Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Killer Dowel Pin, looking at it with Borescope?

[WAHarrison]

Killer Dowel Pin?

Has any one investigated the idea of looking at the pin with a bore scope to see if it is moving out? I have a 17 inch bore scope for rifle barrels that could be used if I knew what to look for and where to put the hole to insert it to see the pin.



Just at thought, as I consider the time to fix this this thing. At this time in life, time seems more important than money. Never thought that would be the case.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Give it a shot, take the oil fill tube out and run it through the opening if it's not too big!



Jim

 

[Reb.B]

and look at it every other day to make sure it hasn't moved, I don't think so. U just need to pull the cover and tab it, END OF STORY, lol. why people just don't take the time to do it, i don't underdtand, and why people want to put metal in their pan by drilling the hole in the weak cover i can't understand either (when using the jig method).

 

[illflem]

Reb. B, have you ever seen metal shavings inside the case after following the directions on the jig fix?

I'm sure you haven't because absolutely none fall in, you're only spreading a rumor.

By the way the jig hole is drilled though the side of the case not the "weak cover. "

I've removed two covers personally right after the jig fix and there were no chips in the case. Others have reported the same.



As for the bore scope, about the only way to see the dowel pin with one would be to drill a hole in the case, probably in the same location for the jig fix or in the cover directly in front of it. You will still have to remove most all the same components that you would for the jig fix.

I don't think you will be able to get the scope past the gears from the oil fill.

Your time would be better spent drilling a hole with a jig and pinning it or removing the cover and tabbing it. Jigging the pin will take two hours max, most do it in under an hour. You'll spend more time than that just cleaning up the oil in your driveway if a loose dowel pin busts your cover.

 

[Gifford]

kdp

If you do get some shavings in there (I think I probobly did) what harm could the aluminum shavings cause (I didnt exactly follow the directions... )

 

[Joe G.]

WAHarrison,



Not worth the effort to attempt to use a bore scope.



After thinking it over I don't think the aluminum shavings are a problem anyway. I just don't like the idea of getting them in the works. A little air pressure can prevent that, but may not be worth the effort.





advantages/disadvantages of each method:



Jig.

Advantages.

Minimum amount of work.

Minimum expense. Might have to buy a cheap screw.



Disadvantages.

Gotta wait for a jig.

When you get it you have to do the job soon and get it in the mail to the next user. (else jig controller has temper fit).

No idea what the situation is regarding the KDP. It may have fallen out already. Gear case screws may be loose.





Tab.

Advantages.

No waiting.

No rush to get it done.

Easy to inspect KDP situation. (This one is worth a lot to me. )

Able to loctite and tighten gear case screws.



Disadvantages.

Costs more. About $50 for gasket and seal. Minor expense for screw and loktite.

More work. About an hour or two depending on ability.

Need to know how to cuss. Crank seal can be a PITA to put in case cover.





Both methods.

READ THE INSTRUCTIONS!!!!





Anything to add, Bill?

 

[illflem]

You said it all Joe, the advantages and disadvantages of each method pretty much balance out, neither method is better than the other except that you don't get as dirty doing a jig fix = priceless

If you have a another reason to pull the case cover such as a seal or gasket leak the tab method is better.

 

[Dave Fleming]

NOT being a mechanic but having done some little boring into various materials AND watching very closely the fellow, fine mechanic, IMOOP, that is. That case is some Al alloy fairly soft and with grease on the bit and tap and the 3 PSI air pressure in the system. I'm bettin' that precious few bits of case made it into the oil. But if anyone is that worried about the chips then I guess the tab method is the one for you. I had less than 55,000 in milage when I had mine done. I had a tab as well as the jig and if the drill hit the bloody thing at least I was ready to have him go ahead with the tab method.

About a week after he did mine, I got a call from him asking if I still had the Tab? I replied yes and he asked if he could buy it for he was doing a gasket job on another Doogie and found the pin about 3/16 ths. proud of the hole( approx. 80,000 miles on it)! I went right over to his shop gave him the Tab and told him that he should get his arse in gear and order a handful of them for the future as well as laying out for a jig. He took my 'candid' suggestions well and said he would do it as soon as he was able. Which reminds me, I should get another Tab myself and also send a nice gratuity to John for making the jigs available to us.

PS: I did not take his money for the Tab. Public Relations don'cha know.

 

[TPCDrafting]

WAH, If you're so inclined and since bore scopes are kinda fun to use, if it'll fit into the jig hole, stick it in there and look around before you put in the bolt. Heck you could look for shavings while you're in there, but as stated above if done properly you most likely won't find any. Either way, get it done, I'm slated for next month for a tab as my seal is leaking anyway. (Preemptive thanks to R. Ebel)

 

[Reb.B]

the jig method is a sloppy, and a LAZY way to fix a problem. Who in the hell would want to put aluminum shavings in a $6000 dollar motor. I just can't figure it out. u can't see where the dowel is so u don't have piece of mind, its drilled into a WEAK aluminum case with about 100% shere force put on the pin and case if the dowel dicides to get mad, if u have too much air pressure the seals blow out, and u can get metal shaving in the oil, which can wipe out a bearring, get in a oil ring, block an oil passage, block the oil cooler, there are many potential hazards to the jig method. The tab method is the best way to do the job unless u want to buy a case that covers the dowel, which would cost a fortune. Theres a right way and a wrong way to do things in this world. The jig is NOT the right way. Take a little time, spend a little more money, and love your CUMMINS a little more. I do, and i have piece of mind that i am doing things the way.

 

[Reb.B]

oo, here's an idea, ask any Cummins mechanic (mechanic working for Cummins) and ask them which way they would fix the problem.

 

[R.ebel]

Re: kdp

Originally posted by Gifford

If you do get some shavings in there (I think I probobly did) what harm could the aluminum shavings cause (I didnt exactly follow the directions... )

Any shavings that get into the oil system will likely be contained by the oil filter AFTER THEY PASS THROUGH THE OIL PUMP, which is not a good thing! This is assuming that the oil filter is not in bypass mode which happens for a short duration during a cold startup due to thick oil. If not contained by the oil filter due to bypass mode the shavings will get sent to the bearings or the piston cooling nozzles or possibly lodge in the oil cooler



Gifford, not flaming you just food for thought.

 

[Mel Fuelling]

If you have the urge to rush a kdp job, have someone else do it.

I believe any of the methods discussed will solve the problem if

you have a little experience and take the time to do it right.



I have had very little experience with the 5. 9 and am usually more

nervous doing my own than someone else's, so I pulled the front cover off so that I could see what I was doing(then you still need a light and a mirror). I drove my upper dowel pin back into the motor about 4mm, used a gouge punch to upset 3 burrs in the bore up against the pin and then cleaned the bore with brake cleaner, blew it dry and used blue loctite in the bore. My front seal was seeping and needed replacement, so it was logical to me to do both at once, while taking it apart so that I could see what I was doing.



If I had been inside of a 5. 9 very many times before, I might have been more comfortable with another of the approaches. I believe I spent 3 1/2 hours on it. It took me a while to get the front seal started into the front cover straight(it likes to bounce) and it took

me a while to check all of the bolts under the cover with a torque wrench. I had 4 or 5 that weren't real loose, but took 90 to 105

degrees to bring back up to 18 ft/lbs(or as close to that as I could guess on a couple that you can't get a torque wrench on).



Tightening everything up inside and outside of the front cover seemed to make a lot of the low rpm "torqe rattle" go away in

my 5. 9.



However you do it, this is a poor project to rush through IMHO.



How do you get even margins when you post a reply? I write my replies with even margins, but when I review or submit them, they look pretty bad.



Mel

 

[Tom C]

Has anyone experianced any problems after using the jig method?



I thing it worked great. well... . all but getting a bunch a metal ships blown in my face

 

[illflem]

Originally posted by Reb. B

oo, here's an idea, ask any Cummins mechanic (mechanic working for Cummins) and ask them which way they would fix the problem.

First they will tell you it isn't needed. Here's part of a letter from them decribing their fix



Response from Cummins on the dowel pin



"Inspection and securing of the upper dowel pin:



1. Remove the damper, pulley and gear cover from front of engine.



2. Tap on the dowel pin with a flat punch to insure that it is seated in the bore.



3. Clean all the oil from area with solvent and dry completely.



4. Apply some wicking type Locktite on the dowel pin and housing and let the Locktite cure.



5. Reinstall the cover with a new seal and gasket.



6. Reinstall damper and pulley.



We hope this helps you understand the dowel issue better.

signed Cummins"



I have about 80k on my jig fix, have personally done over thirty and the NW jig alone has done at least 150 with no problems. I'm sure if someone had a problem we'd all hear about it.



Reb. B Bashing something you obviously know very little about just reduces your creditability to nothing.

 

[Joe G.]

Bill,



That's the Cummins company response, not a mechanic's. Maybe Pablo will chime in and give us a mechanic's point of view. From what I have seen in his posts and e-mails he was fixed several KDP failures, but, as far as I can tell, he has not installed any preventive measures. You may recall his post about pulling the cam gear and heating it to reinstall it after replaceing the gear case.

 

[nfox]

Borescope

I took my oil fill spout off and tried to stick my borescope in the front cover to see if the pin had moved and no dice, there is not enough room to get by the front cover and gears.

 

[Reb.B]

illflem, its about theory. The jig way is BS. i made my point and i'm stickin' with it. It takes a little longer to do the tab way, but it is the best way to do it. Tell me i'm wrong Bill. Are u going to tell me the jig is a safer fix than the tab? Lets get it straight right now. I'm not flaming u, and i'm not discrediting your mechanical ability (i know u know your stuff), but i think everybody knows that the tab method is safer and is the best way to do it. If there isn't a shop in a million miles and the jig is all u got, then that would be the best way, but with the jig in one hand and the tab in another, the tab is cleaner, stronger, and worry free.

also i'd like to share how i do the seal. it usually takes about 5 minutes. What u need to do is put the seal on top of the cover. Lightly tap it in (usually one side goes in first). Just put it in a little, then get a 2 x4 or a 2x6, put a rag around it, and hit the high side easy, until its started, then let it have it. after its flush, get the little tool and push it in just a little bit, like 1/8" or maybe just a little more so the dust seal will fit over it when installing the balancer. Hope this helps, Reb

 

[Briar Hopper]

You can have your theories, Reb. B, and we'll have ours. The jig fix is not BS. It was designed, devised and built for all of us in the TDR by a master machinist, a person so experienced and talented that few of us here can hope to approach his level. I've seen more of his handiwork up close than just the jig. It knocked my socks off. If it wasn't safe and structurally sound from a technical and quality standpoint, I know that he would not have gone ahead with the kit.

Tab or jig, whatever, as long as it gets done !!! A tab fix can get botched too, you know? Depending on the experience and competence of the installer... .

 

[illflem]

I yet to hear of one jig fix go bad but have heard of two tabs breaking off (probably from not following instructions) and many misinstalled oil seals leaking.