Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Help finding engine knock

[ThrottleJockey]

Green Plastic granules.....

... ... used to be Green Plastic oil cooler nozzles! One or more fell out and got chewed up.



Green Plastic granules in the oil... . make sure you replace these.



Your oil filter will pick up most of this but you still need to do 3 or more oil changes right in a row when your back up and running. Maybe flush the engine, too. You know, for grins.

 

[DMannon]

Where/what are the oil cooler nozzles? I just looked through my shop manuals and could only find references to the trans cooler.

 

[CAROLINA CUMMINS]

Oil cooler nozzles spray oil on the underside of the piston, about a inch or so long; they are pressed in a hole in the block underneath(above?) the top main bearing. Kinda wierd they would be loose/broke.



Steven

 

[ata]

Look in your manual under crankshaft installation and you should find what your looking for. (Piston Cooling Nozzles) The crankshaft has to be removed from the block to replace these. The Green Plastic Granules that your talking about must be awful small for them to have gotten through the oil pump pick-up screen. I can see how they got by the oil filter. When the engine oil is cold the oil filter By-Pass valve will open and let some unfiltered oil in to the engine Lub. System.

 

[DMannon]

DC's 2-volume service manual has exactly two sentences referencing piston cooler nozzles under 'Piston Description', nothing in the crank section, nothing about where to find them or replacing them...



Anyways, I got lucky in that Cummins only sent out the connecting rod bearings, so they were able to take a look for the nozzles. He said he sees them all and they seem to be intact. He also said that the nozzles he saw are a dark green and that the plastic he found in the pan was almost a lime green



Wouldn't a missing piston cooler nozzle have an effect on oil pressure, i. e. lower than normal readings?



Mains should be in this morning; I'll get the truck back this PM.

 

[nps]

DC's 2-volume service manual has exactly two sentences referencing piston cooler nozzles under 'Piston Description', nothing in the crank section, nothing about where to find them or replacing them...

He's talking about the Cummins ISB book, not the DC book. The DC book doesn't cover the Cummins engine in much more detail than the owners manual. :-laf

 

[DSiemens]

Do you use a engine oil with a green lid?

 

[ata]

The piston coolers have a raised neck on them that seats them in the block. They break off at the neck and the tube blows out of the hole and the seated part stays in place. Then the oil just sprays everywhere but where it's suppose to go. If any of the piston coolers were broke off you would have a scored cylinder-piston. Normaly the cooler tubes just lay in the bottom of the pan and may or may not come out when you change the oil.

 

[DMannon]

Well, here's the latest... they (San Luis Truck Service) replaced all the main and rod bearings, and the knock is still there. It's in the #5 cylinder; you can crack the injector and the knock stops immediately. Oil pressure is higher with new mains and rods, but it still knocks.



Compression was checked and even across all cylinders; injectors removed and tested for popoff, all good; cooling nozzles are all in place, couldn't tell if they were plugged.



So, I'm trying to decide what to do next. If I pull the head and have a scored cylinder, I'm figuring at best I have to pull the pan, remove the piston, hone a cylinder, replace piston, new rings, which leaves me wondering why it scored in the first place. If it's a nozzle, I need to drop the crank, right?... . then do I just go ahead and rebuild the whole thing? At that point I start thinking about buying a complete drop in. It doesn't seem like anyone has long blocks for these, or short blocks for that matter.



I can get a complete built however I want it with a NEW block from Performance Engineering in PA, or a complete from Cummins in CA; both about the same price.



Any advice?



BTW, if anyone needs service in the San Luis Obispo, CA area, the guys at SL Truck service are great, and honest as the day is long. They only charged me for parts, no labor, replacing the rod and main bearings and hours of diagnostic.

 

[J. Steve]

Ugh, I know how discouraging that must be for you to have gotten it back together and still have the problem. Good luck with whatever route you choose.



Mine is still knocking, and it's going on week 2 sitting in the lot at the dealership without the hood even coming up. We're currently in a dispute of whether they will still honor my warrantee or not. Prior to me installing a PowerMax III, they stated that it's ok that I put it on, and they would still honor my warrantee, and the worst case scenario would be if there was "hardcore proof" that the modification caused the failure (if there ever was one) that it may void my warrantee. Now that I'm having a problem they are saying it's out of their hands, and that the manual states "any unapproved modification may void the warrantee" and possibly, regardless of any proof of the source of the failure, my warrantee will be void. As far as I am concerned they have approved this modification, based on the conversation I had with them as stated above, and furthermore this is almost surely an oiling problem, with a slim chance of the PowerMax being the culprit.



I'm torn weather if I take this as far as I can, and they still deny my warrantee, should I A) have them do the repairs (at what they said could be done at a discounted rate) anyway, B) take it to a specialized repair shop, or C) attempt to diagnose the source of the problem my self, and go from there. Any input?



I’ll keep you all posted, mainly about the source of the knocking to assist any others with a similar problem.

 

[ata]

If was me I would just pull it and rebuild the whole thing. Heres why if the Rod&Main bearings were bad so are the Cam Bearings and more then likely have a plugged Cooling Nozzle. Second you have all that Green stuff still in the Block and Head that needs to be Hot Tanked and everything else Cleaned. It would be cheaper to go get a used motor but what would you have a USED MOTOR. Sorry about your problem. Did you ever find out what the Green stuff is-was.

 

[DMannon]

If you can't get it done under warranty, I would stay away from the dealer. I've been down that road with two other CTDs and have had nothing but misery. Plus you'll probably pay more there than other routes.



I'm trying to decide which route to take with mine. The shop I took it to said if I was going to put in a new engine to drive this til it dies. I'm not sure that's such a good idea; then I might not have a serviceable core and get charged for that.



I found some apparently new motors on Ebay, auction # 8069495100. Has anyone had any experience with Al's Diesels Only? He's got good feedback... Will that motor work with my truck? What's the filter box box on top?

 

[HeavyHauler]

Back to the top!



DMannon - please keep us updated on this problem. I'm very interested in learning the outcome of this. Do you think you will spend any more money and time on diagnostics or just scrap the motor and put in a new one?

 

[DMannon]

After a lot of thought and looking at prices of different options, here's how it's ending (for me at least).



I haven't got the skills or the resources to do a complete rebuild. It was going to be $8000 to do two cylinders from the local Cummins shop. A rebuilt complete motor is $8000 from Cummins Ventura, plus install labor, which I could probably handle, with minor crying to you all... cheapest complete I found was Rhino at $6500, and Shawn from PA was $7000, but no one would vouch for either of them.



I'd have had ~$16. 5k into it plus the new motor... so I went out and bought an '02 with 80k miles and I'm going to sell this one as is. I'll swap out the power seats and camper tie-downs and eat the difference. I'll probably market it locally, through the shop that did the rod's and mains, and through TDR. Anyone interested? Have I got a deal for you today only...



Live and learn. But it does start a new thread...

 

[J. Steve]

DMannon, what did you find out about the rebuilds you found on ebay (here) that made them not an option anymore?

 

[DMannon]

These are a common rail engine. Take a look at the injection side, the exhaust side, the electronics, and the valve cover. Nothing's the same. I picked up a Cummins ISB brochure at the shop the other day. They make these motors as replacements for ling-lived fleets, like UPS. They're not rebuilds; they're new.



I read about these motors originally in a thread about Shawn from Erie, PA (Performance Engineering, also on eBay). Somebody else in that thread said these motors wouldn't fit our trucks. It'd cool if they would. My guess is they'd be a lot less problematic than the VP44.



I emailed the seller and asked if they'd fit and got no response. No further responses from the guys here at TDR, either.

 

[Extreme1]

Did the shop check all the injector or just #6 before the noise was confirmed to be coming from #5? If not, I'd swap a couple injectors just to check.

 

[DMannon]

All the injectors were pulled and checked for popoff pressure; they were fine. 5 & 6 were swapped to other cylinders to see if the problem followed; it didn't. Compression is even across all cylinders, and no blowby or smoke.



So as it stands, rods and mains were replaced, oil pressure is up, clatter in 5 stops as soon as injector is cracked open with a wrench. Clatter quiets a little once the temp reaches 160+.

 

[J. Steve]

Well, believe it or not the dealership isn't going to pull through on this one, against their prior promise to honor my warrantee. Surprise, surprise . So, it's time for me to explore some other options and I could sure use some input.



My questions are based on the findings of DMannon. If I end up in the same leaky boat as far as having a scored cylinder or two, and if his quoted repair costs are close to what I would expect to find, then I would be interested in exploring some other repair options first:



My first question is about the differences between a 12v and a 24v block. It looks like maybe a realistic option to buy a block, or a short block, and just make a complete engine out of the rest of the parts off of my 24v (head, turbo etc. ). The 12v blocks/short blocks that I've found are less expensive than the 24v specific ones which is why I would consider this. Also these look less expensive than what it looks like the repairs on mine would cost. Are these similar enough to each other that I could go this route, starting with a 12v short or bare block? Or would I just be opening a can of worms?



Also, can anyone suggest a reputable and fair diesel shop or mechanic in Arizona, preferably in/near Tucson? I would like to have a second quote on what it would take to determine the source of the problem (aside from the dealership) before I start tearing into this my self.



Thanks again in advance for the help.

 

[SLightfoot]

Why are they denying your warranty?



What is their explanation?