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Incorrect DEF Detected, See Dealer message

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TDRGuy

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What a great way to start the day.

Just the facts: 28k miles, truck built in 4/14 (one of the first) VIN 5ES3372555

Added 2.5 gallons of ISO spec 22241 (as called for in the o/m) about 250miles ago. DEF was on the shelf at the convenience store. Still have the jug, but I cannot determine the date code.

The "Incorrect DEF" message has been preceded with several P20EE codes that I have been able to erase and go on about my business.

Appointment set next Tuesday at Ram dealer.

In the interim, added 5 gallons of fresh Mopar DEF and sloshed it around in the tank by driving like a wild man at an autocross. No luck in getting the message and its corresponding fault code ( )to go away.

What can I expect next?

Input from those with experience would be appreciated.

RP
 
JJJ, thank you for sharing the bulletin. To answer your question, No.

I'll take a copy with me to the dealership in hopes the the fluid warning was a way to get my attention for the real problem , the P20EE.

RP
 
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The truck runs the SCR monitor after it sees an increase of DEF in the tank. It is a bit confusing that it says incorrect DEF, most likely the way the feds make the manufacturers use a predetermined fault code description. In reality the SCR cat is probably in need of replacement. The other thing to watch for on the dealer side is the procedure to force the monitor to run. If they have not done many they may end up driving and driving trying to get the monitor to pass. The procedure is very specific and many technicians think they can shortcut the steps. The one they skip is draining the DEF tank because it does not have a drain and has to be removed to empty it out. They also think they have to throw the DEF away, but if it is fairly fresh (which yours is) it can be saved for the refill procedure.
 
This is the procedure and it has to be run exactly as stated. Also when it says above 55 it means above 55, not through town. Here in CA the technician would have to time the drive portion so the traffic on the freeway allowed the steady speed. It does say add new DEF, but if the DEF that was added is new it would be fine. Most likely they will charge warranty for new fluid so it isn't a big deal.

If the monitor does not run after doing the procedure it will most likely require the new cat, assuming they followed the procedure.

They can only re-run the procedure a couple of times before the PCM locks them out (see NOTE below for P241D) and then it requires a PCM replace. Warranty gets to spend another $800 for the technician not paying attention. And then that cost gets passed on to you and me down the road.

Diagnosis:
As part of the normal diagnosis for DTC P2BA9 - NOX Exceedence - Insufficient Reductant Quality, a
Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) quality check must be performed. Refer to
DealerCONNECT>Service>TechCONNECT>Service Info>25 – Emission Control>Diesel Exhaust Fluid
Emissions>Diagnosis and Testing>DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING – DIESEL EXHAUST FLUID for
additional information. If contamination is found, the DEF tank will have to be completely drained and
cleaned.
Once the root cause of the P2BA9 has been determined, the monitor that set the P2BA9 will have to run
in order to clear out the “Service DEF” inducement message. The monitor for the P2BA9 will only run one
time after the system detects a DEF tank fill. In order for the monitor to detect a refill, perform the
following procedure. It will be necessary for the DEF tank to only contain approximately 2.5 gallons of
DEF before beginning this procedure.
NOTE: If DTC P241D - SCR Inducement – Forced Engine Shutdown is active and the engine
will not start, perform the “SCR Mileage Extend W Active Fault” wiTECH routing in
the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) “MISC Functions” menu tab.
NOTE: This procedure will not operate at temperatures below -700C (200
F).
Repair Procedure:
1. Turn the ignition on but do not start the vehicle.
2. Using the wiTECH diagnostic scan tool, clear the codes from the ECM.
3. If completely drained, fill the DEF tank with about 2.5 gallons of new DEF.
NOTE: Do not completely fill the DEF tank at this time.
4. Start the vehicle and allow it to warm up to normal operating temperature.
5. Using the wiTECH diagnostic scan tool, monitor the “Urea Reductant Pump Pressure” to verify
that the system is operational. Further diagnostics would be required if the DEF system is not
operational.
NOTE: The wiTECH diagnostic scan tool must be at software version 15.01 or later to
perform the following step.
6. Perform the “SCR DEF Tank Fluid Level Reset” procedure located in the PCM “System Test” tab
in wiTECH.
7. Turn the ignition off and allow the vehicle to sit for at least 5 minutes.
8. Add two gallons (or more) of new DEF.
9. Move the vehicle outdoors. Then, perform the “Service Diesel Particulate Filter Regeneration”
located in the PCM “Misc. Functions” tab in wiTECH.
10.Turn the ignition off and allow the vehicle to sit for at least 5 minutes.
NOTE: The final reset process will abort if the vehicle performs a passive regeneration
during the drive cycle. The wiTECH Service Regeneration procedure is to help
prevent a passive regeneration from occurring.
11.Drive the vehicle in a safe environment where a minimum of 89 kph (55 mph) can be maintained
for at least 30 minutes. Driving the vehicle at 89 kph (55 mph) for 30 minutes will allow the
diagnostic monitor for P2BA9 to run. If the DEF quality is sufficient and NOX reduction efficiency
is >60% during the drive cycle, the DEF quality diagnostics will pass and clear inducement
identified issues. The “Service DEF” message will then turn off.
 
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The truck runs the SCR monitor after it sees an increase of DEF in the tank. It is a bit confusing that it says incorrect DEF, most likely the way the feds make the manufacturers use a predetermined fault code description. In reality the SCR cat is probably in need of replacement. The other thing to watch for on the dealer side is the procedure to force the monitor to run. If they have not done many they may end up driving and driving trying to get the monitor to pass. The procedure is very specific and many technicians think they can shortcut the steps. The one they skip is draining the DEF tank because it does not have a drain and has to be removed to empty it out. They also think they have to throw the DEF away, but if it is fairly fresh (which yours is) it can be saved for the refill procedure.

Do you know if either DEF messages (Incorrect DEF and Service DEF) will require the SCR Healing Steps? For some reason the TSB only mentions the "Service DEF" or the P2BA9-00 code as requiring the healing steps you outlined. Thanks in advance.
 
The P20EE code will get you a new SCR per the TSB. My truck ( build date 3-14 ) did this last September, every time I reset the code it popped back up. After a few resets I got the message that I had 200 miles until it would not restart.
 
"Here in CA the technician would have to time the drive portion so the traffic on the freeway allowed the steady speed. "

Here in NYC, the speed limit for the entire area is 50. If you're in a central area, you couldn't do this without breaking a law or paying tolls etc. amazing. Regarding the TSB, that's not a lot of time at all to diagnose and repair!

Just for comparison, I had experience with 2 current gen Ford POS SD's. Similar message of DEF quality, and the dx description was reductant quality/ NOx performance. DTC IIRC was P207F. We have a standard directive to use a refractometer to check DEF quality regarding the big trucks, and it tested good. In our case, diagnosis path included a PCM flash, and that's what fixed it. Of course management didn't allow us time to run the monitor, but one unit I know of has been up a while with a lot of hiway use.
 
I am so excited to announce that you will see a new column from Sag2 (Stan in the real world) in the next issue of the TDR. Stan will see an edited and expanded version of his article being sent back to him for his review later this week.

Rusty, yep, it is a paid gig. Ditto any and all of the technicians (like Andy Redmond) that would want to write for the benefit of all the audience. Send in the good stuff! As you know, Bill Stockard tries to capture the best of the board, but I know we miss a lot of helpful tips.

Back to the topic, thank all of you for the responses. I'm going to hit "print" and take the words from the wise with me to help the dealer fix the problem.
You guys are great. This is what the TDR thing is all about.

RP

PS Rusty, care to shine any light on a CB400t carb/run lean problem?
 
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I am so excited to announce that you will see a new column from Sag2 (Stan in the real world) in the next issue of the TDR. Stan will see an edited and expanded version of his article being sent back to him for his review later this week.

Yep, it is a paid gig. Ditto any and all of the technicians (like Andy Redmond) that would want to write for the benefit of all the audience. Send in the good stuff! As you know, Bill Stockard tries to capture the best of the board, but I know we miss a lot of helpful tips.

Back to the topic, thank all of you for the responses. I'm going to hit "print" and take the words from the wise with me to help the dealer fix the problem.
You guys are great. This is what the TDR thing is all about.

RP

I guess I need to change my physical address for the TDR. I haven't seen an issue over the past several months I've lived in GA. The irony is I live 10 mins away from the TDR's office, yet "my" issue passes me on it's 1,800 mile trek to my "old" address where its likely lost forever. :-/
 
PS Rusty, care to shine any light on a CB400t carb/run lean problem?

Keihin carbs? Vacuum or cable-operated slides? If the jet that the needle drops into is absolutely clean, have you tried raising the needles one notch? You don't mention the year of the CB400, but a lot of the mid-70s Hondas and later were set up absurdly lean in the spirit of lower emissions, I guess. My wife's 1973 CB500 Four certainly was. In addition to playing with the needle position, I keep a pill bottle full of main jets for the CB750's mechanical carbs, all the way from 69s to 79s (73s were stock, IIRC).

Needle position will have more effect from off-idle through middle throttle positions on up toward full throttle. Main jets will primarily affect full throttle mixture. Lifting the needle position enriches; dropping the needle leans out. Jet sizes go richer with higher numbers.

If the bike has sat up for quite awhile, your best first step may be to have the carbs rebuilt. Chances are the passages and metering devices could have varnish deposits, corrosion, dirt, etc. which will typically lean it out as well.

Rusty
 
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Let's bring this story to an end.
Mingoglia: yes you need to call/email the TDR with an updated address.
Rusty: thanks for the tips, will rebuild carbs for the 57th time. Air leaks and trash in carbs will make you crazy. I think it is finally fixed, can't imagine trying to get 4 carbs to participate, much less 6 on a CBX.
Grant: Can't wait to have more from Stan in the TDR.

Took truck to dealer. Service advisor was underwhelmed with my research of the problem. Should have expected as much.
They did the flash/updates, sent it through the car wash and pronounced it good-to-go...and I really hope that is the case.
Time will tell if the procedures that the audience has outlines above will need to be followed. I am hoping the P20EE will not show up again.

RP
 
I have been using Deionized water during the summer months, Urea is nothing new to me been using it for years for other cleaning applications, My experiences are so different then what I read on this forum and others concerning DEF problems. I am very glad I'm not subject to the Trash FCA dispersed VIA Dealer network. Some of the unnecessary repairs performed on owners vehicle BC of the lack of knowledge is shocking. Some good People like Sag and Bob and know a few local techs that know how to turn a wrench.
 
I was really hoping P20EE would go away.

IT'S BACK.

Stay tuned for further updates."

Please do. This same code is why I traded my 14 6.7 off. It was recurring and neither my dealer nor FCA wanted to fix it. I hope they can perfect these exhaust systems or at least get the EPA off our backs so we can delete.
 
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