Internal Coolant Leak

[msimmons]

I have an '03 Ram w/HO CTD. It has about 16K on the clock and I have changed the oil twice. The first time at 7533 miles and the second at 14,800 miles. I sent samples of the oil to Blackstone for analysis and both samples returned high potassium values indicating an internal cooalnt leak. The first sample was dismissed by Blackstone as a likely manufacturing "left-over" but the second sample had an increase in potassium thus Blackstone is surmising that I have an internal coolant leak. I have added several pints of coolant since new but didn't think that was abnormal. Does anyone have any experience with this? What is the likely culprit? My first inclination is to continue to monitor the situation and see what the oil analysis shows at 22. 5K. The coolant loss (if any) is likely so small it won't show up on the pressure test. Comments/suggestions appreciated.



Mike

 

[rbattelle]

My guess would be head gasket. Just a guess.

 

[msimmons]

That was mu guess too, but the pressure test didn't reveal anything and the coolant loss is soooo small it will be hard to ascertain the source I'm afraid. I was hoping that this prob would ring a bell with some other CTD owner.



Mike

 

[Prairie Dog]

Iv'e got just over 19K now and Iv'e never added a drop of coolant.

 

[rbattelle]

Such a tiny leak is a real shame. Too small to locate the source, too big to not make you worry. Are you still under warranty? Ask the dealer to try a new head gasket, if you trust them to open your fuel system.

 

[DPKetchum]

Some of those small internal leaks won't how up with a pressure tester. Would take a LONG time for it to drop and leak may be a certain engine temps. I bet Cummin or Etc. Has a way to detect it in coolant. Dye/chemical etc. Need to start the ball rolling with a dealer and test reports and go from there. Make some calls to BIG rig repair shops and ask them their advise and how to they trouble shoot that problem. Bet there is a dye to add to coolant that when oil black lighted shows up.

 

[msimmons]

That's the problem... . I AM the dealer :--) ! I just hate to go tearing into the engine on a witch hunt. I too suspect the headgasket and that's not a big job, but before I waste time and money, I sure would like to have a better idea where the coolant is going.



I plan on contacting Cummins and the zone tech guys for their input. TDR is such a huge knowledge base though, I was hoping someone on this forum would have some insight or has dealt with a similar problem.



Thanks to all for your input!



Mike

 

[jwilliams3]

I dont think its the headgasket (itself).



The Multi-layer gasket technology used on 3rd Gen Cummins engine is different from the past.

I dont think you will see a "blown" situation.

It would be more of a lifted head or relaxed bolt situation causing a coolant contamination in the oil.



Other places to look typically, Oil cooler.

But, in my opinion your probably not going to find an insignificant leak. If there is one.



It could be internal and something you will never find, unless it increases.

Someone suggested blacklighting, good idea (if you want to spend the time).



You might consider retorquing your factory head bolts to specs.



--Justin

 

[DPKetchum]

Its not normal and you know the ropes if your the dealer. I most of the time could figure out away around the witch hunts and remember to document all thats done and STRAIGHT TIME! I always could make money and turn these problems to something beneficial with some thinking. May not be headgasket,could be a head. I use to tell STAR upfront I'm not going on a expedition unless its GOING TO PAID FOR. I bet theres a way to confirm coolant in oil and ask STAR what to replace. May get fooled and a engine(long block)get authorized from the jump street.

 

[msimmons]

DP:



Sounds like the voice of experience having been sent on fishing expeditions by STAR on more than one occasion.



The pressure test indicated no leak and I have only added a tiny amount of coolant since new. The two oil analyses done indicated no antifreeze in the oil just an elevated potassium level which "indicates" the possibility of coolant getting into the engine



I am gonna get the tech folks at STAR and Cummins involved and see what they recommend.



Thanks for your reply!



Mike

 

[DPKetchum]

Datsun/Nissan 14 years,G. M. 5 years and D. C. 4 years and THERE ALL THE SAME for the most part. Been on lots of WHITE BUFFALO hunts. Went through coolant loss in Northstar(Caddy) etc. I bet Cummins has a way to check and diagnosis. With the big rigs on the road there got to be a certain way to check and a min. max level etc. Some of those rigs have floating liners/cavitation problems etc.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

msimmons, how do your copper and tin wear metals look?



Coolant in oil destroys bearings very quickly. That happened to me on a Bronco when I kept having to add a quart of coolant every few thousand miles. After about 15,000 miles of this my rod bearings were toast and I had to rebuild the engine.



You can post your copper & tin numbers and we could tell you if they look normal or not. If the bearings are wearing faster than normal those numbers will rise. If they look OK I would just keep monitoring it. If they are elevated then that would serve as good cause to go after the problem. It sounds like you are probably OK for the time being.



Good luck and keep us posted. I'm a believer in oil sampling, otherwise you are flying blind to potential disaster!



Vaughn

 

[msimmons]

Vaughn:



Glad you asked! My Cu is 12ppm and Sn is 0 ppm, the Cu is "slightly elevated over the Blackstone universal averages but still could be due to engine break-in. These ere the readings at 14,874 miles. The readings at the original analysis at 7,533 miles were 23 and 1 ppm respectively. Since both readings went down I am not too concerned about bearing wear at this point. Unless I am towing my RV, the Cummins isn't worked hard being driven back and forth to work so I suspect my break-in time will be extended over someone who works his truck daily. I'm gonna check with the tech gurus, but my first inclination is to just wait and see.



Mike

 

[rbattelle]

This kind of problem really sucks. I hope things work out.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Mike looks like you're OK, my Tin (Su) is usually a 1 or 0, and copper jumps around (sometimes it goes high because the oil cooler leaches copper according to Cummins).



Vaughn

 

[msimmons]

Vaughn:



Thanks for the info!



Mike

 

[Kurt Henzler]

msimmons

i just saw your post (searched for) , i to have the same problem. just posted a new topic with my numbers. my potassium numbers are 98 and molybdenum 13. what do we do?

 

[GWDiesel]

coolant loss

I have the same problem with our 03, At first I blamed the

problem on the block heater(use of) but this time I had the loss

just traveling from CA back to CO,about a pint or less, I will try and see if the dealer will check how tight the head bolts are.

I hope Mr. Msimmons will keep us posted on this problem. GWD

 

[msimmons]

GWDiesel:



I noted your post about coolant loss as well as Kurts. Did you do an oil analysis or are you basing your concern on just the loss of coolant that you experienced on your trip? Pls advise.



BTW, I will be working with the D/C zone tech advisor and the Cummins liason to see what can be done to address this. I will reply to the board as soon as I have any info.



Mike

 

[GWDiesel]

Coolant loss

Msimmons



No I have not had an oil sample, Just going by the coolant level in the over flow bottle!so far. We will be eagerly awaiting your next post,good luck with you meeting with the factory rep. !! OH by the

way I notice the water temp start to rise when pulling a grade

like the grade north bound Hwy 15 past Las Vegas,or any long

drawn out pull, the temp seems to hold at about 201/203*and

drops below to 190 or so on the flat road,I have about 15,000

on the odometer. GWD