HX40 Superturbo

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OK OK,
To try to put this in to text is a challange to say the least but here goes.
Engine Idles and revs smoother and easier in neutral, I suspect this is from the 18. 5cm2 exhaust housing.
Throttle response really suffered untill 2300 or so, then pulled very very strong to 3000.
Towing down the road 80 mph, EGT was averaging 1000 degrees with boost from 10-15 lbs. where normally I would see 700 degrees and boost is 20-30 lbs.
Boost response is very slow compared to the stock turbo, this strongly affects driveability in town and towing.
Fuel milage dropped 3+ mpg towing, I got 9. 4, I usually get 12. 7 with the stock turbo.
Power above 2300 and heavy throttle was very impressive.
I raced a 99 Dodge 1500 4x4 sport with a 360 V8 from an 80 MPH roll, he had 1 snomobile in the bed and I was pulling a 4 place enclosed with 4 snomobiles, I walked away untill 110 mph then I let off. SCARY
This turbo is definitely to big for this engine in current form for operation below 2300.
I had to loosen the AFC spring all the way to get anything near acceptable acceleration.
We will have to see what the 16cm2 equipped HX40 will do.
I expect it will be a pretty awsome combo.

Ted Jannetty



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Ted Jannetty, Owner President Jannetty Racing Enterprises Inc.
97 3500 4x4 club cab 5spd. RED, JRE stage 3 power kit, JRE 4" exhaust
JRE 1/2 inch fuel system, Cummins 300 hp injectors, Prime loc,
Cummins chrome kit, US Gear 20% over drive, 3. 54 posi, Autometer
gauges, boost, and Pyrometer, BD exhaust brake.
97 Ski-Doo 670 turbocharged
99 Honda Forman 450 ES

 

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Piers,

So do I read this right, you take a housing & modify it yourself?

 

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It's a new Holset turbo, we modify the exhaust wastegate control so it will bolt on inplace of the factory HX35 without any modifications other than a 4" head pipe. BD already made a 4" remote mount, air or vacuum operated, exhaust brake that is the same price as the regular turbo mount brake, so for anyone wanting an exhaust brake there is no extra cost. As for a big power loss under 2300 rpm's I can only say a lot must depend on just what power level you're at & how your truck is set up, mine responds real nice at lower rpm's under light throttle & if you get on it, you never see those low rev's again. As for higher egt's, sure you're going to have higher egt's with 10-15lbs boost compared to 20-30lbs. At the other end of the scale though, 38lbs boost [ stk. turbo with 14 housing ] = 1800+ pyro temps on a good full throttle pull just past the 125mph mark, now same fueling & HX40 is pushing 48lbs boost and the pyro just nudging 1500 and your over 130mph. This turbo is not for everyone, but the lunatics amongst us do love it #ad
#ad
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Piers

 

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Response improvement just off idle that was noted with the Superturbo in test Rams was not noted with the HX35 and 18. 5 cm2 housing on those trucks, with either 3" or 4" exhaust. Therefore I interpreted the gain as being due to the overall lack of restriction with the Superturbo setup. Previously, even with removing the "usual" restrictions from the turbine housing and exhaust system (by going to an 18. 5 housing and 4" exhaust with nothing but pipe in it), the turbo housing had a significant exhaust restriction from its small outlet of about 2. 4" diameter, plus whatever restriction existed from the size of the "pinwheel" and its hub. It seemed that the turbo housing needed a bigger outlet, plus perhaps other changes, to remove this last constriction. We are still using a turbine housing that is small in cross sectional area compared to the outlet of the turbo. Even with the small outlet area of the HX35, the 18. 5 cm2 housing cross sectional area is only 76% as large! Therefore, it was not expected that the 18. 5 cm2 housing would be "too big" with a properly sized turbo outlet (i. e. one designed for a 4" pipe).

I cannot explain the lack of response in Ted's Ram to the Superturbo, with the information supplied. I would start with checking fuel pressure to be sure the lift pump, return valve, and return hose are all OK. Also be sure the catalytic conveter is free flowing. At first it would seem that if the torque plate (I don't know the characteristics of the JRE plate) is too lean, that could cause the lack of response due to insufficient fuel for spool up. However, the excellent response in other Rams even with low fuel mode suggests that the greatly enhanced gas expansion characteristics of the Superturbo and 4" exhaust compensated well for the relatively large 18. 5 cm2 housing, even for lean torque plates. The 300 hp injectors do give a bit of a "sag" in the midrange, about 1500-1900 rpm, with rich torque plates, but I cannot diagnose with the available information whether they might be contributing to the lack of response. Therefore, no performance part deficiency comes to mind to explain the lack of response in Ted's Ram. We will make the assumption that his observations and written descriptions of them are understood by us exactly as he intends. [Philosophically, there is always room for differences in semantics where one person's words are not understood by another in the same way they were intended. ]

I have found that there are several "plateaus" of performance with the Rams. These plateaus represent different levels of modification, or degrees of sophistication. To reach a new plateau it is necessary to change paradigms, thought processes, and basic assumptions to a certain extent. The HX40 represents one facet of a paradigm that is perhaps unfamiliar to most Rammers.

Each Ram is a bit different, the prior modifications are different, and the orientation of the owner/modifier is crucial to accurate, complete observation and assessment. Nothing negative is implied or intended here. Different observations and interpretations can resemble the seven blind men describing an elephant. Each observer catches a part of the whole, and each part is a bit different.

Enjoy Ramming and Ram the way you like.

Joe

 

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The differences in observation stem from what we are comparing the superturbo too.
Joe is comparing it to and HX35 with an 18. 5cm2 non wastgated housing, and I am comparing it to an HX35 with a 12cm2 wastgated housing.
I don't believe it to be fueling issues at all, as I have moved the fueling all around and replace the plate as well and got good response, but not compared to the stock turbo.
I fully understand the differences and why they occur.
This turbo is sized for a larger engine that puts out more air per stroke than the 5. 9 can.
The 5. 9 has to spin 1000 rpm more to compensate for the differences in the cubic inch displacement.
This turbo is a KILLER piece for race applications and I would recommend it to anyone that wants to race a 5. 9 Cummins.
I think it may even work better with the 16cm2 wastegated housing, mabey good enough that we can recommend it for towing applications, TESTING will Tell!!!!


Ted Jannetty

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Ted Jannetty, Owner President Jannetty Racing Enterprises Inc.
97 3500 4x4 club cab 5spd. RED, JRE stage 3 power kit, JRE 4" exhaust
JRE 1/2 inch fuel system, Cummins 300 hp injectors, Prime loc,
Cummins chrome kit, US Gear 20% over drive, 3. 54 posi, Autometer
gauges, boost, and Pyrometer, BD exhaust brake.
97 Ski-Doo 670 turbocharged
99 Honda Forman 450 ES

 

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On my trip to Canada last week I went for a ride in Piers truck and I didn't notice any suffering at the lower RPM range. The truck seemed to pull very hard from a idle to full throttle. I was very impressed to say the least. He must be doing something right.

 

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Hmmm... I may have to go to a D 12 turbo when I install my new 12 injector head. #ad


I cannot compete with 2330 horsepower!!! #ad

 

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The test 5 speed 12 valve Ram for the Superturbo experiment just returned from a 400 mile trip towing 5000 lb. Mileage with the superturbo was better by about 0. 5-1. 0 mpg (to 15-15. 5), and low to mid rpm response with the trailer was still great. A few excursions to 40 psi indicated that egt's are indeed lower--800 just after the turbo (for about 1200 in the manifold using the 10 deg x psi rule of thumb). The HX35, even with the 18. 5 housing that minimizes egt, gave 1200+ in the elbow. The pyro climbed about as fast as the tach or boost gauge with the HX35, while the pyro remains relatively "calm" with the HX40.

Bring On Mighty Blowers
LOL

 

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HVAC, are you referring to turbos from D9 and D12 Cat 'dozers?

Just for #ad
let me relate a story from Holset. They tried their turbos on a Cat engine, and found a nice gain. They inquired of Holset and the parent corp. , Cummins, whether they might market their products to Cat (after all Fleetguard sells filters to Cat and puts the Cat emblem on them). The response was "we don't want to do anything to make a Cat engine run better!" LOL.

 

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HVAC, you know I was thinking & maybe I shouldn't add propane injection, I'll just get a P7100 from a marine 8. 3 so it'l match the turbo #ad
#ad
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Piers

 

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Lets do a little math to explain how the HX40 can work on the little B engine. The C engine corresponding to the Superturbo's original application is rated at 2000 rpm and is 1. 4 times the displacement of the B. So, the B engine should produce power at 2800 rpm to use the Superturbo.

Now for another difference--boost. At 14. 7 psi per atmosphere, the B engine can "pretend" it is bigger with more boost. Instead of 18-22 psi, the B engine may be using the Superturbo to good advantage at 45+ psi. The added boost overcomes the lack of displacement in real world use, sort of making the B engine think it is about 1100 cid, while the C engine with 22 or so psi "thinks" it is about 760 cid.

For another calculation, lets look at the size of that "monster" 18. 5 cm2 housing. Converting that cross sectional area to diameter in inches, we get 1. 91" id, or about the equivalent of a 2" OD exhaust pipe! Quite a bit smaller than even the stock 3" exhaust pipe! (less than half as large in area).

For these reasons, it is not unexpected that the Superturbo works on "well-prepared" Rams!

 

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Joe,
I assume in your calculations of equivalent displacement you are using the following equation?

(boost pressure)*(displacement) = (atmospheric press)*(equiv. displacement)

You quote boost pressure at 22 psi, and atmospheric pressure at 14. 7 psi. Our boost gauges don't measure absolute pressure, but gage pressure with respect to atmospheric pressure. Here's the way I see it...

22 psig = 22 psig + 14. 7 psia = 36. 7 psia

therefore,
(36. 7 psia boost)*(5. 9L = 360 cid) = (14. 7 psia)*(equiv. displacement)

Equivalent displacement of 8. 3L=506. 5 cid engine at 22 psig boost equals 20. 72L = 1264 cid.

As for the 5. 9L at 45 psig, equivalent displacement would be 23. 95L = 1462 cid

Therefore, the 5. 9L is well within specs of the turbo if it can produce 45 psig boost at 2000 rpm (given enough fueling). As for necessary boost to stay within 8. 3L specs of 22 psig boost at 2000 rpm, you would need 37 psig boost at 2000 rpm with 5. 9L.

For those not in the field, psia is absolute pressure and psig is gage pressure (pressure minus absolute atmospheric). Gage pressure at atmospheric conditions is zero.

Hope this helps,
Michael--ASME,SAE,ASHRAE


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'00 2500 RAM, RegCab, 4x2, Cummins, 6-spd, Driftwood/Agate...

 

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Has anyone installed the HX40w with the 16cm housing? Just curious of the results.

 

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Got the first one in on Friday, it's going to Michael on Monday. Ted's should be on the way to him by next Monday. We'll have to wait and see how Michael likes it on his 24V & how Ted likes it on his 12V.


Scourge of the North #ad

 

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I’ve read this thread twice now and I love it, both Ted and Joe have valid points each with merit and disadvantages. It all boils down to your driving habits. I’d like to share something written by Mr. Bruce Mallinson of Diesel Injection of Pittsburgh. It’s written for larger Cummins engines used in over the road trucks, but I think it’s relevant to this topic. I hope Bruce doesn’t mind me posting this, and if you’d like to read the whole think it’s located at www.dieselinjection.net/articles.html

Diesel fuel, you’ve got to get it into the combustion chamber quickly, air free, and at the precise time in order to develop horsepower and torque. Once ignition occurs the piston is forced downwards creating the power stroke. Then on the upstroke the exhaust or burned hydrocarbons must be evacuated from the combustion chamber. All camshafts have what is called valve overlap and what that means is the intake valve begins to open just before the exhaust valve closes. This is the beauty of a turbocharged engine. The compressed air or intake manifold pressure enters the combustion chamber and forces out the burned hydrocarbons or exhaust. This process is called scavenging the combustion chamber. Now, what happens when all of the exhaust doesn’t get evacuated out past the exhaust valves and through the turbocharger? Simply put if the exhaust backpressure is greater than the intake manifold pressure, the exhaust will enter the intake manifold once the intake valve opens during valve overlap. This is not a good situation and you certainly don’t want this taking place in your engine. The results of excessive backpressure are high exhaust temperatures, poor fuel mileage and a tight running engine. What do I mean by a tight running engine? If your engine feels like you always have to push it, your foot is always into the throttle, the engine feels as though its being choked at highway speeds it just doesn’t want to glide along the highway, this is what I call a tight running engine. Too small of an air cleaner can also cause this problem, however in this article we are going to concentrate on the turbocharger and exhaust system. In today’s society everybody wants more boost or intake manifold pressure and to obtain more boost you decrease the size of the turbine housing (exhaust housing) of the turbocharger. Now that the exhaust has to pass through a smaller orifice or turbine housing, the velocity of the exhaust increases and the turbine wheel (exhaust wheel) spins faster which in turn spins the compressor wheel forcing more air into the intake manifold. Now all of this may sound good so far however once the size of the exhaust housing is decreased the piston on its upstroke must now work harder to force the exhaust out of the combustion chamber through the turbocharger.

The smaller the exhaust housing of the turbocharger the greater the back pressure in the exhaust manifold and combustion chamber, the tighter the engine will feel, and this is not so good. Now don’t be thinking that going to a larger turbine housing is the answer because if you go to the large the back pressure will drastically drop and so will the intake manifold pressure and the exhaust gas temperature will rise. So how do we keep the boost up, exhaust manifold pressure down and also keep the exhaust gas temperature down so that we can have a free running engine?

No. 1: Make sure that your truck is equipped with dual air cleaners and they are large enough for your engine, remember as horsepower and intake manifold pressure increased so does the required CFM (cubic feet of air per minute). A stock BCIII 400 uses 1060 CFM, when boosted to 500 H. P. the CFM is 1325, at 600 H. P. the CFM is 1590, 700 H. P. is 1855 CFM. Large air cleaners outside of the engine compartment are invaluable.

No. 2: Dual exhaust with straight through mufflers, 6" or 7" exhaust is much better than 5" keep the 90 deg. bends to a minimum.

No. 3: Install a turbo boost gauge in the exhaust manifold before the turbocharger. Drill a 29/64" or 7/16" hole in the exhaust manifold and tap the hole with a 1/4" pipe tap. Now install a brass fitting with 1/4" pipe threads and a coupler for 1/4" dia. brass or steel tubing. Use about 3’ of the 1/4" tubing then you can reduce down to 1/8" plastic tubing to go through the fire wall and into the instrument panel and couple the tubing to the boost gauge. Now you have two boost gauges, one for the intake boost pressure and one for the exhaust manifold pressure.
What are these gauges going to inform you of? During cruising speeds on the level the exhaust backpressure should be approximately 66% of intake pressure. While pulling moderate grades the exhaust backpressure will increase more than the intake pressure will, however it should still be less than the intake. At wide open throttle the exhaust pressure may be greater than the intake pressure but only by 2 to 3 pounds of pressure.


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99 2500 QC 4X4, ProTorque TC, BD Valve Body,
TST 275hp injectors & PowerMax1, VA CPC ordered
60 Gal. Aerotank, Geno's Combo Gage

[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 02-21-2000). ]

[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 02-21-2000). ]

[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 02-21-2000). ]

[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 02-22-2000). ]

 

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Piers checked exhaust backpressure (turbo drive pressure) with different combinations, and his e-mail is reproduced on p. 63 of TDR#27.
HX35, 12 cm2, 40 psi boost, 72 psi drive
HX35, 14 cm2, 40 psi boost, 55 psi drive
HX35, 16 cm2, 40 psi boost, 45 psi drive
HX40, 18 cm2, 46 psi boost, 40 psi drive

His study shows that only the HX40 Superturbo gives our Ram the result Bruce Mallinson preferred: lower drive pressure than boost pressure. The "worst" is the 12 cm2 housing (i. e. stock HX35) where backpressure or drive pressure is almost double the boost pressure. Note that Piers acheived more boost as well with the HX40 than he did with the HX35, at the same fueling level.

The 16 cm2 housing on the HX35 gave a result close to the preferred situation, with drive pressure only 5 psi higher than boost. Hence, the recommendation of this housing with higher fueling torque plates is seen from this perspective as a satisfactory and economical, if not optimum, setup.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Donnelly (edited 02-21-2000). ]

 

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Aren't EGT's lower in Canada, because of the exchange rate? #ad

 

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MICHAEL,


So how did the new turbo work out.

 

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From DBR & Piers:

DBR - Has anyone installed the HX40w with the 16cm housing? Just curious of the results.

Piers - Got the first one in on Friday, it's going to Michael on Monday. Ted's should be on the way to him by next Monday. We'll have to wait and see how Michael likes it on his 24V & how Ted likes it on his 12V.


Well, what say Michael & Ted?

 

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Wow, that's some highly technical information for a rookie like myself, but I think I grasp the concept and I am learning! Most (O. K. - all) of the mathamatics are way over my head, but this is how stuff gets done; guys in the know tinkering and playing around until... ta-da, a new invention or a new and improved version or concept. Progress, you gotta love it.

I am obviously a "techno-peasent" when it comes to this kind of stuff (esp. compared to you guys). All I can say is: Wow the TDR absolutely rules - so much expertise all in one spot. I keep reading this post and other similar articals/posts, learning all I can, but boy is there allot to learn!

I have a question that may sound foolish or stupid to allot of you folks (esp. in the light of this thread), but I really would like an answer (esp. one I can understand - no equations - PLEASE!).

My question is: can a 16cm2 (or even the 14cm2 - but the 16 sounds like it is much preferred) turbo be used on the newer ISB "electronic" engines without the ECM screwing everything up? More specifically, will it work on the 2001's? (and up). Since "MACRO" has apparently "cracked the ECM", in my limited knowledge/understanding, there is room for some fantastic gains here!

But, back to my original question; If the truck is Bombed adaquately - so it can get enough fuel, air and generate the required boost, will the 16cm2 turbo be the way to go?
Thanks in advance everyone.

The Cannuck