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K & N.........junk!!!!!!!!!
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It would be a mistake to beleive that paper filters are dirt-tight. They are not. Paper filters work by being full of holes. Yeah, like a screen. When you put a new one in, it is manufactured to have a porosity small enough to catch most dirt. As you use it, dirt begins plugging the larger passages, and as they plug up, it begins to trap finer and finer particles until it's plugged solid.
In other words, as you use a paper filter, it goes from bad to better at filtering, but good to bad at airflow. Engineers have come up with a variety of means of coping with this: Deeper pleats, waxed elements (works like oiling it), outside wraps, and so on. None of them overcome the inherent problems with paper, when it comes to moisture (swells the paper, softens it, releases dirt when it dries), and quick plugging. I switched to a K&N in my Chrysler, when a 14 inch paper element that was only about 3 months old ripped a hole in it. I had been in a dusty environment, and didn't realize I'd plugged the darn thing so bad. I was on the highway and stomped it to pass someone. I noticed the car lacked power badly and then suddenly took off. Fortunately, I did check under the hood a few days later and found the hole in the filter. That 440 literally tore it open to get more air.
Also, I went with a K&N in my Power Wagon, when a paper filter was so plugged in just 2 months of normal driving (3000 miles) that the truck had become very weak. After changing it, I discovered I could track it's performance loss after each pass down the 5 miles of gravel to my house. I also found a faint "dusting" inside the filter housing.
I took my filter housing apart, pressure washed it, and then slightly "oiled" it on the inside. After 3 months of driving across the same gravel to work, no dirt inside and no performance loss at all. In the same environment, I drove my Chrysler for more than a year without cleaning that K&N, yet, when I finally did clean it, I found not the slightest trace of dirt inside the element. My air filter housing was discolored badly, but after investigating, it was caused by fuel splash from the TBI, not dirt.
Cleaning the filter put a layer of dirt in the sink that covered the bottom c ompletely. I noticed there was at least a 1/16 inch of dirt covering the outside and more buried inside. Each dirty paper filter would drop only a fine ring of dirt when tapped. If the engine took in the same air (and same dirt) each time, where did the dirt go? It wasn't stuck to the filter, like the K&N. Did it go through it? I don't know. I only know that the K&N will have accumulated far more visible dirt in the same miles than the paper filters will. I also know that treating them wrong will open them up to leaking dirt.
In normal service, is your Cummins going to wear out from the dirt that passes through the paper element anytime soon? Absolutely not. Users of both paper and K&N have driven the engines well past 1/2 million miles and still be in good condition. Can servicing damage a K&N and make it dust your engine? Absolutely.
If you were Cummins or Chrysler, and had no way of knowing just how well the customer would follow directions on his K&N, and needed to make the best bet for warranty purposes... . Of course they'd tell you not to use K&N.
I read a letter once, on the Ford site, I believe, from a K&N engineer, that stated their product far exceeded the dirt trapping tests the SAE applied to air filters, and would trap almost any size of dust particle, even the super-fine, as opposed to only the larger ones a new paper filter will. However, the SAE tests can't be directly applied to a K&N because it flows so much more air, and the SAE tests are based upon pressure drop, not CFM flow.
In other words, as you use a paper filter, it goes from bad to better at filtering, but good to bad at airflow. Engineers have come up with a variety of means of coping with this: Deeper pleats, waxed elements (works like oiling it), outside wraps, and so on. None of them overcome the inherent problems with paper, when it comes to moisture (swells the paper, softens it, releases dirt when it dries), and quick plugging. I switched to a K&N in my Chrysler, when a 14 inch paper element that was only about 3 months old ripped a hole in it. I had been in a dusty environment, and didn't realize I'd plugged the darn thing so bad. I was on the highway and stomped it to pass someone. I noticed the car lacked power badly and then suddenly took off. Fortunately, I did check under the hood a few days later and found the hole in the filter. That 440 literally tore it open to get more air.
Also, I went with a K&N in my Power Wagon, when a paper filter was so plugged in just 2 months of normal driving (3000 miles) that the truck had become very weak. After changing it, I discovered I could track it's performance loss after each pass down the 5 miles of gravel to my house. I also found a faint "dusting" inside the filter housing.
I took my filter housing apart, pressure washed it, and then slightly "oiled" it on the inside. After 3 months of driving across the same gravel to work, no dirt inside and no performance loss at all. In the same environment, I drove my Chrysler for more than a year without cleaning that K&N, yet, when I finally did clean it, I found not the slightest trace of dirt inside the element. My air filter housing was discolored badly, but after investigating, it was caused by fuel splash from the TBI, not dirt.
Cleaning the filter put a layer of dirt in the sink that covered the bottom c ompletely. I noticed there was at least a 1/16 inch of dirt covering the outside and more buried inside. Each dirty paper filter would drop only a fine ring of dirt when tapped. If the engine took in the same air (and same dirt) each time, where did the dirt go? It wasn't stuck to the filter, like the K&N. Did it go through it? I don't know. I only know that the K&N will have accumulated far more visible dirt in the same miles than the paper filters will. I also know that treating them wrong will open them up to leaking dirt.
In normal service, is your Cummins going to wear out from the dirt that passes through the paper element anytime soon? Absolutely not. Users of both paper and K&N have driven the engines well past 1/2 million miles and still be in good condition. Can servicing damage a K&N and make it dust your engine? Absolutely.
If you were Cummins or Chrysler, and had no way of knowing just how well the customer would follow directions on his K&N, and needed to make the best bet for warranty purposes... . Of course they'd tell you not to use K&N.
I read a letter once, on the Ford site, I believe, from a K&N engineer, that stated their product far exceeded the dirt trapping tests the SAE applied to air filters, and would trap almost any size of dust particle, even the super-fine, as opposed to only the larger ones a new paper filter will. However, the SAE tests can't be directly applied to a K&N because it flows so much more air, and the SAE tests are based upon pressure drop, not CFM flow.
Powerwagon,
That statement covers the entire aftermarket field.
They try to build these trucks idiot proof.
They won't take a chance saying,"K&N is fine IF, IF you take care of it properly. "
Can you imagine a Neon salesman telling you how to drive by the Pyro?
Gene
Hey powerwagon- at least I can't SEE THROUGH the paper filter!!!!!!
These k&n and oil threads HAVE TO GO, we have better things to talk about. At least I THINK we do!! Maybe not?:-{}
They always end the same way: #@$%!
These k&n and oil threads HAVE TO GO, we have better things to talk about. At least I THINK we do!! Maybe not?:-{}
They always end the same way: #@$%!
I've seen from personal experience that the K & N filter in the stock airbox will not seal properly. If you have one, open up the airbox and look at the grease bead you were instructed to put down along the edges of the filter. If that grease bead isn't smashed, then it's not sealing against the lid of the airbox. I've seen a comparable filter from a competitor, and the edge of THEIR filter is rounded and raised for an excellent seal against the airbox lid. And the Amsoil air filters are foam from edge to edge, it seals by virtue of being compressed between the two airbox sections.
The K & N filter in most applications is excellent, and I love them, but they missed the mark on this one, for our stock airboxes.
A little tube of SuperLube is supposed to make up for an engineering oversight?
Speaking from years of mechanical experience, and observations of several friends' Cummins Rams that were formerly using the stock airbox with a K & N.
The K & N filter in most applications is excellent, and I love them, but they missed the mark on this one, for our stock airboxes.
A little tube of SuperLube is supposed to make up for an engineering oversight?
Speaking from years of mechanical experience, and observations of several friends' Cummins Rams that were formerly using the stock airbox with a K & N.
I absolutely agree Briar. If they know they need something to improve the seal why the heck would then not engineer it into the product? Instead they tell you to grease the edge. How about if your drain plug on the oil pan needed silicone or it would leak? Same thing to me. I cannot believe that this has not been done yet. I have not tried an Amsoil filter, but I have seen them and the filter edge is 10 times better than the K&N, as is the AFE that fits the stock box. I have also seen a K&N installed according properly according to the instructions, right out of the box oiled by the factory, that had oily grime built up on the compressor wheel after a few thousand miles. Why was it that way? The seal was leaking and it was over oiled, the product needs to be improved.
EDIT: CAnderson, you can use the option of not clicking on topics you think are a waste of time rather than moaning about them on the threads you don't like. If you don't like it don't read it.
EDIT: CAnderson, you can use the option of not clicking on topics you think are a waste of time rather than moaning about them on the threads you don't like. If you don't like it don't read it.
I will maintain my opinion because if it keeps one person from damaging their engine, then it did some good. This is my experience with these "filters". I have never used a k&n on a second gen. The only time I used one was on my old truck, a first gen. THE FIRST GEN AIR BOXES DO NOT HAVE ANY SEALING PROBLEMS!!! And I will maintain that if I can see through a filter, it is not going to do a good job. My intake never had oil in it, but always had plenty of fine dust in it. On one cleaning, I used almost an entire can of k&n oil in an effort to make the dust stick better. Did it work? No! I drive in some very dusty conditions some times, and all the extra oil did was make some nasty build up of dirt where the air entered the box. Still that fine dust in the tube going to the turbo. I will repeat, there was no possibility of it not sealing 100%. Some of the dust was going right through that thin layer of oiled gauze, and into my engine. :{ I am sure that if you don't ever drive in dusty areas, a k&n will work fine for you, and you will never see anything in the area past the filter. I don't drive in the dust-free world, and won't use or recomend the use of k&n filters. Again these are just my experiences, I will not gaurentee that they will do so poorly for everyone.
BTW, if you know that they don't care enough to design a filter to seal properly in the box, what makes you think they care about how well the filter media works? Why would you buy one if that is the case? Why not just go and buy an aFe, which you know at least seals better?
BTW, if you know that they don't care enough to design a filter to seal properly in the box, what makes you think they care about how well the filter media works? Why would you buy one if that is the case? Why not just go and buy an aFe, which you know at least seals better?
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These k&n and oil threads HAVE TO GO, we have better things to talk about. At least I THINK we do!! Maybe not?:-{}
They always end the same way: #@$%!
This ^^^^^^ is what I was referring to when I said don't read them, not that you have not had a bad experience with K&N. I do not use a K&N and will not, I have seen the same thing you had happen on your first gen on other trucks.
These threads do not "have to go", people that don't like them need to read other threads, that is my point.
drawson
TDR MEMBER
Check your air boxes
I have seen two OE air boxes that would seal on any paper or K&N type filter, there bottoms where worped enough that the stock filters weren't even touching towards the exhaust side of the housing. The first one was a 98. 5 24 valve and the other a 95 12 valve neither was bombed when this problems was found.
Neither of these where mine in fact one of these guys has my old filter box. And in the other is an Amsoil Filter.
I have never seen any signs of dirt in my turbo and my oil have never broken 10 in silicon.
In my book a cone filter is the way to goOo. Oo.
I have seen two OE air boxes that would seal on any paper or K&N type filter, there bottoms where worped enough that the stock filters weren't even touching towards the exhaust side of the housing. The first one was a 98. 5 24 valve and the other a 95 12 valve neither was bombed when this problems was found.
Neither of these where mine in fact one of these guys has my old filter box. And in the other is an Amsoil Filter.
I have never seen any signs of dirt in my turbo and my oil have never broken 10 in silicon.
In my book a cone filter is the way to goOo. Oo.
You guys are soooo lame. I'm just using window screen, you can shape it like a cone, a BHAF or even pour Amsoil on it. It also fits in a Physcotty. If it's really dusty just double it. If you look at it at night no light shines though. Whenever it gets clogged you just rub your hand back and forth on it like a grater till the big stuff passes though. This cleaning method works best with the wastegate disabled and engine at top rpm. Just make sure no one is near the exhaust tip while doing this, small rocks tend to eject at high speed. I've been usin' this hyar system on mah 67 truck Cummins fleet fo' on over 218. 6 miles an' they all helter-skelter great. Tar mah hide.
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Originally posted by CAnderson
Hey powerwagon- at least I can't SEE THROUGH the paper filter!!!!!!
These k&n and oil threads HAVE TO GO, we have better things to talk about. At least I THINK we do!! Maybe not?:-{}
They always end the same way: #@$%!
You can't see through a paper element? sure you can. Just hold a light up inside and notice how it's nothing but a mass of holes large enough to see light beam through.
But seeing through a K&N has nothing to do with it's filtering ability. Frankly, I can't see through any of mine, although I understand you can sort of see through the flat panels.
Disagreement is the food of the intellect... personal bashing is the food of fools... Let's make sure we're feeding the right beast.
Air filtration is one of my fortes. I've worked with air filters everyday for 27 years now - from throwaway furnace filters to ULPA (99. 999@. 2 micron absolute efficiency) for cleanrooms - and they are paper! I have yet to see an oiled lawnmower filter in a cleanroom. It's ABSURD to compare an oiled rag with the porosity of a K&N to paper!! Look at the sun through it! Sure, there can be misapplications with anything and ANY air filter is subject to moisture and of course they can blowout when plugged. When Donaldson, Filtra and Farr start building K&N type filters for cleanroom and operating rooms, I'll switch. Craig
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Yah, I'm sure there's an absolute necessity to keep my Cummins clean and free of allergens, pollen, germs, and airborne viruses. Just kidding. Uh, was that a sneeze or a cough? No... . just lifted off the throttle too fast. 
Now, CSchomer, don't get mad at me ! I do respect your viewpoint. There's a lot of us out here, however, that just don't trust any kind of air filter. The turbocharger is the main complication.
Just kidding. Uh, was that a sneeze or a cough? No... . just lifted off the throttle too fast. Now, CSchomer, don't get mad at me ! I do respect your viewpoint. There's a lot of us out here, however, that just don't trust any kind of air filter. The turbocharger is the main complication.
I think I am running the same filter as illflem. I have not found any dust in the intake or exhaust. I think this is because as illflem says, when you rub your hand back and forth on it like a grater till the big stuff passes though.
I sure hope one of the guys that got uptight on one of the other threads doesn’t read this one, he would get really ******.
I think you guys are great, keep arguing (debating) each time someone learns a little more. As previously stated, we can change threads with the click of the mouse.
It appears to me, everything that could happen, oil or otherwise, has been posted. If no re-runs, then what else is there to discuss?
Wayne
I sure hope one of the guys that got uptight on one of the other threads doesn’t read this one, he would get really ******.
I think you guys are great, keep arguing (debating) each time someone learns a little more. As previously stated, we can change threads with the click of the mouse.
It appears to me, everything that could happen, oil or otherwise, has been posted. If no re-runs, then what else is there to discuss?
Wayne
Am I going to assume this campaign of safety is going to apply to fuel plates, bigger injectors, fueling alteration boxes (like the Edge and Van Aaken), larger turbos, propane systems and perhaps even the nitrous systems, too? How about overdrives, large campers, trailer towing, bigger wheels, oversize tires and offset wheels? Do we also extend it to bad waxes, parking under trees and living where the ozone eats the rubber parts?
Or maybe we should all just buy 4 wheel pedal cars so we can't hurt ourselves, live in communes with cops at every door and UV filters everwhere we go outdoors, and drink only distilled water? Am I to assume you eat no hamburgers and drink no alcohol, consume no coffee, nor indulge occaisionally at Baskin Robins 31 flavors? Do you boil your steaks (if you eat meat) instead of making carcinogens on the barbeque? Do you have an electromagnetic screen between this monitor you're staring at right now, and you, to avoid any risk from radiation?
The fact is, everything is a risk, including driving down to the filling station and paynig the "professional" to fill the darn truck for ya. As far as I'm concerned, I'm fully capable of taking the risks I take, avoiding the ones I don't want to take, and making good judgements about which those will be. And guess what, you and I don't agree on this list, I'm sure. Using the darn paper filter is a risk, since manufacturing tolerances can easily allow damaging dirt through them.
As far as I'm concerned, my ability to properly use a K&N AND seal it is far less of a risk than putting some chunk of machine produced, mass production and uninspected scrap of perforated paper between the wide world and my turbo and cylinder walls. Maybe it's not for some people, but who am I to demand they not take that chance? And who are you to do it as well? Everyone who talks to me about a K&N in person gets a lecture on how it must be cleaned as instructed and not doing so means you're going to have big-time trouble. I never reccommend them for a company truck, or fleet operation, since only owners are concerned enough to care for thier investment properly.
But I'm not so fanatical about it that I'm going to tell everyone they leak dirt when they don't. At least not when things are as they should be. As for risks, people are far more at risk taking thier truck to the quickie lube place and ending up with some unknown quality aftermarket oil filter, or the wrong oil completely, than carefully and intellegently using a superior, but fragile, air filter.
Dollar per dollar, I bet a tack-type of filter will outperform a restriction type filter every day of the week, every week of the year, and every year of the millenium.
I'll also bet that Donaldson, Filtra and Farr will make a heaping big bunch more money making paper filters you have to buy repeatedly forever (that do the job, mind you) than one-shot wonders that leave results up to the wits of the maintainer. And, since my last statement covers the reality of the situation, you'll never see any of them "risk" the quality of thier product's performance on YOUR performance.
I don't mean to imply that paper filters are any large risk. I said quite the opposite in my posts. I was trying to point out that "risk" is simply unavoidable. And, when it comes to using a K&N vs paper, I believe the risk is less, not greater... but that's because it's up to me, not someone else.
I can spot a bad place in a K&N, and have before. It happens. but, then again, I could and did spot it, too.
Here are the SAE tests:
#ad
#ad
Here is the specification vs the peformance:
I hope this settles some of these things... facts tend to be in short supply... so here are some.
#ad#adHere is the specification vs the peformance:
I hope this settles some of these things... facts tend to be in short supply... so here are some.
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Digital Magazines
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Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
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