Intercooler Idea

[Greenleaf]

I may be mistaken here but, I have a 6BTA here at the school which uses the air to coolant inter-cooler.



Guys looking to replace their leaky/damaged air to air inter-cooler or install a inter-cooler on a 89-90 model year may want to consider this option.



I know this isn't the best choice but, I'm not sure why. They work well. I can locate replacements. Maybe not as efficient as air to air???? I don't know. It seem that the air is in the neighborhood of 300+* and coolant 190-200* so it must work.



Just food for thought... ... ... ... ... ... ...



Scott

 

[JLEONARD]

Scott,

The 6B 270 hp engine in my boat has an antifreeze cooled intercooler... they call it "jacket water cooled".

It is a unit that bolts to the top of the intake manifold and the compressed air runs thru it.

Now the next steps up in hp (330 and 370) have sea water cooled units that are mounted on the side of the engine and have seawater hoses running to them.

So yes, an antifreeze cooled intercooler would work.

Can you describe what the units look like that you have? Can you post a pic?

Thatnks.

Jay

 

[Greenleaf]

Intrecoler Design

I'm not handy with the posting of pictures. I have a newly installed exhaust system of which I'd like others to see. Probably wont happen.



In terms of the cooler design, it is placed right on top of the intake manifold. Coolant is in/out toward the front right side. Air intake is middle right side. Turbo pipe comes up over the #3 valve cover and into side of cooler.



I replaced one. New is available. Used is quite cheep. There is a used bus parts dealer near me. Have lots and lots of used engine parts. I use them on the older spare busses.



It seems that the bus wears out but the Cummins keeps on kick-en, go figure



Scott

 

[cerberusiam]

The problem with the air\coolant aftercooler is it will only cool to the thermostat temp, usually around 180 degrees. Air/Air intercooler under hard pull brings the air charge temp down to 140 to 150 depending on ambient. Optimum would be get that air temp down to 110 to 120 to make the most of it. On a stock engine that is adhering to the CPL 180 degrees is probably not a problem, but, step outside that and it makes a fairly large difference. If you believe Banks's numbers on the sidewinder project, on the order 1 HP per degree F drop in air charge temp. Going from 180 degrees to 120 degrees at 60 HP is a noticeable difference. Mounting an air\coolant in sequence with an air\air IC would probably help. Are the injection lines and pump the same on the buses and our trucks? The biggest problem I can see is getting a set of lines for the VE pump that would work with the coolant IC.

 

[Greenleaf]

Well, as far as I can tell, the injection pump/lines are the same.

 

[therabbittree]

defiantely not the same lien i have one of those water cooler intake intercoolers that came form my marine cummins engine if the lines were the same that intake would be on my truck already haha. . no the colant temp issue. . how about you run the a separate non engien coolant syatem. . iw a water / coolant tank, a electric waterpump, an small tranns cooler and some lines . . run the coolant froma cool tank through the electric pump to intercooler then return it back to the tank but first pass it through a extra front mounted trans cooler. . that was my idea. . that wat you could even add ice to you water / coolant tank and a temp guage to read the coolant temp. . so the only thing heating the coolant would be the hot intake air temp. . etc... hey can you send me aIM im intereste din talking to you about some of those used parts from the bus guy. . thanks deo

\x/ hillfolk!

 

[DieselTweaker]

water intercooler

Hey guy's I have one on my truck but I hooked up diffrent it's a self contained unit and makes some big power I will get pic's for you so you can see it.

 

[dpuckett]

I've seen a few of those water to air aftercolers, and the lines are different.



As for the separate pump and water cooler, that seems to me it would add a lot of lines and parts for not as much gain as could be had with a CAC, esp if one went with a 2nd or 3rd Gen cooler. Good theory, though. COULD drop temps below ambient, or down to the target 100deg or whatever. But what about when the ice melts? Maybe have some dry ice in there to really cool stuff off?



Daniel

 

[tugboatphil]

Are the dimensions of the 3rd gen cooler different than the 2nd? Easier or harder to fab into ours?

 

[Headshot zod]

if anybody needs help with pics you can email them to me and I'll shrink them down and post them.

 

[DieselTweaker]

Daniel,



Acutally you just gain two more hose's that's it, and I dont use it all the time only when im Drag racing or Pulling. you might use a few bag's of ice for a day of fun but it's worth it,,,,,, ICE is CHEAP

 

[Headshot zod]

How can you sample the air temperature on the intake? What would be a decent gauge to do so with? It would be interesting to see how much you can cool it.

 

[DieselTweaker]

temp reading

well with a good multi meter and a few temp probes you could do it, I was going to do some testing but I had all my tools stolen so im kinda up the creek right now I would love to know what kind of temp's you can get out of that system, im also planing on running an air to air cooler as well, of course that as soon as i figure out how im going to do it.

 

[Headshot zod]

Scroll to the bottom



Dual Air Charge Temp. Gauge

 

[y-knot]

I have recently insulated the air intake system and the charged air intake system to protect from heat soaking and reduce intake air temps. The engine manifold was insulated as well as the turbo's exhaust side and down pipe. I installed an intake air probe to monitor the charged air sytems temps, it's at the first section of the air horn. On a warm day like today(89), the intake air runs between 75-100 degrees, much lower then others have indicated. Yes there are several good reasons to use air to air intercoolers on trucks, high flow rates and cooler temps are a few. If nothing else, the air to liquid makes for a very consistant intake air temp. And maybe on a large vehicle, that is heavy and travels slowly, which means little air flow, the air to liquid intercooler is a better choice? Especaly given that school buses mainly operate in the cooler months ??

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

You can get a dual temp sensor/monitor for our trucks.

Normally you'd sample the charge air as it leaves the turbo and then again as it enters the intake plenum.



pb.

 

[JLEONARD]

In one of the forums on DTR I think, where some folks were discussing the 4bta engine for a conversion, the subject of air to air vs air to antifreeze intercoolers was discussed.

One of the guys talked to a Cummins factory engineer/technician aboput the difference.

They said that the air to air reduced the charge air to 200 deg F, and the antifreeze unit reduced it to 250 F.

Makes some sense.

I'm sure these were avg nominals at factory rated boost.

I'd like to know what the number is for non-intercooled charge air.

Jay

 

[BJMarshall]

bus pics

Here is a bus I have for sale. It hase one of these coolers on it. I got one of these coolers with the injector lines off a skidder. (the lines are different) Initially I planned to put this on my truck. According to my measurements, it won't fit under the hood. I don't think it would take much to make it fit though. As has already been stated, plumbing it to engine coolant isn't going to drop the temp as much as the air to air cooler will, but plumbed with its own captive cooling system you could theoretically drop the temp to below ambient. Eventually I plan to use this in series with the air to air cooler on the truck. I am going to plumb it with its own system. I'm going to put a cooler in the tool box and use an electric pump. Dump some ice in it when you need a little extra "cooling". I was going to put some sort of heat exchanger (probably a heater core with a fan) in the return line. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Barry

 

[BV]

Originally posted by tugboatphil

Are the dimensions of the 3rd gen cooler different than the 2nd? Easier or harder to fab into ours?

HO - 2nd gens are higher then the SO or 12v 2nd gens. By the looks of the nose of the 3rd gens I would assume they changed again but I can only assume.

 

[Headshot zod]

Barry, how much are the measurements off by?



Whould the couple of inches on a hood scoop make up for it?