Here I am

Hot Rod vs. Stock VP44 - What's the difference?

Attention: TDR Forum Junkies
To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.

Thanks, TDR Staff

craazy larry

Any pics of external gate install on ATS manifold?

I mentioned my comp box to the vendor I just ordered from and I did not detect any gasping for air on the other end of the phone. I took that as a good sign... . :-laf When I told them what my setup was, they recommended the HR version. Anything we add is taking a gamble, just part of the adventure I suppose. ;) Please don't misinterpret me on this, I am certainly feeling warranty grief at the moment, and I expect my wife to resume speaking to me soon {joke}. But realistically, buying something high performance we should assume the risk (position?). From what I recall of the thread, Piers went out of his way at his own expense to try and take care of his customer. Unfortunately it became public via TDR and turned a bit nasty. I got the impression that both Piers and his customer lost out on that deal. How detailed should warranty statements on high performance products be? How detailed does "I am my own warranty station" need to be? The main thing is that our vendors of choice do everything possible to support our issues, anything beyond that should get chalked up to "stuff happens". This certainly applies to the cream of the vendor crop such as Piers. "If you can't afford to pay, then be careful how you play" are words of wisdom. Fortunately this is as ideal of a time financially as it could be for me to need a new VP. Otherwise my truck would have been down for a period of time as these items are definitely not cheap. Did my comp box trash my VP, probably not but it certainly added a variable that increased the chances. If my new pump goes bad, I will be disappointed with the vendor and PO'd at myself, but I don't see crying over it, after all it was my choice. Geeze I hope that I am not going to be eating these words anytime soon... :eek:
 
Last edited:
I absolutely agree with all the above - and meant NO inferences against Piers. If we insist on adding power mods to these trucks, risks and responsibilities go with that choice that are OURS alone - so choose wisely, Grasshopper! ;) :D
 
Gary - K7GLD said:
"Not sure but seems to me the pump should be more within its limits as a Hybrid than with a wire tap. "



UMmmm - Pretty much Apples/oranges, since that isn't the basis under discussion - whether or not the wire piercing is more or less dangerous or stressful than placing more load on the VP-44 drive cam hasn't really been the issue...



But personally, *I* can't see why a respectable pump rebuilder would ignore some of the known mechanical weaknesses inside the VP-44, and instead focus purely on adding more stress due to more aggressive cam profile combined with higher fuel volume. It's much like increasing the compression, bore and stroke on an engine KNOWN to have a weak crankshaft - why not ALSO install a stronger crank while doing the other mods...





Gary hits on an interesting point.



About two years ago, I came up with an idea that NOT A SINGLE VENDOR has seen fit to try.



So there's this guy named Joe Schubeck, a well-known former drag racing star, and now running his own company making innovative engines and products for them.



One of his more interesting products is a valve lifter (or tappet) where the face is made from an EXTREMELY hard ceramic composite material. This stuff is just a tick harder than silicon carbide, and just softer than diamond, IIRC.



Anyway, the advantages of such a lifter in a sliding-tappet valvetrain are numerous. First, no break-in is needed at all. Drop in a new cam and go racing. Second, the cam/lifters last a LONG time-- there is practically no wear at all! Imagine running 100K miles with a mechanical cam and having NO change in valve lash whatsoever!



He's also developing a roller lifter that has no needle bearings-- just a super-hard composite wheel supported entirely by pressurized oil. It's practically a lifetime roller cam setup!



All this just to say that Schubeck has been turning things upside down in the valvetrain world with his really trick composites.



So how hard would it be to get some VP44 parts made of this composite?? Why not a super-duper cam ring or follwer assembly made from this composite? Maybe you could just coat a metal part with this composite, instead of making the whole piece from it?



The bottom line is that there ARE improvements that can be made to the VP in terms of stress handling and development.





The problem is that no one wants to spend $3K on super-trick mechanical internals only to have a pump die when the On-board PC board craps out.



More on the best valvetrain components ever designed can be found below:



http://www.schubeckracing.com/





Justin
 
Last edited:
Gary - K7GLD said:
"Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary - K7GLD

why not ALSO install a stronger crank while doing the other mods...



========



Tolerances.


__________________



And WHY would merely providing BETTER and stronger materials in known weak and failure prone areas affect tolerances? I'm not (necessarily) talking about BIGGER components, just ones made of better stuff!



They don't affect the tolerance. The tolerances the parts have to be held to is why the aftermarket "pump builders" don't upgrade anything else.
 
Straight6Jeff said:
For me I'm seriously considering the p7100 conversion if my next pump fails in another 30k



Atta-boy, Jeff!



The distributor section of the VP-44 has parts with obscene tolerances... that's where the vast majority of the mechanical failures occur - usually from fuel starvation and eventual lack of lubrication. The electronic failures are seemingly random in some cases...



Matt
 
HoleshotHolset said:
Atta-boy, Jeff!



The distributor section of the VP-44 has parts with obscene tolerances... that's where the vast majority of the mechanical failures occur - usually from fuel starvation and eventual lack of lubrication. The electronic failures are seemingly random in some cases...



Matt



Matt,

Heat is the number one cause of the electronic failures. The fuel is meant to provide more then just lubrication. Larry
 
In a case like mine, wehre i have always had good pressue and flow, and no performance mods, I am very discouraged that both pumps have only lasted about 33k a piece. In talking with a local pump rebuilder, the guy stated taht the vp-44 keeps him in business. Some pumps go 100k some go 20k.



I definitely think the p7100 is a viable option for me simply becsue of the reliability.
 
My brother has 195k on his original VP-44 tapped since about 20k. He must be one of the lucky ones. I have about 50k on mine, hoping for the best.
 
I had a couple of people recommend buying a new unit verses a rebuilt replacement pump. I was worried that I would get a new unit with the same deficient parts, I suppose it is dependant on where you source a rebuilt unit, but I know of one and assume other vendors that rebuild are upgrading components as part of their service.
 
"I had a couple of people recommend buying a new unit verses a rebuilt replacement pump. I was worried that I would get a new unit with the same deficient parts, I suppose it is dependant on where you source a rebuilt unit, but I know of one and assume other vendors that rebuild are upgrading components as part of their service. "



As I understand it, there HAVE been upgrades and improvements made to the pumps - and even the rebuilders probably install upgraded components - but the BIG unknown variable, is the electronics portion. THAT part can leave you alongside the road no matter how well the rest of the mechanical parts have been upgraded. I know *I* sure would hate to pay big bucks for rebuilt/upgraded mechanical parts, and STILL be left with used electronics that are YEARS old and with 100+ thousand miles on it!
 
Do 'they' just fix what's broken, or upgrade known deficient parts... Seems someone at a reputable shop could do well by addressing those issues while remanufacturing the units. I think many would pay a bit more for a pump with some TLC added, hot-rodded or not. Seems they just need to tell you how far they went with the rebuild in fairly specific terms.

As we all know, ASSUMING can lead to problems...
 
If the tolerances are as tight as people say, the way the VP is mounted should be important to its longevity. I would think just a slight case flex would cause disaster. The early VP trucks have a POS dinky bracket that many members including myself have found to be broken when we install new VP's. I wonder if the bracket failure is contributing to the VP failure. If so it would make install critical. It would be easy to get the brackets out of alignment and overtighten one of the mounting bolts causing a tiny twist or something. Just thinking outloud.
 
I do not know whether they were mechanical or electrical, as both were replaced under warranty. I had the 0216, dead peddle, surge. The dealer who replaced both of them said they do not go into what failed, just if it failed.
 
"I do not know whether they were mechanical or electrical, as both were replaced under warranty. I had the 0216, dead peddle, surge. The dealer who replaced both of them said they do not go into what failed, just if it failed. "



According to the pattern of failures, electrical VP-44 failures seem to give random and erratic problems and codes, while mechanical ones leave the owner pretty much dead in the water...



And it seems to me, there are more of the random and erratic "failures" than the catastrophic mechanical ones - all the more reason to be sorta wary of MECHANICALLY rebuilt pumps that still might have potential electronic failure just around the corner...
 
Electrical failures

Sure would like to give a VP with a known electrical failure to a company I use at work. They repair speed drives, PLc's, anyhing with a "green board" in it and the cost is very reasonable. I'll bet they could fix one, maybe even improve it. These guys are some real nerds :-laf
 
Back
Top