Idling blues

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I've posted about this before--less than smooth idle once the engine is warmed up, a problem since new. It is slight, but annoying since you kinda feel the truck jiggling/shaking at lights, and the gearshift is jumping back and forth a little. I've ridden in several trucks, all of which idle much smoother than mine.

I tried some troubleshooting, like checking fuel pressure, etc. I changed injectors without any affect so decided it wasn't injectors. I tried cleaning and swapping around injector tubes, no help. Over the last couple of days I've been trying out a DRB scan tool and last night tried out an injector shutoff test--shuts down whatever injector you pick. The weird thing was, as soon as I'd turn an injector back on, it idled unbelievably smooth until you exited out of the test menu, then the engine would be back to its good old self again. Did the same thing no matter what injector. Also I noticed anytime the scan tool glitched a little, or if I flashed through menus fast, the engine stumbled slightly.

SO with the strong conclusion the problem is 100% electronic, I dropped my truck off at the dealer armed with this inforation and asked them to see about reflashing it. MikeR had a similar problem and reflashing it solved the problem.

A few minutes ago I got a call and they said they got into the diagnostics and could find nothing wrong. The tech thinks the truck idles fine and there is no problem (imagine that!). This is EXACLTY the result I was AFRAID I was going to get, the reason I put this off for so long. The only code in memory was a speedometer error--weird, my speedo has always worked fine. The service rep refused to reflash my ECM since it is the latest software and there are not updates. This dealership has taken good care of me before and I want to maintain a positive relationship. Living in a remote area it is a long way to drive anywhere else.

So what do you guys think??? Harass the dealer or go somewhere else or give it up? I may go visit CUMMINNTSTKN's dealer in Helena Mt. or HeberRam's dealer in Utah, since they are BOMB-friendly. Just hate to commit the time and travel expense with the risk of running into the same "everything looks fine!!" diagnosis.

Vaughn

 

[John Berger]

Vaughn, you went to quite a bit of time and effort to track down a potential problem. I would push the dealer a bit. I've seen software from the same identical floppy diskette run smoothly on one machine and not so smoothly on another. A re-flash may overwrite some inherently bad code. Suppose there was the slightest power drop off at the time your chip was originally flashed?!? Overwriting would "erase" whatever problem may have been coded onto your chip. It's worth a try. Offer to pay them. If the re-flash works, everybody is better off for the knowledge gained, right? If you want to avoid the long trip, I would try to work out a solution with the dealer. At the very least you have eliminated one more potential cause of the problem

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1999 Dodge Ram 3500 Quad Cab 2wd; 5 spd; 4:10 LSD rear; Mag-Hytec differential cover; US Gear EGT and Boost gauges. Amsoil foam air filter and synthetics from nose to tail.
Cummins Power, don't leave home without it

[This message has been edited by John Berger (edited 03-29-2001). ]

 

[illflem]

I don't quite understand what the big deal with reflashing is being a 12 valver, but it seems like it should basically be free for the dealer to do it. Why won't they just do it ?
Vaughn, if they give you any more hassle I'd just run it up to Yakima, the dealer there was sending out all their diesel work to Cummins NW, an easy outfit to work with.

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95' 25004X4,AT,Driftwood,Banks Stinger,Warn fender flairs and running boards(work truck)
95 3500,5 speed 3:54,BD E-brake,Driftwood,Banks&Psycotty,34,000 GCVW apple and tractor hauler(works harder truck)

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Well I called the Dodge dealerships in Yakima Wa and Hermiston Or. and they tell me the same thing, cannot reflash if I have the latest revision of software. The tech at the Yakima dealership even said it is impossible for the ECM to have a glitch if it doesn't set any codes. What a load of doodoo. I was not able to speak to a tech directly, just the clerk. I made an appointment to have it looked at in Hermiston since they are supposed to be good.

Bill, the Yakima dealership says they do not farm out to Cummins NW, they have their own guy.

 

[Big-D]

Vaughn, Wanting to maintain a relationship with your current dealership in not pressing a point that you feel could be the problem, will only leave you wondering if the chip is the problem. I would go elsewhere in less time than it would take to re-flash the computer. If that does the trick then I'd stop back at the first dealership and say goodbye. If it doesn't work, you can continue your dealer relationship and hunt for the next answer. This approach may seem a little harsh, but you still have your problem to deal with. The dealership feels they did their part, which isn't satidfactory to you. Best of luck! Dave

 

[Guest00]

I took my truck to a dealer about an hour away and asked to have it reflashed on a pay ticket, not warranty. They were happy to charge and hours labor and do it.
I have my stock ECM If you would like to borrow it to check yours out. Mine has the latest and greatest reflash. I will be out of town for about 10 days but if you still need it I can fed-x. It is a 2k 215 hp, it will work on any 24v ISB.

Jack

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2K, 2500, Quad, SB, 4x4, 3:54LSD, A/T w/ DTT VB, TC, TC SAVER and AUX COOLER , REESE 15k 5th slider, EASLEY BULL BAR, MAAP NERFS, BFG-TA's, 9000's,TORQUS MAXIMUS 505 lbft ECM, stealth DD2's, Bully Dog Boost & elbow, ISSPRO pyro, boost & transmission, Turbo Lifesaver, JARDINE 4", PAC BRAKE, MAG HYTECH TP& DC, AFE filter, GEAR VENDORS OD, TAYLOR WING onboard.
pullees:
#1 y2k ARTIC FOX 5th
#2 22' car hauler w/ 76 Pinto 392cid or 68 Cyclone GT Cobra Jet FB
NRA-LIFE, VFW-LIFE, SoCSA-LIFE, SASS

 

[Alan Reagan]

Vaughn, Are you running any kind of box (VA or EZ)? Just curious.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Alan, I only have the PS boost module. Has no effect on it.

Jack, thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it, however Scott1 tried putting his 98. 5 TST reflashed ECM on his new ETH and it did not work at all, ran horrible, knocked, smoked, when he could get it to start. I'm afraid yours may not work on my ETH.

I have an appointment with Campbell Dodge in Hermiston Or. My truck will be good and warmed up when I arrive and will insist the tech get in with me so I can show him what I'm complaining about. The darned local dealer didn't get to my truck yesterday until it had sat over 3 hours, which would have given it plenty of time to cool off and run much smoother. They didn't drive it at all. Left it with 29,915 miles on the clock and had 29,915 when I picked it up #ad


Vaughn

 

[MikeR]

I hope you can get someone to reflash it. That's the same problem I had with my dealer... they said I had the latest version and no problems found,so they won't reflash it.
I didn't expect for anything to be done about it,but when I pulled into a small town in Utah,my truck was idleing real rough,so I was able to show the tech at the Dodge dealer there. I explained the smooth idle when cold and rough when hot and that I know I have the latest software yada,yada,yada... and he said the first thing he was going to do was refalsh it.

I don't know why a dealer just won't just take the customers word and reflash it to clean up the electronics. It's an emissions deal,and Dodge is responsible for the emissions system through 75k miles. Why leave a truck running bad? It only takes them a 1/2 hour or less to do it. I told the guy I was willing to pay for the reflash,but he did it under warranty.

This is another thing that pi$$es me off about DC's warranty. The import car comany I work for simply replaces the ECM if the customer complains about stubles or rough idles even if we weren't able to duplicate the problem in the shop. My customer don't know how good they have it! #ad


-Mike

 

[tmacc]

Vaughn,
I agree w/ the action of trying a new dealer. I had problems w/ my truck refusing to down shift at 60 mph. Then dealer reflashed it w/o a hassle. 2 months later I took it back because of a stumble a 1700 rpm. They reflashed it w/ the same TSB. When I asked him about it, He was a little suprised too, but said that sometimes the reflashes don't take or don't solve all the problems. When they hooked it up to the computer, there was a trouble code, so I guess ther's no arguing w/ that. So far this dealer has been pretty good about any problems that I come in with, but I do go directly to the service manager. Good luck.
Tom

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'01 2500 4x4 4. 10 White/Driftwood QC plain SLT auto trans snow prep camper package tow package bed liner mopar mud flaps Reading Ind. 33" tall contractors cap. Toys: 3 mountain bikes, a cyclo-cross bike, and a road bike, plus a couple of whitewater kayaks. Yeah, I know their human powered, but the bikes are fun to modify too. Like spending $$$ to make trucks more powerful, It takes $$ to make bikes lighter. Titanium isn't cheap.

 

[Big-D]

So what happened at Campbell Dodge in Hermiston, Or? Re-Flashed... problem solved?
Dave

 

[Jetson]

It seems like a compression test would also be in order.

 

[Diesel Freak]

Vaughn, see my latest post on the Diablo Power Puck, it got rid of my erratic idle.
-Cliff

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Big-D, my appt. is Wednesday so I'll post on it Wednesday evening.

Swayse, it sounds like you have the same problem. The bigger the injectors the more likely you'll have an uneven idle.

Jetson a compression test may not be a bad idea however, like I mentioned, my engine settled to a VERY smooth idle when I was fiddling around with the scan tool. . . I think my compression is consistent.

Cliff, how hard is it to remove/install the Diablo Puck? I didn't read the thread yet but I might try it if it's easy to install. My tach twitches like yours used to. I think a lot of these problems is because D/C probably cheapened the ECM electronics when they got their hands in on the engineering, they are probably easily disrupted by stray electrical noise/RF interference.

Vaughn

 

[Craig DeYoung]

Vaughn and Cliff,

You mention erratic idle and twitching tachometer. Can you feel the truck shake when the tach drops? Does it feel like a gust of wind? I've been tackling a hot idle 'miss' for several months now. Not the VP44, not the engine controller, not the calibeation (reflashed several ltimes. Seems to get more frequent as fuel level drops in tank. I did find that my lift pump was bad, but I still have my problem. I'm going to have my fuel system vacuum checked and work forward from there.

Craig

 

[Swayse00]

Mine doesn't idle as smooth as other trucks that I have heard. Bigger injectors make it worse. Idles so perfect when cold, when warm it idles rough. I wish I could get this fixed, I'm thinking of going back with DD3 again.

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2001 ETC 5 speed, 4" exhaust, DDI, HOT PE, 2" front lift, 315/75/16 BFG.
1980 CJ7 350, SM465(for sale)

 

[Swayse00]

I've got two tractors with the Cummins 8. 3, 92 Case IH 7130 rated at 170 HP, and a 98 Case IH 8910 rated at 140 HP. These are 12 valve engines with inline injection pumps. The 7130 idles very smooth, and the 8910 idles as rough as my truck, don't know why. Has anybody tried ajusting valves? Just a thought.

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2001 ETC 5 speed, 4" exhaust, DDI, HOT PE, 2" front lift, 315/75/16 BFG.
1980 CJ7 350, SM465(for sale)

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Tried adjusting the valves several months ago. Only had to tweak 3 of them to get dead on spec, the worst was off by . 002" Made no difference at all.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Well Campbell Dodge in Hermiston Oregon did what Lithia Dodge of Kennewick Washington insisted could not be done. . . reflash my ECM. It did NOT have the latest updates when the tech hooked up the equipment. He even showed me on the computer screen then went ahead and flashed it with the latest one, which is supposed to improve drivability on winter fuel.

Unfortunately it did little to help my slight idle miss. It just made it more of an even miss, like cylinder number X is at a constant 95% of the power of the other cylinders at idle, instead of varying erratically between, let's say, 93-98%, if I'm making sense. My tach needle is now rock-solid, no itchy twitchy. Drivability is about the same, same power, just hope my very good fuel economy doesn't go south.

So the saga continues. My next try is to borrow JNutter's old ECM just to rule that out for sure, I am still thinking the ECM could have a flaw. After that, who knows, possibly I do have a defective injector tube or injector. I am going to keep at this annoyance because I know it can run better. Weber1034 stopped by while I was in Hermiston and I sat in his truck for idle comparison and it is sooo smooth it makes me sick #ad
He has a new set of RV injectors in his '01 Auto.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and support. If JNutter's ECM doesn't help, then I'll be looking to see if anyone has extra injector tubes lying around that I could try. I doubt I could get the dealer to replace 'em under warranty. I really don't want them attacking my engine's mechanicals.

Vaughn

 

[Marco]

Vaughn,
Sorry to tell you, Jnutter's ECM will not work in your ETH.
Marco