Latest Oil Anlaysis report on my truck

[Texas Diesel]

I wondered that as well Gary. If a vacuum cleaner company puts their vac against a competitors they will make darn sure theirs wins hands down.



Something else you could look at by using synthetic oil. Less impact on the enviroment because of less oil to dispose of. No crude oils is used to make it, which means the ones trying to kill us aren't getting richer. Why do we buy bio-diesel? It sure isn't cheaper than good ol # 2 around here.

-Jason

Thats real simple. What RedLine is saying is that UNUSED Amsoil tested as advertised.



It was the USED oil that was run in their test engine where the additives break down in short time and hence, the larger wear scar.



That is where the deception (IMO) comes from.



Lests say it again, the FRESH Amsoil tested as advertised, it is the USED oil where the short life span additives breakdown.





Look at the first two bar graphs show this. The first wear scar is less. But after 338 look how deep that wear scar is.

The short life span additives are to blame.



You can see it in graphs.



I dont see how you guys could miss that

 

[Duluth Diesel]

I can make a graph to show anything I want. Also, their test engine presents too many variables. The oil was not run under perfectly scientific conditions. They threw the oil in a truck and drove it. Too many variables. What kind of oil filter, air filter, what engine temps were seen, driving conditions, weather conditions during the test, etc. They found 1 study where variables happened to fall in their favor, assuming their testing is honest, and present only that case. AMSOIL has countless test cases where they've run their oil in fleets of OTR trucks and done testing. Proof it works on a large scale. You cannot take 1 oil, run it through 1 home-brewed "test" with more variables that would ever be allowed, and call it fact. Redline is a good lubricant, but that "study" doesn't add up to a hill of beans.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I wondered that as well Gary. If a vacuum cleaner company puts their vac against a competitors they will make darn sure theirs wins hands down.



Something else you could look at by using synthetic oil. Less impact on the enviroment because of less oil to dispose of. No crude oils is used to make it, which means the ones trying to kill us aren't getting richer. Why do we buy bio-diesel? It sure isn't cheaper than good ol # 2 around here.

-Jason

I certainly have nothing against synthetics - Amsoil's or otherwise, and would use one myself it it wasn't for cost - nor am I comfortable using extended drains to offset the extra expense of synthetics.



Our climate here is colder than where we came from - but I don't drive enough in the winter to need or justify the better flowing synthetics - and summers are generally decent enough that unusual heat isn't a problem either.



Even at that, I do use Amsoil for my Honda 2KW generator, mostly due to it's better stability over long storage and irregular usage - and then, some of the drivetrain lubes in my truck are synthetic as well - at least the stuff in the DANA 80 - I got mine from Ford, since they use the same DANA we do...



One thing's for certain, we RARELY see anyone's mind changed in oil war debates! :-laf :-laf

 

[Texas Diesel]

One thing's for certain, we RARELY see anyone's mind changed in oil war debates! :-laf :-laf

Gawd, how I hate to agree with Gary Quick, someone make a note of this.



But he is correct! However, others read and dont post, their opinions have to be affected.



:-laf

 

[amsoilman]

It was the USED oil that was run in their test engine where the additives break down in short time and hence, the larger wear scar.



That is where the deception (IMO) comes from.



Lests say it again, the FRESH Amsoil tested as advertised, it is the USED oil where the short life span additives breakdown.



Look at the first two bar graphs show this. The first wear scar is less. But after 338 look how deep that wear scar is.

The short life span additives are to blame.



You can see it in graphs.



I dont see how you guys could miss that

USED Engine oils are NEVER tested for wear using the ASTM D4172 Test method!

As said before, to many contaminants! How could you miss that!



If I run an engine oil for X miles, and I have fuel dilution, the ATSM D4172 test method is certainly going to show MORE wear, than a new oil!



NO OIL Company that I know of would EVER test a USED oil for wear using the ASTM D 4172 Test method! The ASTM D4172 test method is for NEW oil! NOT USED oils!

AS far as an oil Company doctoring up an oil for a test, you must realize, when oils are made, there are thousands of gallons that are formulted, and not just one or two quarts for testing purposes.



I really think this has been beaten to death, so I am bowing out. You can carry on as you wish Texas Diesel. Some people can never accept facts, and are unwilling to learn.



Best regards,





Wayne



Doesn't anyone understand that?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Don't wander too far off Wayne - I sent in my last oil sample to Blackstone the first of this week - I'll post results when they arrive - this is the sample with the Amsoil/Donaldson full flow filter installed...

 

[Texas Diesel]

Quoted from the RedLine article at the link above:



"We at Red Line feel

strongly that protection of operating engines is much more

important than new antiwear numbers. We also find it very

curious that Amsoil chose not to compare their Series 2000

Race Oil with Red LIne Race Oil. Red Line Race Oil right out

of the bottle provides significantly better results than even the

unused Amsoil Series 2000 and what is unique with the Red

Line is that the results again improve with engine operation

instead of rapidly degrading as with the Amsoil product. "



The supplied graphs show this occuring in the form of increasing coefficient of wear numbers.





"The Amsoil Series 2000 product

when subjected to testing after engine operation is definitely

not superior to Red Line Race Oils or Street Motor OIls. "



Amsoil claims to be #1



"What we found with

the Amsoil Series 2000 is consistent with our chemical

experience that many of these components are very chemically

reactive, which allows it to very aggressively react with

steel in the NEW oil test, but when exposed to the blowby

gases in the operating engine, these additives may be rapidly

deactivated, bringing the wear characteristics right back to

what you would find with a typical good synthetic oil. "



This is what I was getting at, that Amsoil provides LOW wear scar numbers initially because of additives that degrade rapidly.



In anyone's book this is very underhanded. But those who are making money off of selling it are not interested in these facts.



The first paragraph quoted above sums the whole deal up nicely. Amsoil exposed.



I was hoping to get some intelligent discussion about the article instead of more sales pitches right out of an Amsoil $50 dealer/overnight oil expert package.

 

[Texas Diesel]

I too have a sample off to BlackStone, results to be posted when they arrive.

 

[BHoerling]

Wayne

I found your oil analysis very interesting and thought I would share mine. I am new at generating replys/comments but here goes.

Iron 36 ppm, Chromium 2 ppm, lead 7 ppm, Copper 15 ppm, Alumnum 8 ppm, Silicon 9 ppm. TBN 8. 07

Miles on oil: 25128 , two quarts of oil added when changing oil filters

Miles on truck: 122759

Amsoil 5w-30



Duel by-pass system since 43000 miles

Amsoil through out system

1998. 5 4WD, 3:54 rear end, auto transmission

Have put on 83000 miles pulling 27 foot RV trailer, one defective LP now running the Fass system,that I won at the May Madness in Pahrump tuis last May.

Purchase my oil and filters from Cliff Gasper in Edgewood, Washington

Happy Amsoil customer

Bob

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne

I found your oil analysis very interesting and thought I would share mine. I am new at generating replys/comments but here goes.

Iron 36 ppm, Chromium 2 ppm, lead 7 ppm, Copper 15 ppm, Alumnum 8 ppm, Silicon 9 ppm. TBN 8. 07

Miles on oil: 25128 , two quarts of oil added when changing oil filters

Miles on truck: 122759

Amsoil 5w-30



Duel by-pass system since 43000 miles

Amsoil through out system

1998. 5 4WD, 3:54 rear end, auto transmission

Have put on 83000 miles pulling 27 foot RV trailer, one defective LP now running the Fass system,that I won at the May Madness in Pahrump tuis last May.

Purchase my oil and filters from Cliff Gasper in Edgewood, Washington

Happy Amsoil customer

Bob

I will respond by e-mail, Bob.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[DSpencer]

Quoted from the RedLine article at the link above:



"The Amsoil Series 2000 product

when subjected to testing after engine operation is definitely

not superior to Red Line Race Oils or Street Motor OIls. "



Amsoil claims to be #1



"What we found with

the Amsoil Series 2000 is consistent with our chemical

experience that many of these components are very chemically

reactive, which allows it to very aggressively react with

steel in the NEW oil test, but when exposed to the blowby

gases in the operating engine, these additives may be rapidly

deactivated, bringing the wear characteristics right back to

what you would find with a typical good synthetic oil. "



This is what I was getting at, that Amsoil provides LOW wear scar numbers initially because of additives that degrade rapidly.



In anyone's book this is very underhanded. But those who are making money off of selling it are not interested in these facts.



The first paragraph quoted above sums the whole deal up nicely. Amsoil exposed.



I was hoping to get some intelligent discussion about the article instead of more sales pitches right out of an Amsoil $50 dealer/overnight oil expert package.

I think you are way overreacting to what you are saying. According to Redline this racing oil has properties that make it not superior after it has been in the engine for some time. I haven't been able to download the test you are referencing but how many miles have been run on these engines in the test. Realize this is racing oil and not Diesel oil which you have been thrashing also.



According to your quote the Amsoil is no better than a good synthetic after its been exposed to use. Ok, its racing oil.



Do you have a test using any of the Amsoil diesel oils? I would be curious. Do you doubt the countless Amsoil users of DIESEL oils that have logged many hundreds of thousands of miles with extended drains? I would be interested if you are calling Amsoil a fraud and what evidence you have of that as if true I would quickly go back to regular changes. But from what I have read you haven't addressed the countless numbers of regular Amsoil users that have run their motor oils for 100 thousand miles or more on extended drains. I would think that would at least have some influence on anyone looking for objective information at least on the Amsoil diesel engine oils.



I have 67 thousand miles on my current oil and I need an analysis. I'll post my numbers when I get them too.



Anybody have any Redline or Royal Purple oil analysis's with say 50 thousand miles or more? I'd like to see that comparison.





I don't deal or sell oil but I do like Amsoil.

 

[Texas Diesel]

I'm glad that you are happy with your choice in lubricants and change intervals.



I'm not accusing Amsoil of outright fraud. But the report above shows that Amsoil uses short life span additives to get better initial wear test results. As RedLine points out, these additives degrade quickly.



I'm only trying to get this information out, that Amsoil's claim to be #1 is contested. I have suceeded.



What you do with the information is your buisness and I respect your choices. But atleast now you have heard something to keep the wild claims in balance.



I'm glad so many have read this thread and read the full redLine report. I have received emails from some who have been able to download the RedLine report and from those who cant. It seems to be a hit or miss download.



PM me your email address and I will send the .pdf file to you.



Perhaps people can email RedLine directly if they have specific questions.



quote:

"What we found with

the Amsoil Series 2000 is consistent with our chemical

experience that many of these components are very chemically

reactive, which allows it to very aggressively react with

steel in the new oil test, but when exposed to the blowby

gases in the operating engine, these additives may be rapidly

deactivated, bringing the wear characteristics right back to

what you would find with a typical good synthetic oil. "



The first graph shows Amsoils wear scar depth doubles after 338 miles of use in the test engine (real world conditions)



From the graph you can see that after 338 miles the short life span additives have worn off and Amsoil is "right back to what you would find with a typical good synthetic oil"



Not the wide margin of superiority that is advertised.



I dont have any long term data for other brands or Amsoil's Diesel.



A duck quacks no matter what pond it is swimming in so I would expect Amoils M. O. to be the same no matter what label is on the bottle.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wayne, and any other interested, here's my lates Blackstone analysis - the particle count details will come later in hard copy - as can be seen in comparing these latest numbers with the previous ones, this was slightly better. I'd be hesitant to assume the difference is because of the Amsoil/Donaldson full flow filter, rather than continuing settling in of internal parts - but the results sure are not WORSE! :-laf



On the other hand, particle count summary of 15/12 IS worse than the previous one, which was 13/10 - I'll wait for the detailed report before making any assumptions - could just be a random variable...



-

 

[steved]

Gary - What is the Molybdenum and Boron from? I assume Moly is a lubricant added to the oil and boron is a component of steel (as in an alloy)??? Or are they both lubricants within the oil??



Wayne - I think I asked this of you before, but do the Amsoil bypass filters have a pressure relief in them? In other words, if they become plugged, will they bypass the filter media?? Or will they simply "plug off"?? And by chance do you know what the breakthrough pressure of the filter media is (if the filter would plug)?? I'm running the EaBP100 currently...



steved

 

[amsoilman]

Gary - What is the Molybdenum and Boron from? I assume Moly is a lubricant added to the oil and boron is a component of steel (as in an alloy)??? Or are they both lubricants within the oil??



Wayne - I think I asked this of you before, but do the Amsoil bypass filters have a pressure relief in them? In other words, if they become plugged, will they bypass the filter media?? Or will they simply "plug off"?? And by chance do you know what the breakthrough pressure of the filter media is (if the filter would plug)?? I'm running the EaBP100 currently...



steved

Steved,

Since you specifically asked about the by-pass elements having "Pressure Relief" within the filter, the answer is NO. They are a By-pass filter,meaning they are connected in "Parallel" with the Full-Flow filter, in terms of how the oil flows. If you were to "PLUG" either of the oil lines, or the filter element itself, the flow of oil through the Full-Flow filter will not be effected.



Typically, you can tell if the element is not performing by feeling it after a long run. IF it is cool to the touch, it most likely is plugged. Personally, I have NEVER seen one of these "Plugged" to that point. However, the bottom of the filters will feel cooler than the top, as the bottom portion contains a large metal spring. (BE Series filters) The new one (Eabp) does not have this spring.



Hope this helps,



Wayne

 

[steved]

Steved,

Since you specifically asked about the by-pass elements having "Pressure Relief" within the filter, the answer is NO. They are a By-pass filter,meaning they are connected in "Parallel" with the Full-Flow filter, in terms of how the oil flows. If you were to "PLUG" either of the oil lines, or the filter element itself, the flow of oil through the Full-Flow filter will not be effected.



Typically, you can tell if the element is not performing by feeling it after a long run. IF it is cool to the touch, it most likely is plugged. Personally, I have NEVER seen one of these "Plugged" to that point. However, the bottom of the filters will feel cooler than the top, as the bottom portion contains a large metal spring. (BE Series filters) The new one (Eabp) does not have this spring.



Hope this helps,



Wayne

Thanks Wayne... I'm running a stand-alone bypass (not the remote fullflow/bypass filter setup)... plumbed from the top of the OE filter housing and returning to the oil filler cap, so I can see the flow return... I was just wondering if watching the flow returning to the cap was a good idea?? In other words, as the filter plugs I should see a decrease in oil return?? And at 80 psi (the max I have seen on my guage), it should plug and not flow oil if it would become that dirty?



I was just going to watch the flow return and continue changing the oil and fullflow filter as normal (10k intervals) without changing the bypass every 10k. Just wanted to make sure I was OK doing that...



steved

 

[amsoilman]

Thanks Wayne... I'm running a stand-alone bypass (not the remote fullflow/bypass filter setup)... plumbed from the top of the OE filter housing and returning to the oil filler cap, so I can see the flow return... I was just wondering if watching the flow returning to the cap was a good idea?? In other words, as the filter plugs I should see a decrease in oil return?? And at 80 psi (the max I have seen on my guage), it should plug and not flow oil if it would become that dirty?



I was just going to watch the flow return and continue changing the oil and fullflow filter as normal (10k intervals) without changing the bypass every 10k. Just wanted to make sure I was OK doing that...



steved

This is a drawing of the type of by-pass you are using. If you think about plugging either of the lines, or the filter element, you will see the "Full-Flow" filter will not be effected.



And yes, I think you should be just fine in changing both elements at 10K intervals. I don't change mine then, I just sample, and will only change when the lab says I should.



Wayne

 

[steved]

Wayne:



You are correct about that type setup... that is what I have...



So the EaBP filter will plug off in this scenario and restrict THE BYPASS FILTER'S flow, and does not have an internal "bypass" that would allow non-filtered oil to pass the EaBPs filter media?? (in "bypass", I mean like that of a typical oil filter that prevents starving the engine of oil if the filter plugs).



I am only talking about the Amsoil EaBP Bypass filter... the fullflow filter I know is not affected if the bypass element plugs...



And running the EaBP, based on soley watching the return flow rate, past 10k would be OK?? I was looking into running the EaBP say 30k and only changing oil/fullflow filter every 10k...



I think I'm trying to ask a question one way and you are answering it another... we will get this sorted out!



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Steve, the Moly and Boron you noticed and asked about are anti wear elements Chevron recently added to their additive package - Moly is highly rated for it friction reducing capabilities and wear prevention as well - Boron is a similar element.



It was especially because of this addition to the DELO oils that I have stuck with it as I have - it was a good oil before - but far better now. I was especially interested in seeing it's effectiveness in this specific analysis, since this is the second full 5000 mile run using this "new" DELO - and the results pretty well speak for themselves.



The engine in my '91 truck reached a best iron count of 8 ppm with the same bypass setup I now have on this '02 - and also running the old DELO. This engine is already down to 10 ppm - and still probably has more reduction ahead as break-in continues on up past 50K miles.

 

[amsoilman]

Steved,

This is from Amsoil Inc.



Normal Service Life b:When used in conjunction with AMSOIL motor oil and an EaO or Donaldson Endurance filter, the EaBP should be changed every other full flow filter change up to 60,000 miles. When used with other brands of motor oil or full flow filters, the EaBP filter should be changed every other full flow filter change. AMSOIL recommends using oil analysis when extending oil drain intervals.



Wayne