If Cummins used Urea, could they reduce ...

[tdinut]

the amount of egr in the engine and possibly reduce some of the dpf issues?



Just wondering.....



Joe

 

[Powder Extreme]

Yes, it absolutely would. The purpose of EGR is to reduce NOx, which is precisely what Urea injection does.

 

[tdinut]

Thanks Powder ...

I appreciate the info. How long do you think it will take them to switch on these trucks (2500/3500)?

 

[Jim W]

I do not think Cummins will switch the 2500/3500HD pick-up trucks to Urea. After the cost of developing the current emissions equipment for their engines for the pick-up trucks. The current pick-up trucks meet the 2010 EPA Emission rules, so why would they switch? They may or may not need the Urea for the latest round of emission rules for 2012, but I have not seen this information yet.



You need to understand when these rules were announced and when development started on these engines. To meet these rules designing and testing take time to insure that the consumer will be happy with the overall results. The time frame was in the late 1980's with Tier I emission being required in 94 or 95. Then finally Tier IV emission being required around 2009 with a stager introduction until 2010. Which the Dodge pick-up trucks with the Cummins engine meet.



At that time of this deign and development work were being done, the oil industry for the US would not commit to providing UREA at filling stations. Still have not seen any Urea in a filling station, like you do in Europe.



This is one of many reasons Caterpillar got out of the on highway truck engine business. Caterpillar was looking at using Urea for on highway truck engine use and no distribution system existed for Urea at truck stops. Cat decided to stop development work on these engines and spend the money elsewhere in development.



Jim

 

[tdinut]

Hi Jim ....

Thank you very much for your explanation. It gives me more context on what's going on. I appreciate it very much. The Cummins system seems to be a little less complicated.



Joe

 

[rscurtis]

What are the new standards coming on line in 2012? Emissions are at basically zero now.

 

[Powder Extreme]

My opinion is that Cummins will switch to urea in 2012. They already use it in c&c and 4500/5500 trucks. The technology is there. As a truckstop owner myself I can tell you that the industry is carrying urea in jugs and will soon find dispensers in the larger truckstops.

 

[tp0d]

whats that crap smell like? cant be good. sniff sniff

 

[Jim W]

What are the new standards coming on line in 2012? Emissions are at basically zero now.

I can not remember exactly what the EPA wants to eliminate now. But I do know that there is to be a Tier V emission rules, that will take place in 2012.

I tried to look on the EPA website, but could not find the link for future rules from the EPA that the engine manufactures need to comply to.

Jim

 

[rscurtis]

I think any new standards are going to apply to a reduction in CO2, which is a fuel economy improvement traveling incognito. The Diesel Technology Forum has an emissions chart on their website, look at it and you'll see that after 2010, there's no place left to go.

 

[n7gxz]

At one time in the not so distant past they (the EPA) were talking of making the refill of the urea bottle a dealer only item.



Kevin

 

[MLee]

Jim Anderson covers this subject in the latest TDR Mag. He says that the biggest problem right now is finding room to place a 5 gallon jug to hold the solution. @ $84. 00 a fill to cover 3500 miles. I would expect some one to come up with the mixture combo to get a round this expensive refill. Maybe that they expect that there will be no one around after Dec 21, 2012 to due more reduction of emissions.

 

[champspa]

where I used to work, a paper mill, we used urea and bought it in 100 pound bags . I can't see the problem in mixing it yourself .

 

[rscurtis]

whats that crap smell like? cant be good. sniff sniff

I looked at Cummins's website, the have a FAQ section about DEF. It is made from natural gas and deionized water in a 32% solution. It requires no special handling and is colorless and odorless. The only caution is about avoiding contact with aluminum. As far as the cost of $84 for 5 gallons, that cost could exist at some places, but IMO it will eventually be the same cost as fuel, and certainly a lot cheaper than the 3 gallons of oil some of you are throwing away on a regular basis due to the constant regen of the NAC and DPF.

PE is correct, IMO, you will see Cummins go to it in the pickup platform. Keep in mind that when they developed the NAC system, DEF hadn't been approved by the EPA in this country. Navistar will be the sole holdout with their heavy EGR, just as Cat stuck to their ACERT system to avoid EGR. We all know how that worked out.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Try reading the "Ask the Engineers" thread they explain what you need to know.



The urea (SCR) and EGR which has nothing to do with the DPF!



You don't want the extra cost of having to fill a urea tank!

 

[rscurtis]

The "extra cost" of urea is rewarded by advanced timing, reduced EGR, a cleaner running engine that results in fewer regenerations of the DPF and the associated waste of fuel and oil contamination. The benefit is improved FE and of course HP, which we really don't need at this point. I don't know which "engineers" you're talking about, but take a look at Mack's website and they explain how a regen uses between 1-1/2 and 5 gallons of fuel. No "extra cost" there.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Sorry I did not have time this morning(Saturday) to scroll down to Dodge/Cummins Tech talk.

Here is the link. https://www.turbodieselregister.com...talk/218291-ask-engineer-live-chat-place.html



This is what you need to read: Page 4, scroll down to post/reply #50,page 7 post/reply 92.

 

[dlmetzger]

The diesel engine has two basic emissions problems. The first is the most obvious, diesel particulate matter (soot). The second is NOx, which is short for NO, NO2 and NO3. Diesel particulate matter and NOx emissions have a roughly inverse relationship. To lower levels of diesel particulate matter, combustion is done done at higher temperatures. This also makes the engine more thermodynamically efficient and improves mileage. NOx is created when combustion occurs it high temperatures; the nitrogen in the air is literally burned (or oxidized). Lowering the temperature reduces NOx but lowers efficiency. This is a bit over-simplified. Allowing the engine to burn the fuel more efficiently (also producing less diesel particulate) and handling the NOx emissions with aftertreatment is the best solution to date. I think Cummins and Dodge will switch from an NOx Absorber Catalyst to and SCR system for the pickup trucks in 2012.
There are several articles (by Cummins while while working with the DoE) that discuss this. Here's one. Look at page 22 in the PowerPoint pitch below.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/advanced_combustion/ace_34_stanton.pdf

 

[tempforce]

the urea is 33% ammonia and water. the urea that is used for treatment of diesel exhaust has something else added, so the sensor can tell whether you are using the store bought product.

the price of urea is about $12 a gallon. and yes we will have it on the non commercial dodges by 2012.

but fuel economy should improve due to less or no egr required.

operation cost per mile will be higher. .

 

[dlmetzger]

Urea is actually (NH2)2CO and not ammonia (or NH3).



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Urea breaks down into ammonia. From Wikipedia, Selective Catalyst Reduction of NOx with urea is



"4NO + 2(NH2)2CO + O2 → 4N2 + 4H2O + 2CO2.