Is it 5000 lbs or 7500 lbs Non WD?

[InThinAir]

So I have been looking around the site trying to find out if the new hitch is 5000 pounds or 7500 pounds non weight distributing. I am over 5000k but am under 7500k and I don't want to install a Reese Titan below the stock one or remove it, it is too low! I haul live cargo mostly and don't really know the weight exactly but I know my horses all are about 1200 pounds so in my 3 horse bumper pull Classic with a tack room, I am over 5k.



Anyone know what it is? For certain? Is there someone I need to write a letter to to find out exactly?



thanks for the help!



---Doug

 

[DPelletier]

There seems to be alot of confusion on the 3rd gen factory hitch ratings. SAE rates all class IV hitches (like the one on your truck) at 500/5000 w/o WD bars and 1000/10,000 with WD bars. Some people have gotten "addendums" that claim 12,000 lbs for the factory hitch without specifically mentioning WD bars. I strongly suggest that this rating is WITH the WD bars.

In your case you need to weigh your trailer, both GVWR and tongue weight. Personally, I believe that the dead weight is more critical than the pulled weight. If your trailer weighs 7500 lbs and you have 15% tongue weight, then you have 1,125 lbs dead weight on the hitch. If your at 5,000 lbs and 15%, then dead weight is 750, either way I would suggest using a weight distributing hitch set-up. Hopefully you don't need to replace the factory reciever with an aftermarket "class V" reciever.



Dave

 

[InThinAir]

I have thought about weighting my set up. But I have 2 problems. Most horse trailers are equiped only with a small crank lift on the tongue, this is not rated to hold the weight of the trailer with horses in it. Also, glad my wife is not reading this post, horse are live weight not dead and the force on the tongue is variable. Believe me that I feel them bouncing around back there and the tongue weight will increase when stopping based on them moving forward.



So is there a special way to weight the tongue?



---Doug

 

[gonzo2]

Weigh the truck unloaded and then with your trailer, if you get seperate rear axle weights you can figure it out. You shouldn't have to weigh a loaded trailer unhitched.

 

[DPelletier]

Yep, what Gonzo said. IMO if you're over 500 lbs tongue weight, use the WD bars. If your over 1,000 lbs tongue weight, consider an aftermarket "class V" hitch (again, with the WD bars).





Dave

 

[gonzo2]

Take measurements front and back before and after you are loaded. You may be surprised how much your front end has lifted. This is weight off your axle. The WD set up can put this and more load back on your front axle.

In some ways it doesn't matter if your hitch can take the load, the driving performance of your set up will improve significantly for minimal cost.



By the way, does anyone know how to spell check a reply under the new "regime"?

 

[EEngel]

Spell Check

gonzo2,



Spell check has been disabled until they are sure the new system has no bugs.

 

[gonzo2]

EEngel



Thanks!

 

[jelag]

Maybe add a couple of thoughts... . my son just got his 04. 5 3500 SRW and the dealer installed the tow package. . and his hitch is only rated at 5K, got a tag on the side of the hitch... . My 04 3500 Dually has a factory installed hitch thats rated at 7. 5K based on the tag on the side of the hitch... and I guess the factory wouldn't put that heavy of a hitch on the truck at the factory if it couldn't handle that weight.....



I do pull a goose neck that weights about 22K with mine. . and the tongue weight is usually around 2500 lbs. . and mine does a fine job of pulling... but 2500 in the bed in front of the axle is a lot different than 1000 lbs behind the end of the truck... ...



Jim

 

[InThinAir]

My 04 3500 Dually has a factory installed hitch thats rated at 7. 5K based on the tag on the side of the hitch... and I guess the factory wouldn't put that heavy of a hitch on the truck at the factory if it couldn't handle that weight.....



Jim

So this kind of information from Dodge is what is misleading. This is why I am in a quandry, I would be ok if the hitch was rated for 7500 lbs.



Do you still have the tag? Can you attach a scan or picture of it?



And does anyone think I can get the same verification from Dodge?



---Doug

 

[NSperduto]

I'd be curious to know what you come up with as I'm buying a trailer with an advertised tongue weight of 12oo and a gvw of 9500. I was intending to just tow it with the ram and a wd setup.



Nick

 

[Kirwin]

My $.02

On the trucks I have (see my sig). On my 97, I replaced the factory hitch with a Draw-Tite Ultra Frame Receiver rated at 12K WD and 1,200 tounge weight when I bought a larger travel trailer that has 1700 pounds on the tounge as measured by the A-Weigh-We-Go folks (now RVSEF). My trailer is not a fifth wheel. When I found out I was over the rated acapacity of the hitch as far as tounge weight I was worried. During this weighing process I also discovered that all that tounge weight on the 97 Ram resulted in my exceeding the GVWR of 8,800 pouinds for the truck, However I was not over either GAWR. The truck handled terible and sway was a problem. I had recently replaced the factory 245-75R16E Goodyear RTSs with Michelin 265-85R16E also and believe that this also contributed to my sway issues. I bought the Reeses Dual Cam sway control hitch set up which helped but did not eliminate the sway completely. Consequently I bought the 03 Ram DRW which has a 12K rating WD and 1,200 tounge weight rating on the side of the receiver. Sway is nearly non-existent and the truck handles the load much better. I am over the 1,200 lb tounge weight rating but I do not believe this is as much of an issue as being over the total hitch capacity (12K WD) or exceeding the GVWR or GAWR of the truck and/or trailer neither of which I exceed as my trailer weighed out at 11,500 lbs. I recommend that you get the truck and tralier weighed including the individual axles and then weigh the truck without the trailer and see where you really are. This is cheap (less than $10) then you can decide if you have hitch enough or you need an upgraded receiver. Also ensure that the hitch ball you are using is also rated to handle the higher load. I'll look at my receiver tag tonight and see what it says. Ken Irwin

 

[Rockcrawler]

I posted some lengthy experience on this before, I think DPelletier will remember the thread. If I get time, I'll dig it up.



In a nutshell, I tow a 8000-9000 enclosed race trailer about 25k a yr. With 1000ish lbs weight carrying hitch weight (I use race car scales to verify) you will eventually have hitch sag due to movement/deformation where and how it mounts to the frame. Don't even try to tell me different as I've had it all apart and it's not the best design. (Don't mean to sound arrogant, but I design and fab a lot I've been pretty intimate with the 3rd gen set-up. )



The reese titan is beefy, safe, will do the job but is also lacking in design. It hangs Waaaaaaaay low, which is a nuisance and ugly. I had a a worn factory size spare on a factory aluminum wheel (my truck's a SB) and you can not remove the spare with the Titan installed (OK, I wrestled it onto my chest with two 2' pry bars). Reese "Could not replicate the problem" and lost interest in calling me back or resolving the issue- at least the dealer had the business ethics to let me return the hitch.



Stop thinking "Need a weight dist hitch" and start thinking "I really want a weight dist hitch" just like it was a bomb box or an ex brake. I bought an equalizer brand hitch which is unique in design- the SOB flat out works, way more than I could've imagined. Load and sway control, driving is much more relaxed and easy, even at faster speeds and going into corners a little hot etc. It's an extra 2 minutes or so to hook up- big deal, I might hit 60 seconds if someone bet me a beer on it.



That said, I tow my 7000/7500 lb boat without it, weight carrying. By design, less hitch weight and better handling because the axles are so far back there. That and I rarely go more than 100 miles each way.



Again, not trying to sound like a know it all, just sharing the experience of what I learned.

 

[diesel_driver]

I thought I might chime in on this one. I have been researching this very topic for the past 2 months. I have a 2004 SB 3500 4x4 HO automatic. I ordered it equiped with the factory tow package. This hitch is a class 4. The specifications are as follows:

Gross trailer weight 12,000 lbs. Gross tongue weight is 350 lbs WITHOUT weight distribution system, and 1,200 lbs WITH weight distribution system.

The interesting thing to me about these specifications is the factory step bumper. The bumper is rated as a class 3 hitch. The maximum tongue weight on the bumper is 500 lbs. The bumper bolts to the same location as the factory installed class 4 hitch, and yet it is rated to carry 150 lbs more tongue weight. Go figure! I am almost to the point of hiring an engineer to do a quick analysis on load paths, etc. to determine the reason for the stated need to use a weight distribution system. I have a few more specifics if anyone is interested.

Ted

-- email address removed --

 

[Kirwin]

My $.02 (again)

Diesel Driver where did you get that 350 lb number? That makes no sense. If the truck can carry 1200 lbs with a WD hitch it should carry 1200 lbs without. The weight on the hitch equates to weight on the rear axle plus some added weight for leverage. All a WD hitch does is transfer some of the weight back to the front axle and thus help restore ride height in the rear. Based on the towing guide for the older trucks (I can't seem to locate the towing guide for the 2005s on the Dodge website) being rated some where between 500 and 1200 lbs, I find it hard to believe that the 04 HD pickups are suddenly rated for less tounge weight than either the Fords or Chevys. Traditionally a trailer is designed to put 10-15% of the trailer weight on the tounge to increase stability. I bring this up because there is a lot of confusion between hitch ratings and what Dodge says you can have for trailer weight and tounge weight. These numbers are rarely the same. Its has been my experience with my 4 tow vehicles that the hitch ratings are always more than Dodge will allow. I don't know what the 2004 towing guide says, but up to 02 Dodge said any trailer over 10,000 lbs GVW had to use a fifth wheel hitch even though there are hitches available out there that go all the way to 14K ratings. For instance on my 97, Dodge says 900 lbs tounge weight max, 16K max GCVW. Well with a truck that weighs 8K that only leaves you 8K for the trailer. Not much trailer for a diesel powered heavy duty pickup. 15% of 8k is 1,200 LBS. So in this example I would exceed the max tounge weight but not the GCVW of the truck/trailer combination. We need a standard that works here and hopefully soon there will be one! All of the above IMHO. Ken Irwin

 

[Kirwin]

From the 2004 Dodge towing guide

Here is what it says for a 2004 4X4 SB HO automatic SRW truck: Between 13,950 and 16,000 lbs max trailer weight depending on axle ratio and ST vs SLT vs Laramie. Notes 3 and 4 apply. Note 3 talks about that the maximum trailer weight must be reduced by optional equipment and any additional passenger or cargo weight as the truck is rated for 1 150 LB driver onboard.



Note 4 states "A gooseneck or fifth wheel hitch attached to the vehicle frame, should be used if the trailer being towed weighs over 5,443 KG (12,000 lb. ) or has more than 544 kg (1200 lb. ) tounge weight. "



I see the reference for the 350 lb max tounge weight in the towing guide on page 6 but it is used to referene a class II hitch. Hope this helps. Ken Irwin

 

[Rockcrawler]

All a WD hitch does is transfer some of the weight back to the front axle and thus help restore ride height in the rear.

But how does it do this? It applies a rotational torque on the receiver hitch assy in the opposite direction of the hitch weight alone.



Let's say you've got 1200 lbs. using an off the shelf ballmount, I measured 22" from the center of the ball to the center of the tube where it attaches to the frame (a bit longer than one would expect due to the way the receiver curves around the spare tire) That's 2200 ft lbs of torque applied to the frame/hitch mounting point, now go over some bumps/railroad tracks for an added impact load.



If you crawl under your truck and study the way the hitch mounts (which you actually can't truly appreciate til you R & R one) you'll see that it does not have the typical brackets that spread this torque load over 18+" of your frame rail. There in lies the problem that will eventually lead to sag from the torque at the mounting location- regardless if you believe DC wants you to tow 1200 lbs WC or not.



There are three ways to go-



add to your existing hitch by fabbing some brackets that spread this load to the frame and tow WC. (weld to the hitch/bolt to the frame) If you design it wrong you wiill need torches/plasma cutter to remove or replace the hitch.



Replace the hitch or supplement it with another hitch with such a design and tow WC



or use a WD system that DC may or may not require for that big a load. With this sytem you can and do neutralize this torque load at the end of the frame rails which loads the chassis more evenly for better handling. The sway control from the equalizer brand design is a huge secondary beneftit.



With all the money we spend on out trucks, toys and equipment I don't get why people would be shy about using a WD hitch when there is so much benefit.

 

[InThinAir]

Well I give up... I am just gonna attach my trailer to the dang hitch and if it start to sag... Well then I will take it over to the dealership and set the cruise and send it in for some service, if you know what I mean...



I see people all the time with their hitch attached to some srazy stuff, saw a s10 with a bobcat on a trailer attached to the actual Bumper hitch. that sucker was only class 1... I have always tried to be within specs for weight capacity, but this is ridiculus. My 2500 has a reese titan, I tow a 3 horse trailer with tack area fully loaded it is around 7k. I knew on the 01 stock was 500/5000 WC, so I upgraded. So now the 3rd gens have a bumper that is 500/5000 WC, and the hitch is 1200/12000 WD but it can't haul a red flyer wagon if it is attacted WC.



I won't do a WD hitch, first thing is my horse trailer goes to places that would snap that system is a second. And second my wife couldn't hook it up on her own, so no go.



So I guess Dodge has made a big mistake here... They designed a truck that can't have a practical aftermarket hitch application and put on the wussiest hitch on the market. Good Thinkin! for the life of me a don't understand why Ford sells more trucks??



Looks like it is time to get the bad boy sticker in the window pissin' on the Ram head!!!



---Doug

 

[Rockcrawler]

That's funny Doug, and i do get it. FWIW, I've got a 12k equalizer which has solid 1. 5 sq bars for the weight dist. I get into some pretty rough spots hauling my junk to the races (I just lifted my race trailer 2" and put an 8'x 8" skid plate across the now straightened back crossmember)



I personally think you'll be fine with your situation- my main concern/warning is for those guys that are maxing at 1200 or the "S10 crowd" that says "looks good, the front tires are still on the ground"

 

[DPelletier]

If the truck can carry 1200 lbs with a WD hitch it should carry 1200 lbs without. The weight on the hitch equates to weight on the rear axle plus some added weight for leverage. All a WD hitch does is transfer some of the weight back to the front axle and thus help restore ride height in the rear. Ken Irwin

Wrong,

The WD hitch changes the point loading of the individual fasteners connecting the hitch to the frame AS WELL as the weight transfer issue. I hope you are using the WD bars with your 1700 lbs tongue weight or you will have a problem.



Dave



Oops, I see Rockcrawler has already clarified the WD/torque issue. Sorry