Holy smokes! Democraticunderground!

[loncray]

I agree that attacking the Taliban and Al Qaeda (after 9/11) was well done - though I'm willing to bet that President Gore would've done exactly the same thing, with exactly the same public support. I have no problem with our invasion of Afghanistan. My disagreement with this President begins where he preemptively attacks Iraq. I'd feel better if he'd just said "we're going in to take out the Butcher of Baghdad, and finish what Desert Storm started. " Why'd they have to puff up WMD's? Why'd they have to invent (so it appears at this time) a connection to Al Qaeda? Why're they giving so much money on no-bid contracts to Halliburton and Brown & Root? There are so many questions left unanswered by this administration - if they don't get answered satisfactorily I'll bet that history judges this president poorly.

Also, if President Clinton's response to what we knew about Al Qaeda in the 90's was so poor, where was the Republican protest about it? Where were the GOP Congressmen demanding immediate invasion or war? President Clinton's response (missiles) was the limit of what he could get a hostile Congress to support. He didn't have a 9/11 event to give impetus to anything larger than what he did.

 

[RustyJC]

Am I thrilled by everything the Bush administration has done since taking office? Most assuredly not!



Do I see viable alternatives to Bush's policies being offered by the presumptive Democratic candidate(s)? Even more assuredly not! All I'm hearing is pap that effectively turns over the keys to U. S. foreign policy and the use of the U. S. military to the United Nations, and how much their supporters hate Bush!



Looks like W will be getting my vote again in 2004 - by default if nothing else.



Rusty

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by loncray

I - though I'm willing to bet that President Gore would've done exactly the same thing, with exactly the same public support.

Don't bet on it. First Gore would have banned all guns and probably airplanes. But not box cutters.



And then he would have lobbed the last 2 cruise missiles we had, becuase Komrade Clinton had gutted the military, at an empty tent, to appease the war hawks, but being careful not to anger the terrorists further.

 

[loncray]

You mean the military that started getting smaller under President George HW Bush? That one? See, here's why the Bush Haters see justification for their views: even now, the right can't get beyond being Clinton Haters. I'm not a Bush hater, I just think we need a better president. I think there's a middle line between handing the keys over to the UN and going out and attacking other nations on flimsy excuses.

As to the current crop of Democratic candidates, I also don't see any I like as much as President Clinton. Al Sharpton and Carol Mosely-Braun are jokes, and the rest aren't too much better. However, I'm listening to what Senator Kerry and Howard Dean are saying. Senator Lieberman too, though I think he (and Kerry) have probably lost too much momentum. My vote will probably go to Dean, in order to get Bush out of office. I don't see a thing wrong with the Democrats using anger against Bush as a legitimate campaign tactic - they're just learning from the Republicans who used anger against Clinton to defeat Gore. After all, what did Bush really offer that said he was better other'n he wasn't Al Gore?

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by loncray

I think there's a middle line between handing the keys over to the UN and going out and attacking other nations on flimsy excuses... . My vote will probably go to Dean, in order to get Bush out of office.

Do I perceive a disconnect here?



Rusty

 

[loncray]

Where has Howard Dean offered control of the US military and US foreign policy to the UN? And just because the far right thinks the UN has black helicopters all ready to take over the US, doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make the UN a bad thing.

 

[CWebster]

"can you name a single presidential initiative before 9/11/01?"



Actually, ol' George stepped into a mess... the same one he warned everybody about while he was campaigning... overvalued dot-coms + imploding energy companies + previous administrational (is that a word?) slop = stock market crash = everybody's mad as hell = "Dang, I got a lot of stuff to do!" It would be very naive to say that he was jes hangin' wit his boys, chillin'... there was a lot going on.



I agree that Bush is not very polished but the man gets up at 5 everyday, starts work before 7 a. m. , prays for strength and guidance, does what he says he is going to do, and puts some respect back into the Office. I don't know what will come out of his mouth next, but I DO know that if anybody steps out of line and threatens the U. S. , Bush'll knock 'em right back into line. Thats the guy I want as my President.

 

[loncray]

Sure, he was reacting (poorly, in my opinion) to the faltering economy, but what did he do to make things better? Spend our grandchildren's taxes on a tax cut now? I think plenty of Americans and people on this planet respected President Clinton just fine - I think President Bush has lot the respect of much of the world (and a lot of Americans).

 

[RustyJC]

A recent analysis from the Los Angeles Times (not exactly a Conservative rag):

Same goes for the Los Angeles Times: "Howard Dean's presidential rivals offered two distinct lines of argument against the Democratic front-runner on Tuesday, challenging him for opposing the war with Iraq and for having too little foreign-policy experience. Dean took particular heat for his statements that the capture of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein would not make America safer. Some rivals also hit him for being too willing to cede power to the United Nations. "

This analysis was cited in the Washington Post.



Rusty

 

[Jumbo Jet]

loncray - they were nobody's business but his, his family's, and Monica Lewinsky

I don't know if you work for someone else, but if I did that in my office and my boss found out, I think several folks would ask me those questions.



Looking at Hillary, I don't much blame Bill. But he could've at least had the decency to visit Monica at her apartment.



The Oval Office belongs to me and all other American taxpayers. Getting a BJ while talking to other world leaders on the telephone doesn't speak very well for any elected official. Making a mockery out of the Capital staff and members of Congress doesn't play well in my book either.



I'm sure glad someone supports Bill and Al though. It would be terrible to go through life without supporting friends.



Al Gore wouldn't lob an old shoe at a mouse skampering across the floor!

 

[NETim]

I do not wish to engage in a battle of "who's the biggest scumbag". Scumbags exist in both major parties.



No, my beef lies with liberalism in general. I think it corrupts people. Rather than look to themselves and learn self-reliance and the value of hard work, liberalism's message is, simply put, "Want more? Whine more. "



Now I realize that the Democratic Party is not entirely comprised of liberals. However, I bet I couldn't swing a dead cat at the Democratic convention without hitting one (or two. ) I believe that the radical Left controls the Democratic Party. If that wasn't true, why then is Howard Dean, easily the most left of center of all the Dem candidates, leading in the polls?



I am still waiting for the Dems to tell me why I should vote for them. This "Bush is stupid" campaign may feel good, but it don't bring home the groceries.



Given the DNC's historic love of gun control, more taxes and a larger, ever more intrusive government, I can't support them. I seen nothing out of the present day Democratic party to indicate that they've changed at all.



Just curious, which group, the Right or the Left, is more likely to oppose the production of CTD's? Thought so.



Tim

 

[Champane Flight]

Heck

I know you guys won't believe this, but I got kicked off the democraticunderground.com !!!!! Way too conservative I guess. I thought Bush was doing a good job, up to the invasion of Iraq. I do think he has messed up the economy to a point, I believe that the economy will rebound on its own without Uncle Sam getting involved.



My stand on Iraq is more of paranoid power trip on his behalf.

He has also shown America in a very bad light. War should always be a last resort, not a pre-emptive move. The price given to teardown and rebuild a country for a suspicion is too much.



I called a newspaper with 12 anti-American headlines out of 14 a RAG. They booted me.

 

[Sled Puller]

Re: Heck

Originally posted by Champane Flight

I called a newspaper with 12 anti-American headlines out of 14 a RAG. They booted me.

Are you serious?



See, I told you guys he was ok!

LOL

 

[NETim]

Good for you CF! Maybe there's hope for you yet!



Actually, it's good to see people involved, regardless of their leanings. Indifference is the real enemy.



Merry Christmas!



Tim

 

[Boomer II]

WTG CF, hope springs eternal for you yet, LOL.

 

[KBennett]

I just left this on CF's political post:

This is the only Republican I didn't vote for and look what happened to him: Ryan Indicted

Because of this guy Illinois has a Democrat that is a real jerk. I wish the Democrat I voted for made it in, he was a good guy. Thank God I moved to Colorado.



There are scumbags in the Republican party too. Is Bush a scumbag? No Way! Has he gone about the war in Iraq the wrong way? Yes Way! Am I glad Sadaam is captured? Absolutely!



If I don't see anything that would make him lose my trust between now and election day then Bush will have my vote.

 

[Champane Flight]

Happens

I think the only reason that Dean is leading in the polls right now is because of the young peoples vote. All the working Democrats are waiting for the real vote/primaries. Most are going around scratching their heads, saying " Is this the best we can come up with?" There is only one viable canidate, GO CLARK!

 

[CWebster]

"I think plenty of Americans and people on this planet respected President Clinton just fine"



Thats the problem, some people ACCEPT that kind of behavior and justify it based on financial or political gain. The degradation of our national morals is just as important of an issue as the war in Iraq or the economy or any other hot button issue that Democratic candidates can dredge up for headlines. Our President needs to lead us by example, to be the champion of what is right and good in this world, to protect our country and people from any threat in this solar system. George Bush has a strong foundation to work with, has a great team around him, and has the conviction to do what needs to be done. If there was a Democratice alternative with the same credentials, would I consider him? Heck yeah! But, sadly, there isn't.

 

[loncray]

Wait, the right wants us to accept President Bush's behavior in attacking another country (something we've never done before without good justification), which in turn has resulted in hundreds of American deaths, as being more moral than President Clinton getting a BJ? They want us to accept companies formerly headed by the VP of the US getting billions of dollars on no-bid contracts - sounds like justification based on financial gain.

Obviously, your idea of 'national morals' is different than mine - I don't care what the President was doing with his piece of fluff (that's between him and his family) and I think the GOP spent way too many of my dollars (and yours) on trying unsuccessfully to get the guy. That same GOP spent my dollars on ordering 'Freedom Fries' in the House cafeteria, but you want me to believe that's morally right?!? George Bush thinks God is talking to him - that's fine until you remember that Osama bin Laden thinks the same thing.

I don't think President Bush is a scumbag, but I am amused that the right is so up in arms with folks that think he is. After years of "Charlton Heston is MY President", did they really think the American people would just give this President a pass for his behavior? The right set this nation up to tear down the President, now that tearing is going against THEIR President. Bwahahahahahah!

 

[Boomer II]

loncray, 1441, keep that number in mind, it's all the justification for the "continuation" of the war with Iraq, Remember?? They attacked Kuwait, we kicked them out, your hero Bill farted around for 8 years doing NOTHING. My hero W took care of business, deal with it.

BTW, the BJ that your so fond of talking about isn't what your hero Bill got busted for, I believe it was lying under oath.