Latest Oil Anlaysis report on my truck

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Shifting gears a bit, I have a question for Wayne (or anyone else):



I did a sample on my '96 and the results came back "so-so" in that I had about 6000 miles on Rotella synthetic and the iron count came back as 38 but what was troubling was the chromium came back as 11. Oil Analyzers didn't flag that but I'd think 11ppm chromium would be a concern. I think I know why it's high though, I'm pretty sure I have a broken ring. This is on a tiring 400,000 mile truck.

 

[amsoilman]

Shifting gears a bit, I have a question for Wayne (or anyone else):



I did a sample on my '96 and the results came back "so-so" in that I had about 6000 miles on Rotella synthetic and the iron count came back as 38 but what was troubling was the chromium came back as 11. Oil Analyzers didn't flag that but I'd think 11ppm chromium would be a concern. I think I know why it's high though, I'm pretty sure I have a broken ring. This is on a tiring 400,000 mile truck.

These are the limits for the Cummins 5. 9L You will have to put the figures in the correct colums, but the Chromium (Cr) is from <5 ppm to a high of >15 ppm. These numbers are for a "Normal Oil Drain interval"!



Doesn't look like you havev abig problem, considering you have so many miles on your engine.



CUMMINS

(4BT, 3. 9L, 6BT, 5. 9L, N14, M11, 400, 444)



Normal

Abnormal

Critical

Fe Iron <75 75-150 >150

Pb Lead <30 30-60 >60

Cu Copper <30 30-60 >60

Cr Chromium <5 5-15 >15

Al Aluminum <10 10-25 >25

Ni Nickel <5 5-15 >15

Ag Silver — — —

Sn Tin — — —

Na Sodium <40 40-80 >80

Si Silicon <20 20-30 >30

Fuel Dilution % <2 2-6 6

Soot % <3 3-7



Wayne

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've pointed this out before, but since we're again making oil analysis comparisons, it's worth repeating.



ALL *new* oils, including the synthetics I have seen, WILL contain various levels of contaminants - and to most accurately gauge the analysis numbers of USED oil, you might want to know and factor in/subtract what the new stuff normally contains right from the container!



For instance, in the DELO 400 I personally use:



I also want to again post the typical analysis of *NEW*, unused Delo to use as a baseline for analysis of used oil at various mileages - please be aware that during my test run posted here earlier, Chevron modified it's Delo formulation to include Molybdenum and Boron - excellent anti-wear additives. The analysis shown below was done on DELO 400 prior to addition of Moly and Boron.



From Blackstone Labs, 5/10/04

New, unused Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4



Al-1

Iron-2

Lead-1

Silicon-5

Sodium-1

Calcium-3476

Magnesium-6

Phos-1190

Zinc-1329



NOW, if you subtract the 2 ppm Iron shown in NEW oil from the 10 ppm in my earlier analysis posted above, the ADDED Iron particles would seem to only be *8* ppm - and in the case of Silicon numbers, the NEW oil checks out at 5 ppm, and mine was at 3 ppm - a REDUCTION of 2 ppm below the NEW stuff!



(Silicon is not always dirt - it's also used in chemical form in new oils as an anti-foaming agent)

 

[Texas Diesel]

How do you get the bypass filter setup to return the filtered oil to the engine? T into the turbo return oil line?

 

[steved]

How do you get the bypass filter setup to return the filtered oil to the engine? T into the turbo return oil line?

Most of us use a swivel fitting and return the oil through the filler cap into the valve cover...



steved

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Wayne thanks for the numbers, looks like I'm good.



For comparison I sent a sample in for my '98 12v running my first change of Amsoil 15w40 (put in at 140,000). I ran it 10,000 miles, 1 filter change & 1. 5qt makeup (no bypass) and got:



11- Iron

1 -Chromium

0 -Lead

24 -Copper

0 -Tin

5 -Aluminum

12 -Silicon (is that up a bit?)



Vaughn

 

[steved]

I've pointed this out before, but since we're again making oil analysis comparisons, it's worth repeating.



ALL *new* oils, including the synthetics I have seen, WILL contain various levels of contaminants - and to most accurately gauge the analysis numbers of USED oil, you might want to know and factor in/subtract what the new stuff normally contains right from the container!



For instance, in the DELO 400 I personally use:



I also want to again post the typical analysis of *NEW*, unused Delo to use as a baseline for analysis of used oil at various mileages - please be aware that during my test run posted here earlier, Chevron modified it's Delo formulation to include Molybdenum and Boron - excellent anti-wear additives. The analysis shown below was done on DELO 400 prior to addition of Moly and Boron.



From Blackstone Labs, 5/10/04

New, unused Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4



Al-1

Iron-2

Lead-1

Silicon-5

Sodium-1

Calcium-3476

Magnesium-6

Phos-1190

Zinc-1329



NOW, if you subtract the 2 ppm Iron shown in NEW oil from the 10 ppm in my earlier analysis posted above, the ADDED Iron particles would seem to only be *8* ppm - and in the case of Silicon numbers, the NEW oil checks out at 5 ppm, and mine was at 3 ppm - a REDUCTION of 2 ppm below the NEW stuff!



(Silicon is not always dirt - it's also used in chemical form in new oils as an anti-foaming agent)

Another thing to remember (coming from someone who uses analytical labs on occassion)... instruments will not read {zero} (ideally), they have a minimum detection level... they can only read so small a number.



Also, you want to try to find a single lab and stick with them... changing labs (for pricing or whatever) will cause your numbers to jump around... each machine is different and each person calibrates said machine differently...



To me, this also explains why you have some "float" in your numbers... not that it is a big deal... but one can assume that as long as they are fairly consistant, things are good. Seeing a slight "bump" in the overall line is not a big deal... you are looking at the trend and not the one time result.



And there again, I use labs capable of detecting some things to the parts per TRILLION... just the operator can determine whether you actually get a detection or not. I am not sure that a lab on the corner doing oil analysis is anywhere near as "QA'd/QC'd to death... especially when some samples I run for metals are in the hundreds of dollars for a single sample. Makes me wonder...



steved

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne thanks for the numbers, looks like I'm good.



For comparison I sent a sample in for my '98 12v running my first change of Amsoil 15w40 (put in at 140,000). I ran it 10,000 miles, 1 filter change & 1. 5qt makeup (no bypass) and got:



11- Iron

1 -Chromium

0 -Lead

24 -Copper

0 -Tin

5 -Aluminum

12 -Silicon (is that up a bit?)



Vaughn

Vaughn,

I don't feel your "Silicon" level is that far out of bounds, as shown above, the "Normal" would be <20. 20-30 would be "Abnormal" and above 30 would be a big concern. You also don't have a by-pass filter, so your not going to get the finer filtration that you might get if you did have a by-pass.



10,000 on a regular filter with these kinds of analysis readings are very good in my mind.



Wayne

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Yep it's a stock 12-valve, low-output automatic. . . not exactly a highly-stressed engine

 

[JWaters]

If it was that good why dont the dealers use it in the corvette's? and viper's? Why do they use mobile 1? It sounds like the old slick 50 oil product snake oil misleading the people by only telling them one thing and not the truth.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

These Cummins engines are amazing - the wear numbers on my '91 were still dropping at well over 100K miles - that's why I figure this engine at it's current mileage under 50K miles has a ways to go before it's fully broke in. :-laf





Vaughn, your numbers look great for a no-bypass setup, other than the Copper and Silicon - and as Wayne said, thats not even high enough to be concerned about - looks like you have a good engine, AND oil!

 

[Texas Diesel]

If it was that good why dont the dealers use it in the corvette's? and viper's? Why do they use mobile 1? It sounds like the old slick 50 oil product snake oil misleading the people by only telling them one thing and not the truth.

Careful, unless you are ready for a fight :-{}



The people that use it are very enthusiastic...

 

[steved]

I will post this up since I found this out from Amsoil technical directly... it only took me about ten tries to finally get the answer I needed... while Amsoil tech might know oil, they sure don't know filters.



The EaBP does not have an internal bypass valve like a fullflow filter... it will not pass unfiltered oil if the filter media becomes plugged...



The EaBP filter media will also withstand "80 psi" (which is the number I threw at them) after becoming completely plugged without becoming compromised.



So in short, the filter will plug off and restrict flow... so to answer my earlier question, I can simply watch the flow at the return and if it becomes reduced or stops, I know it is time to change and not to wait to a set mileage...





steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Steve, I'm sure you are aware, but will mention, that the "feel for heat" at the canister - or just checking for flow, are OK for assurance SOME oil flow is going thru the bypass, but not that it is seeing enough flow to be operating efficiently.



Hopefully, users will have already swapped out the filter as part of a recommended maintenance schedule LONG before there's any danger of total, or near-total clogging!

 

[amsoilman]

If it was that good why dont the dealers use it in the corvette's? and viper's? Why do they use mobile 1? It sounds like the old slick 50 oil product snake oil misleading the people by only telling them one thing and not the truth.

Lets try and keep this thread on topic... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... Oil Anlysis/by-pass filtration.



To answer your above question, I will PM you with the answer.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Rman]

How do you get the bypass filter setup to return the filtered oil to the engine? T into the turbo return oil line?

I went over to Wayne's house a few years ago and we discussed this at length. He showed me the way he separated the stock oil cap and used JB weld to attach a swivel fitting. I think since then newer caps have been designed that do not require this.



He also mentioned a method which required drilling the valve cover. I chose this and have had excellent results. I tapped a 1/8 NPT fitting in the cover to return the oil to the valve train. I was concerned at first of over filling the head with oil and perhaps causing a leak, but after 50k miles I have noticed nothing.



Wayne's a stand up guy and was very helpful. I didn't buy anything from him yet he still offered much appreciated advice. I think some of you need to get off his case, if you don't like what he does then just ignore the post. Both Gary and Wayne both have made great strides to offer information for THOSE INTERESTED in oil analysis, they aren't pushing anything at anyone, just offering collected information and results.

 

[steved]

Steve, I'm sure you are aware, but will mention, that the "feel for heat" at the canister - or just checking for flow, are OK for assurance SOME oil flow is going thru the bypass, but not that it is seeing enough flow to be operating efficiently.



Hopefully, users will have already swapped out the filter as part of a recommended maintenance schedule LONG before there's any danger of total, or near-total clogging!

I hear you Gary...



I was just concerned about running multiple oil changes on a single bypass filter (at $35/filter, they cost a touch more than TP... :-laf )...



Being I had never heard/read anything other than the efficiency of the Amsoil filter, I wanted to make sure that it would not somehow allow unfiltered oil to pass, thereby making it appear as though oil was being filtered, yet it wasn't.



Amsoil is very good at promoting the selling points, but they seem to drop the ball if someone asks an unusual technical question (like break-through pressure limits) they tend to get confused and simply tell you what the literature states... umm, yeah I can read, your not really answering the question! But I do give them credit, they at least try.



Mainly, I wanted something (other than installing a bunch of guages) to sort of watch that filter for signs of plugging. And besides, I sorta screwed up my installation anyway. They state roughly a quart a minute... which is what I have, at idle. They rate their quart a minute at 1500 RPM... which is 60 psi in my case. So I'm probably flowing more like a gallon a minute while driving... but it doesn't seem to be affect it's operation, but there again; I'm not the engineer that designed it, just the dummy that installed it!!



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wayne's a stand up guy and was very helpful. I didn't buy anything from him yet he still offered much appreciated advice. I think some of you need to get off his case, if you don't like what he does then just ignore the post. Both Gary and Wayne both have made great strides to offer information for THOSE INTERESTED in oil analysis, they aren't pushing anything at anyone, just offering collected information and results.

Thank you for that - I certainly appreciate it, and I have no doubt Wayne does as well - it DOES get tiresome to fend off senseless foolishness at the personal level when all that's intended is helpful info, some of which involves significant effort and $$$ to provide for the benefit of others in this group.



I, for one, certainly wouldn't be doing NEARLY as much expensive extra detailed oil analysis as I do, if it wasn't in an effort to provide a better view of lubrication alternatives - what works and what doesn't - to those who are as interested in the subject as I am.



And as mentioned, this isn't about "sales promotion", it's about better maintenance and extending the reliable lifespan of these great trucks! There are differing views on the better ways to provide improved lubrication, as seen in this thread and other similar ones - if owners are more interested in sifting thru the detailed info provided and choosing what solutions they feel will work best for them, rather than focusing upon personalities and egos, something of value might be the result - as was (and will CONTINUE to be!) the goal from the start!



Regards~



Gary

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I got the printout on my particle count in today's mail. As I had mentioned, it's great, just not AS great as the previous one was, for whatever reason. Some readers might wonder what the value and purpose is for a particle count in addition to a plain analysis geared more to wear numbers.



Well, for basic lube systems using only the OEM full-flow oil filter, a particle count MIGHT be sort of a waste of time - but when BYPASS oil filters are involved, the picture changes considerably!



Most bypass filter makers all (naturally!) make grand claims as to the effectiveness and wear-reducing capabilities of their systems - and plain oil analysis WILL prove there ARE significant benefits to be obtained from use of ANY decent bypass filter brand.



But what separates the truly EXCELLENT ones from the ordinary, over and above basic oil analysis, is a particle count! That procedure quickly separates the men from the boys where SERIOUS oil filtration is involved, and the elimination/reduction of various wear metals and contaminants from the oil supply that can impact the lifespan of the engine.



It separates FACT from BS!



Here's my last 2 particle counts, both at about 5000 miles on DELO 400 15/40:



#ad


The EARLIER count on previous analysis... ... ... ... ... ... ..... This last one





The numbers seen above, for those unfamiliar with such counts, are about 5-10 times LOWER than similar used oil tests on engines WITHOUT bypass filters installed...

 

[Texas Diesel]

164,500 miles total

6,100 miles on Delo and OEM filter.

1. 5 years (35,000 miles) on BHAF

Al 3 [all in Parts Per Million, PPM]

CH 1

Iron 13 ( the iron count has dropped every oil changed since the K&N went in the trash, where it belongs)

Cop 1

Lead 1

Tin 0

Moly 90 (??? why)

Silicion (dirt) 3

Soot 0. 4%



With this oil and wear numbers I only have about 850,000 miles left in the engine :-laf



BTW, they said that I should try running my Delo and OEM filter longer then 6,100 miles on this sample



Guess this is the recipe for another million mile RAM.



No bypass filter and related plumbing to leak.



But I guess I'm doing it all wrong.