Here I am

how do the hotshot guys legally get through dot?

Attention: TDR Forum Junkies
To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.

Thanks, TDR Staff

Trailer brake woes

Kingsland GA area fuel?

Originally posted by B'Gate

I think I am repeating myself here, but from the responses I keep seeing, I am not sure if others understand this or think that everyone has to comply with Alabama's law.



From the research I have done, and previous postings from experts, including a judge, the way I understand it is that a state can only enforce against drivers with that state's drivers license IF the law is more restrictive than the federal law. If I pull my 16k load into Alabama, and stay under the 26k commercial limit, and I am not overweight on the trailer or the truck, they can not legally issue me a ticket for anything related to weight, license, or medical requirements, because I am legal in Texas, have a valid Texas drivers license to pull the load in Texas, and am complying with the federal weight and license requirements.



The same goes for California which has a different drivers license class for pulling non-commercial trailers but exceeding 10k pounds, I think is the weight limit. Since Texas has no such license to issue, nor medical exam for such, then it would be impossible for me to meet California or Alabama laws. What are they going to do? Tell me I can't drive in their state?



Well on the first part it comes down to what is the load? Texas law does not follow you, Like someone who comes into Texas from LA they must comply with US-DOT laws and would have to stop and weigh station if REGISTERED for over 10,000 and commercial. This is regardless if you have a load or not.



On second part there are 5 types of licesne

A truck/trailer over 26,001 with trailer over 10,000#

B truck/trailer over 26,001 with trailer under 10,000

C vehicle under 26,000

D vehcile under 10,000 (not all states have this license)

M motorcycle
 
Eric_77, I think you proved one of my points. I did not have the license requirement table at hand . I have a class C license in Texas. Because I am not commercial (over 26k pounds), Class A and B don't apply.



However, I question your statement about a medical. I don't know of any means of obtaining a Medical for a commercial license if I don't have a commercial license. Even though my trailer is registered for 16K, why would I need, and how would I get a Medical. I have a pilots license and in order to fly have to maintain a Medical. However, if I did not have a pilots license, I would not be able to obtain a medical for flying.



It was my understanding when the DOT started this requirement and only allowed one drivers license, that the medical is tied to the commercial drivers license as is the medical for pilots. Who is going to check for the medical. Since class C does not require a medical, what is the meaning of a medical as you and others here have stated is required when towing above 10K?
 
Okay guys:



I looked in my 1992 manual and it said that the GCWR is 16,000 #. That isn't very much, I know the old Dodge is capable of more than that. If you had a dually, trailer, and full size backhoe/bulldozer that would be more than what the manual rates. There are people towing more than rated all of the time:rolleyes: Also, it said that our trailer hitches from the factory are only rated for 6,000 #. The reason I'm asking these are that my buddy would like me ot haul a John Deere 830 Diesel home for him. I think it weighs ~ 8,000 #. So, I guess that leaves out pulling with a bumper hitch. I'll have to find someone with a flatbed gooseneck. Anyone know how much a 92 W250 weighs?



Thanks,

John
 
Since my last posting, I have researched and read the rules and regulations of the DOT's FMCRS - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations - that relate to licensing and medical standards and requirements. For those who want to read it for them selves, one of the reg's to look at is 49CFR 391. 43(f). It proves my point.



There is no requirement for a medical certificate if you are not driving a CMV - Commercial Motor Vehicle. The latest revision, which I did not know about, does allow an individual with a NON-CDL to obtain a medical certificate, primarily in anticipation of recieving a Commercial Drivers License. The sole purpose of the Medical is to prove physical fitness to drive a commercial vehicle, and to give them a way to stop you from driving CMV's if you get a DWI or have other medical problems come up. Other than a few of the physical requirements, the purpose and use of the medical is no different than for a pilot.



Secondly, it clarified the 10k trailer requirement that some seem to think requires a CDL. So long as the total weight does not exceed 26k pounds, the weight of the trailer does not matter. The 10k comes in to play only when the weight of the tow vehicle plus the weight of a trailer that is less than 10k puts you over the 26k minimum.



This is the federal law. I don't need a medical with a GCVW of 24800 pounds. Perhaps some states do require a medical, but Texas and the DOT don't therefore I am legal in all states.
 
imho, warning, a novel

lets face it guys, pickup trucks really confuse the dot . ive been fighting what all of you guys have been discussing for the last 15 years. the hotshotters that have appeared in the last 10 years or so are part of the reason for the added scrutiny on all pickups used interstate, "commercially" the logic behind hotshot express was why pay the large motor carriers the high freight bill, mileage, etc. to transport a tractor, car, or anything undersized, when a pickup and trailer could transport the same load cheaper? what everyone needs to realize is these guys are indeed "for hire motor carriers" need the proper registration, load documentation, fuel permits, apportioned tags , just like any trucking firm. the difference between them and all of us that transport our loads across state lines is the thorn in our side. most of us are definitely in persuance of commerce when we are working across state lines, but would you consider youself a common carrier? no, then what exactly are we? okay, heres what ive learned from the va, sc, md {by the way mr miller, i think youve run across someone who didnt study his dot manual very well before becoming an officer} nc, west va, ga, ky , delaware, and most importantly, the usdot, the men in black that sometimes invade you state weigh stations and make life hell for all of us. first of all if you stay within your state lines, you are only under that states dot regs. if you go interstate, you must comply to whatever that state's regs are plus federal regs. unless you gcvwr over 26001, you guys that haul for pleasure can stop reading right now and go to another post, none of this applies to you . if every tt stopped at weigh stations it would shut down the transport system. for those of you with 2500's , you just lucked out also, unless your trailer gwr is 17000 lbs, and i hope it isnt. the consensus that ive heard over the years, [and ive heard every imaginable combination of what our trucks should have to make them "legal" is really simple. actually the regs in the usdot manual are simple if you read the fine print. first, take the gvwr on the inside door panel of your truck {duallys remember this because it is over the magic # of 10100 lbgs} the take the gvwr of you trailer,{the mnf tag is stamped somwhere on that trailer by law} if your over 26001 lbs, when you combine the two, congratulations, you are now the proud owner of a commercial vehicle. if you stay in your homestate, maybe, if you travel into other states, definitely. under 26001 combined but still travel interstate, logbook, med card. by the way a dot physical is not something that you need a cdl to have, none of our guys have cdls, and we all have med cards. the only difference between a dot phys and a private phys is the cost, about 100 dollars more. that is to take care of the paperwork that the doc's office has. drug test? nope, not unless you are applying for a cdl or your employer asks for one, another $100. next, register your truck at the highest gcvwr under 26001 that you need, the higher this amount the more it costs you, and thats the revenuers at work. as far as the trailer registration goes make this as light as legally possible, remember, they are going to pay much more attention to the drive unit's registration because its usually where the tax money comes from. these next pearls of wisdom really apply to everyone that pulls. mounted fire ext, safety triangles[not flares, flares and a diesel spill dont mix] extra fuses,{yep thats on the inspection list for a comm veh] dot reflective tape on the trailer, working breakaway assembly, tires, lights, inspection stickers, no alcohol or drugs , no weapons, not one but two safety chains, common sense stuff. if you are going down the interstate with half of your lights out of order, or your load flopping in the wind, you are alot more likely to catch the eye of a bored dot officer, waiting for his next meal. weigh stations, logbooks, med cards, et al are usually up to what that particular group of dot troopers find is worth their time and effort. the cdl isnt a big deal, the test written and road, is hard and strict, and the pts against your driving record are more severe, but overall it makes sense. there are alot of people out ther that have alot more rig than they need, and the motorcoaches out there driven by folks that have no idea what it takes to control their ride is a good example. the cdl was originated to prevent just anyone from driving an 80000 truck . remember when drivers used to carry five or six drivers lics, and when one got revoked they had four more? well, thats changed, and the way all of us that pull alot of weight, with our trucks have changed. my advice to all of y'all is simple. try what ive told you. we still have guys that work with me that never stop at weigh stations, and they have never been stopped, i do and sometimes have regretted it. when you go into one you are a sitting duck , you have now classified youself as commercial, and when the judge asks why you pulled in to begin with youve shot yourself in the foot. common sense, these guys really dont want to hassle you, but we are fair game and good revenue source. take the fine, fight it in court, sometimes you win sometimes you lose, we've always won. impoundment is a different story. you will definitely lose in that situation, regardless of the circumstances. :)
 
Packman, I have a couple of questions:

1. Why do your drivers have medicals but no commercial drivers license? A medical is meaningless without a CDL according to the federal DOT regs. I know that an employer is responsible for knowing the physical condition of his drivers, thus the medical, but I understood it also requires a Cdl.

2. From what you wrote and the the fact you don't have CDL's, you are pulling under 26001 pounds.

3. If a driver is employeed as a professional driver, doesn't he have to have a CDL even if towing under 26001#?

4. You mentioned no weapons allowed. I have not seen that in the regs. In Texas, Ark, Okla, and many other states, a person can obtain a concealed weapon permit. I am not aware of any regulations preventing the carrying while driving with a CDL so long as the state you are in has a reciprocal agreement with the state issuing the license. What do you know about this?
 
B'Gate you are confusing licenses with rules and regs. two different separte things. You can have a vehicle that is over 26k but it is not CMV, RV for instance that would require a class B license but NOT a Class B CDL. The 10k is for commercial carriers NOT Commercial Motor Vehicles. Keep running over 10K interstate without med adn log book and you WILL be cited, it will catch up with you. If you really want to know the answers don't ask here call US DOT they will tell you want the laws are and what you HAVE to do.
 
Don't forget insurance requirements.

Trailer insurance is another area that minimal users may not have fully covered. I had been assuming that my trailers were covered by my regular car insurance policy. This was true in the past when I was more apt to have a light duty utility trailer. The company would not covered theft, etc. but always said the liability was covered.



While researching different options for my farm insurance, I was told otherwise. This agent told me that my gooseneck flatbed should be covered by a commercial policy even though I had the registration down rated to 10k.



Anyone got anything to add to this?
 
to reply to some questions. we have three cdl drivers and the other eight have a regular drivers lic. in the state of va, we have only two lics, commercial and private. in our neighboring state of nc they have three. so in va. , my lic lets me pull anything gcvwr under 26001. in nc. , if you have a trailer that is over 10100 lbs, there is a lic between private and cdl, confused yet? again the clearest picture that i got was from a fed dot man, along with a maryland dot officer. about three of our rigs were going through harpers ferry, when all of a sudden, a maryland dot man was standing in the middle of the road, pointing us into a large turn-out that used to be an old weigh station. there we encountered maryland, west va. , and us dot boys on a safety check. the feds were giving the state boys a session on how to check for safety violations, and our three rigs were ripe for the picking. it ended up being very informative and even humorous at times. we had so many violations, i thought they would run out of paper. luckily they only gave us warnings, and at the end of the whole ordeal, i got a pretty good idea of what we need to have to be legal.

making a living crossing state lines in a dually? 10500 lbs on your door panel plus the gvwr of the trailer [lets say 15000 lbs as a good example] you are still commercial, but since you dont exceed the magic gcvwr of 26001 you dont need a cdl. confused again? me too. you do require a med card, showing proof of a phys every two years, but it doesnt have to be a dot phys, which is more expensive, a copy of your private phys will do just fine. confusing again. logbook, yes if you are operating 150, not 100 airmiles, from your home base, interstate. no logbook, or an out of date logbook can get you impounded for at least 12 hours, no fun at all. ive carried a logbook for 10 years now, and when you read the instructions on how to log you realize how little it applys to most of us. as far as weapons go, if you have a concealed permit, which logic says most truckers should, the reason for a con permit in the first place is to protect people that carry alot of cash etc. and that makes sense. its the unpermitted weapons that some of us carry that can get you fried if you have a cdl. or are considered commercial in other ways, as ive tried to explain. from what ive seen, the usdot is in the process of finally seperating us from the big trucks and the private rvers. in the meantime theres going to be a lot of confusion as to where those of us in business, going interstate , fit in. one last thing. if you haul your loads interstate, commercial ins is costly, but a must. also you need dot #s, visible from 100 feet, with co name, and address, including town and state. it all sounds like a big deal, but really its simple. we have magnetic signs that we put on our trucks when we cross state lines and take off when we get back to va. if your operations keep you in your own state dont sweat it you dont need usdot #s because youre intrastate. of course all of that goes out the window when you are lic over 26001, whether local or not, another reason to stay with your pickup and not move up to a heavier class truck, unless you have to, in that case start reading your cdl manual. i know that ive confused things more here, but the only way to find out for sure is to ask. and ive been trying to find out for quite a while with little luck.
 
Eric_77, you have confused the issue for me. I am not a "commercial carrier", am not driving a "commercial vehicle", am not towing for hire, only towing my personally owned trailer for personal use, therefore based on the rules as I have detailed above, I am not required to have a medical nor a log book, so why do you say I am going to get a citation. Just because I tow a 15k load does not make me a "commercial carrier" and especially does not make my vehicle a commercial vehicle because it is under 26001#.



If you have specific information that contradicts the statements I have made then please give a detail answer and reference the points I have made and laws I have quoted so that I can call my sources back and find out why I am being given mis-information. I certainly don't want to be in violation when I tow interstate. As I said before, I have researched this subject extensively both on the internet and by talking to the Texas Dept. of Public Safety (highway patrol) officers that enforce these specific laws and rules for commercial carriers and commercial drivers.



AS for the insurance question, the rules vary from state to state. In Texas, so long as the trailer is personally owned and towed for personal use, the liability and un-insured motorists coverage of the towing vehicle extends to the trailer, and I can purchase comprehensive coverage (theft and collision) as an add on very in-expensively. I collected on un-insured insurance when one of my trailers was rear-ended and damaged a couple of years ago.
 
Packman, that was a very good explanation and I followed what you were saying. You were posting about the same time I was so my previous message did not reference your response. I was not aware that you could drive for income without having a CDL. Texas requires a CDL if you are earning a living driving, although there may be some un-published exceptions as you explained you found. Fortunately, none of this applies to me because I do not tow for income, only for personal use, although I did have a commercial license years ago when I was driving stake-beds and bob-tails, but discontinued it when I moved to Colorado and they would not transfer it, and I was no longer driving for hire.
 
Good subject matter.

This topic always brings in good responses. It would be nice if each state kept up to date info on their web sites but they don't. In the case of Pennsylvania, not at all. What is it? Keep us in the dark to make more bucks?



I just this weekend sold my 14k gooseneck after evaluating my needs. In the two years that I had it, I never used it's full length of 25 feet. I found that for most everything I did, a 20' deck would have been just fine. Several times, I could have used more weight capacity though so I have considered going to a ~20k trailer. Then I thought about all the ramifications so decided not. For those "weighty" occasions, I'll just have to call my buddy with the drop deck.



I am going to look for the lightest 20 foot deck with a gross rating that will give me max carrying capacity.



For those who want to know more, see this site by the way. http://www.fmcsa. dot.gov/links.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
B'Gate sorry I got you confused with Rdavidson who was pulling a Bobcat. The twist in determining weather you need logs and med is "furthearnce of commerce" If it is 100% recreation then no problem until 26001#. If your trailer and rig are not for a business use no problem but if the truck/trailer or ANY part of what you are hauling is for business then you get nailed; writing a book about where to go on a RV vacation boom you are in "commerce" and as such you fall under US Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration rules and laws. You do not have to be hauling a "load" for hire to be considered commercial.



Oh by the way Texas does not follow US-DOT they have a more lax restriction for intrastate travel commercial carriers under 26,001 do not need log or med.
 
another example that i like to cite about interstate regs is this. two 3500's pulling race cars across state lines, identical trucks trailers and loads. the are stopped by the dot. one claims only to be racing for trophies and bragging rights, the other is racing for the purses, which one is commercial? right, thats how they get you. the same can be true for a farmer taking his tractor across state lines for repair. is this in the "persuance of commerce"? it could be for a hardcore trooper. farmers and driver salesmen[which i consider our drivers to be] also have exemptions that are listed in the usdot regs. but abuse of these exemptions , and i have to say , our co is guilty of this , have in the past been winked at, but no longer. if you have a farm use tag or a farm vehicle tag, pulling in another state over 150 airmiles from home, watch out you are going to get nailed. taking your horses for a trail ride in another state, youre fine. taking them to sell in another state, youre commercial. use common sense. again this only applies to pickups that meet the weight criteria that weve discussed before. the point is to be smart. that dot man has no idea what you r intentions are is his state and will try to nail you down by asking simple questions that will classify youre vehicle one way or the other. just be careful if you consistently have to travel by the same weigh stations. beleive it or not , they can catch on pretty quick, and if and when you get caught in a little white lie, uh=oh. :D
 
Qrtrhrs, Sorry I've missed most of the fun. Our server has been down for about five days. It just came back up. Just a thought on your trailer purchase. A friend of mine who uses a truck (15,500#) and a trailer (10,000#) GVWR told me he actually had the trailer de-rated from 16,000 to 10,000 to avoid alot of the DOT problems. If you find a manufacturer who's trailer you like contact them about ordering what you want the way you want it. As you mentioned you don't need the heavy trailer all the time but just in case you decided to grab something heavy you won't trash your trailer. Also, I was able to de-rate my tractor registration and that may be all you have to do. An X5 tag in ALABAMA is legal to 55,000#. According to the schedule they use to asses road use tax in ALABAMA you have to start paying road use tax at 55,000#. The nice young lady at the tag window told me that she could reduce my GVWR on my registration to 54,999# thus avoiding the road use tax.
 
We must be nuts

Packman, let's sell these stupid trucks, climb on the bikes and get the heck out of here. Somebody else needs to take over these headaches.
 
packman,



Yep, I heard the race car story from a friend who is into drag racing.



My wife and I will probably start showing horses again next year what with three new foals this year. The ultimate goal is of course to make them worth more but I would never admit that if questioned. I have magnetic signs to advertise my farm and my stallions. When I go across state lines, those signs get changed to only identify the farm and location. I never saw something like a dually with a gooseneck horse trailer on the scales. That could be kind of interesting. Some horses can get pretty rowdy kicking the walls and all. I have a farm exemption sticker on my dump truck but use a regular plate on the dually so mileage is no barrier.



RDavidson,



I did indeed have my trailer derated from 14k down to 10k. Very common here in Pennsylvania. Like packman has said though, these combo's are being looked at. It does not take much to get overweight and the fines are steep. I usually did most of my "heavy work" on a weekend. One saturday, I have 5 tons of hay on, going down the road what do I see? Looked like dam near the whole battallion of troopers having a standoff. Good thing they were preoccupied. They ended up plugging the guy by the way.
 
I have a warranty/insurance question in regards to using the F350's or 3500's in excess of their combined grosses. I understand the principal of keeping the truck below it's gross of 11. 5 and the trailer under 15K in order to be under the 26K, but how does this alleviate the going over the combined of 20K. The States may say it is okay, but what about the fine print in every insurance policy which says we are not to operate the vehicle in a manner it was not intended for. . ie... way over the combined rating. The manufacturers certainly would not "knowingly" warrant a vehicle with a drivetrain issue which was towing 26K pounds all day long. They are not designed for that... even if the engines can do it and the trailer brakes can stop it. I am not beating on you guys, I am just curious since the PSD below and the 38' Montana 5th wheel I routinely tow exceeds the 20K by about 2K lbs... . CJ
 
CJ, I wonder the same thing. That would be an easy out for the insurance co if someone wanted to push it..... Weight wise with a full load of fuel and 34ft tripple slide 5ver I am at the fine point to of being roughly 1k over on the 20k limit... . Then again we see 1/2 ton and light 3/4 ton trucks pulling loads that appear questionable also. So where does one draw the fine line of being responsible for total weight and equipment limitations. If one mentions some sort of CDL license requirement or DOT inspections for campers or motorhomes then that opens another can of worms.
 
It is not only an easy way out for the insurance company it seems like a real good way to get sued by someone who may get hit. Maybe insurance can be purchased for this combo, but they usually require the vehicle to be used in a manner it was built for. Exceeding the combined by 30% would seem to go against that. Are you guys insuring for this or simply insuring the truck and hoping the insurance company never knows the better?? It would not take a trained accident investigator very long to figure out if you were overloaded or not..... and they do look at combined. What are your thoughts???... CJ
 
Back
Top