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2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission leaf springs
- Thread starter 6btsmoker
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I have K30 crewcab 4x4 1-ton. I put Skyjacker Softride leaf springs on all 4 corners and added air suspension bags on the rear for when I'm heavily loaded. Rancho RS9000 shocks at all 4 corners, too. I did that many years ago before buying my Dodge and it is a terrific combination. Very simple and fully adjustable. NEVER a ball joint, wheel bearing, steering wandering, trackbar, central-axle-disconnect, etc etc problem like the dodge coil spring suspension is plagued with.
My '96 Dodge 2500 x-cab could never in it's wildest dreams steer or ride as nice as that Chevy, much less be as easy to maintain or strong. If it were a reasonable conversion, I'd junk the Dodge front axle and suspension in a heartbeat for the same tried and true system my chevy has (and dodge used to). DC engineers just got way too fancy for their own good and it didn't improve a thing. Quite the opposite imo. BUT, at least they kept the solid front axle. Independent front suspension 4x4's (like newer chevys) are even worse. Owned one; won't ever own another.
My '96 Dodge 2500 x-cab could never in it's wildest dreams steer or ride as nice as that Chevy, much less be as easy to maintain or strong. If it were a reasonable conversion, I'd junk the Dodge front axle and suspension in a heartbeat for the same tried and true system my chevy has (and dodge used to). DC engineers just got way too fancy for their own good and it didn't improve a thing. Quite the opposite imo. BUT, at least they kept the solid front axle. Independent front suspension 4x4's (like newer chevys) are even worse. Owned one; won't ever own another.
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I don't think anyone here has ever done it, bakerjohn. If so, we surely would have heard about it.
There is plenty of material about spending thousands to correct all the problems the coil suspension causes with it's complex and weak components, but no "ultimate cure" like leaf springs and a real kingpin/lockout hub/tapered wheel bearing Dana 60. It would have to be from a Ford given the driver side drop, of course.
I think the 1st generation Cummins Dodges came the closest to the high mark of toughness and simplicity. Leaf springs. Kingpins. Lockouts. NP205. Easy to lift. Low maintenence. They rank right there with the '74 and up generation Chevys and are their twins in most respects, even to the point of interchangability on parts like axles. I love small and big block earlier Chevys, but the Cummins is a superior truck motor, period. Replace the Getrag with an NV4500 or NV5600 and you'd have a heckuva truck! Maybe even swap a 2nd gen 12-valve with it's improvements into it...
I like the styling and interior comfort of the 2nd gens a little better, but the 1st gens are good looking, too, and I'd trade looks for toughness and use the savings to buy a new leather recliner for comfort. They are commanding pretty high prices right now for these very reasons. Followed by the manual transmission 12-valve 2nd gens. That tells you that people who know these trucks want the older, simpler, tougher stuff. Not computers and coil springs and emmissions crap. Not to mention payments that rival their mortgages. Detroit just doesn't listen, though. That's why they're all going broke, too. I won't buy their computerized, made-mostly-in-mexico junk anymore, and I'm not alone.
I know there have been plenty of independent front torsion suspension Chevys converted back to the much better leaf spring/solid axle setup, and kits are available, but no Dodges I have ever seen.
Maybe a complete body swap onto a leaf spring chassis? A huge job... Let me know if you ever figure it out.
There is plenty of material about spending thousands to correct all the problems the coil suspension causes with it's complex and weak components, but no "ultimate cure" like leaf springs and a real kingpin/lockout hub/tapered wheel bearing Dana 60. It would have to be from a Ford given the driver side drop, of course.
I think the 1st generation Cummins Dodges came the closest to the high mark of toughness and simplicity. Leaf springs. Kingpins. Lockouts. NP205. Easy to lift. Low maintenence. They rank right there with the '74 and up generation Chevys and are their twins in most respects, even to the point of interchangability on parts like axles. I love small and big block earlier Chevys, but the Cummins is a superior truck motor, period. Replace the Getrag with an NV4500 or NV5600 and you'd have a heckuva truck! Maybe even swap a 2nd gen 12-valve with it's improvements into it...
I like the styling and interior comfort of the 2nd gens a little better, but the 1st gens are good looking, too, and I'd trade looks for toughness and use the savings to buy a new leather recliner for comfort. They are commanding pretty high prices right now for these very reasons. Followed by the manual transmission 12-valve 2nd gens. That tells you that people who know these trucks want the older, simpler, tougher stuff. Not computers and coil springs and emmissions crap. Not to mention payments that rival their mortgages. Detroit just doesn't listen, though. That's why they're all going broke, too. I won't buy their computerized, made-mostly-in-mexico junk anymore, and I'm not alone.
I know there have been plenty of independent front torsion suspension Chevys converted back to the much better leaf spring/solid axle setup, and kits are available, but no Dodges I have ever seen.
Maybe a complete body swap onto a leaf spring chassis? A huge job... Let me know if you ever figure it out.
seems like it would be pretty easy all things considered if you have some decent fabricating skills just make some front spring hangers and rear pivot points for the shackles like Chevy. i feel your pain my cad vacuum diaghpram puked the other day 250 bucks from dodge just flat stupid a little sheet metal and a gasket
I think the problem is that, with enough money, parts, and repeated replacement, the Dodge's biggest problems can be sort of ironed out eventually and made tolerable. So it is just easier to accept the compromises.
Chevy guys were more highly motivated to produce a retro-conversion since the accompanying front differentials with the torsion suspension were utterly weak and worthless and had nothing available in the way of lockers or limited slips or suspension travel. Really bad news for serious offroaders.
The Dodge still had a pseudo-Dana 60 (pumpkin only really) solid axle. It is a far cry from the nearly bulletproof axle that made the Dana 60 famous, and Dana Spicer should be ashamed of themselves for agreeing to cheapen and weaken it, but it still beats what Chevy did.
I agree, a well-motivated and talented fabricator with plenty of spare time should be up to the task of leaf-springing a 2nd generation Dodge. I think for most of us, the time is hardest to come by. I would love to get ahold of a cheap junkyard chassis to play with, but it would just be added to my "project list" and "treasure pile" I'm afraid... Which leads to the question:
If I could clone me, would I get twice as much done or would I just double the number of unfinished projects I accumulated. . :{?
(me being "encouraged" to pursue my interests by my wife>:-{} )
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all here!
Chevy guys were more highly motivated to produce a retro-conversion since the accompanying front differentials with the torsion suspension were utterly weak and worthless and had nothing available in the way of lockers or limited slips or suspension travel. Really bad news for serious offroaders.
The Dodge still had a pseudo-Dana 60 (pumpkin only really) solid axle. It is a far cry from the nearly bulletproof axle that made the Dana 60 famous, and Dana Spicer should be ashamed of themselves for agreeing to cheapen and weaken it, but it still beats what Chevy did.
I agree, a well-motivated and talented fabricator with plenty of spare time should be up to the task of leaf-springing a 2nd generation Dodge. I think for most of us, the time is hardest to come by. I would love to get ahold of a cheap junkyard chassis to play with, but it would just be added to my "project list" and "treasure pile" I'm afraid... Which leads to the question:
If I could clone me, would I get twice as much done or would I just double the number of unfinished projects I accumulated. . :{? (me being "encouraged" to pursue my interests by my wife>:-{} )
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all here!
Which leads to the question:
:-laf:-laf:-laf That is priceless! Man, I can identify with that!
Why not look into a suspension upgrade from Carli or Kore? They're well represented on this site - plenty of info and arguments. I just think you'd be a lot better off sticking with the factory design but upgrading the components
That is the best comment on this thread .
I have had Leaf sprung GM trucks and spent a bunch of money dialing them in. The coil springs that were OEM are vastley superior to the Gm leaf system. I challenge any one to build a 7-8klb truck with front leaves that will match the performance of my coil sprung Dodge Oo.
I should also add the steering gear boxes did not hold up very well on the GMs either.
Bob
thanks for all the input. i have put heavy coils in the front,and after two years they have let the front down agin. i have replaced every part in the front end at least once,and the trac bar is loose agin. my center vac lock is rusted,big surprise. and the list goes on. i really like my truck,but would like the simple leaf spring and locking hub front end of other trucks i have owned. as for the turning radius,its an extended cab eight foot bed. it don't turn on a dime as it is. :-laf i will probably end up with some lift kit,an aftermarket trac bar,an the dyna-track locking hub kit. some of the things the oems do really make a person wonder. thanks,jb
The OEMs build vehicles for the masses,it is up to us the enthusiest to customize for our own taste. Personally I am very happy to forgo climbing out of the truck to lock hubs,I enjoy the leather interior and all the other niceties we have these days in our trucks but I have spent a bit of change to make it what I want it to be
#ad
is it a Baja chase truck or the take the grandkids for a wk end trip truck? I have it all with this coil sprung truck.
Bob
#adis it a Baja chase truck or the take the grandkids for a wk end trip truck? I have it all with this coil sprung truck.
Bob
I think all you have to do is take a ride in a Furd super duty 4X4. I have riden in 2 top the line supers and think their leaf spring ride is terrible, there is no such thing as gliding over a bump, it's more thud & buck... ... ... ..... heck my lifted CJ7 feels smoother than either of them.
. i don't mind leather interiors. i just want to have a truck,thats a truck. my wife likes the electric shift transfer case on her dodge nitro. it will work good for a while,untill the connections and motor corrode. i would like to save some fuel with manual locking hubs,and have real wheel bearings. some peolpe use these trucks for cars,and like the soft ride of the coils. i use the truck as a truck and find the front suspension weak for a heavy diesel truck.
"I challenge any one to build a 7-8klb truck with front leaves that will match the performance of my coil sprung Dodge. "
Done deal. I'll put my old Chevy with the simple aftermarket Softride suspension I described up on that challenge any day. I agree that factory front leaf springs are negatively arched and suck, though. Not enough travel to soak up bumps. The 1-ton chevys like mine also came with longer rear leaf springs than a 1/2 or 3/4 ton. That helps, too. My longer wheel base is also an advantage over your Dodge. It's a 4-door crew cab with 8' bed which is inherently smoother riding.
"Don't front leaf springs make your turning radius roughly equal to that of a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier?"
I don't know where that reasoning comes from. Do you believe the tire hits the leaf spring if you turn tight or that a coil spring Dana 60 has a tighter turn than a leaf spring Dana 60? Simply not true. Now if you said "longer wheel base" instead of "leaf springs", you'd have a slightly better argument. But that affects both coil and leafspring trucks the same way.
"Maybe your coil springs need to be replaced or re-arced. "
My Dodge coils don't need re-arched. They do not even have the leveling kit spacers so many guys install and they hold my front end up perfectly level when empty and do not rub my oversize tires or flares even with the weight of a Boss V plow hanging out over the front. They are stock and stiff and ride stiff, though not as stiff as the rear.
Every now and then, and more frequently now that diesel is 75 cents per gallon more than gas, I get in my big Softride leafspring Chevy and marvel at how much better it rides and steers. The difference is very significant, but I don't notice until I drive the Chevy right after driving the Dodge since I spend 12 to 14 hours per day driving a semi and even the Dodge feels like silk in comparison to that.
I've always believed if I had the Cummins and NV5600 in that Chevy, I would throw rocks at my Dodge with the 35" BFG Mud Terrains that fit beautifully in those huge wheelwells with only 2 1/2 inches of lift. The taller 1-ton frame is like a body lift over the 1/2 and 3/4 ton Chevys. (Did I mention how easy and inexpensive it is to lift a leaf spring truck compared a coil spring truck?)
"I should also add the steering gear boxes did not hold up very well on the GMs either"
The only "steering box problem" my Chevy ever had was a leaky seal after 170K miles. Cost me $5 for a seal kit. And it is, I believe, the same saginaw box my Dodge uses. You may be thinking of the propensity of Chevy frames to crack behind the steering box. That is true on some 1/2 and 3/4 ton frames, but I've never had a crack in a 1-ton frame. Even if it did, a $20 reinforcement plate is pretty easy to weld on and cure that.
"I don't agree with the weak coil springs part. "
Neither do I. Coils can be as stiff as any leaf spring. My coils are stiffer. It is all the other moving parts that are necessary for coils to function that make the Dodge Dana 60 and it's steering components so weak. Name ONE single thing that is stronger in the Dodge frontend than in a K30. Or more reliable.
Ball joints vs. kingpins? CAD vs. lockouts? Trackbar vs. no track bar at all? Twice the number of moving joints on the tierods? Unitized, unserviceable wheel bearings and hubs vs. tapered roller bearings? 30 spline inner axles (in 4pieces counting the weak sleeve) vs. two 35 spline solid shafts? Control arms vs. no need for them?
Simple is simply better. Even when Dodge did have a true dana 60 under the front of the 1st gens, it was considered somewhat weaker than the Chevy's, which had stouter axle shafts and better hubs.
"I enjoy the leather interior and all the other niceties we have these days in our trucks"
So do I, to a certain point. I want my truck to feel like a truck, not a car, though and DC has great difficulty with wiring the basics (like headlights), much less all the other electrical toys. I bought that old Chevy from a Texas rancher. A one-way plane ticket for zero-rust is cheaper than any rust repair. I was stunned when I got there and found the interior to be all custom oak (dash, door panel trim, overhead console, etc. ) and 4 thick, soft, cowhide leather bucket seats and matching fold-down console/jump seats in the middle. Very nice! Much nicer than my Dodge. He never mentioned it on the phone or in his ad. I call it my "cowboy Cadillac".
"Why not look into a suspension upgrade from Carli or Kore?"
I rest my case about the need to constantly and repeatedly throw big money and parts at the Dodge front suspension.
"my lifted CJ7 feels smoother than either of them"
Thank you. A CJ7 has LEAF springs...
All in all, imo, nobody has made a convincing defense of the crappy Dodge front suspension and steering here. Just do a search on "death wobble" to refresh your memories on how bad it is...
Only one old chevy I ever had ever did that. That turned out to be the egg-shaped wheel I had just installed unknowingly.
Done deal. I'll put my old Chevy with the simple aftermarket Softride suspension I described up on that challenge any day. I agree that factory front leaf springs are negatively arched and suck, though. Not enough travel to soak up bumps. The 1-ton chevys like mine also came with longer rear leaf springs than a 1/2 or 3/4 ton. That helps, too. My longer wheel base is also an advantage over your Dodge. It's a 4-door crew cab with 8' bed which is inherently smoother riding.
"Don't front leaf springs make your turning radius roughly equal to that of a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier?"
I don't know where that reasoning comes from. Do you believe the tire hits the leaf spring if you turn tight or that a coil spring Dana 60 has a tighter turn than a leaf spring Dana 60? Simply not true. Now if you said "longer wheel base" instead of "leaf springs", you'd have a slightly better argument. But that affects both coil and leafspring trucks the same way.
"Maybe your coil springs need to be replaced or re-arced. "
My Dodge coils don't need re-arched. They do not even have the leveling kit spacers so many guys install and they hold my front end up perfectly level when empty and do not rub my oversize tires or flares even with the weight of a Boss V plow hanging out over the front. They are stock and stiff and ride stiff, though not as stiff as the rear.
Every now and then, and more frequently now that diesel is 75 cents per gallon more than gas, I get in my big Softride leafspring Chevy and marvel at how much better it rides and steers. The difference is very significant, but I don't notice until I drive the Chevy right after driving the Dodge since I spend 12 to 14 hours per day driving a semi and even the Dodge feels like silk in comparison to that.
I've always believed if I had the Cummins and NV5600 in that Chevy, I would throw rocks at my Dodge with the 35" BFG Mud Terrains that fit beautifully in those huge wheelwells with only 2 1/2 inches of lift. The taller 1-ton frame is like a body lift over the 1/2 and 3/4 ton Chevys. (Did I mention how easy and inexpensive it is to lift a leaf spring truck compared a coil spring truck?)
"I should also add the steering gear boxes did not hold up very well on the GMs either"
The only "steering box problem" my Chevy ever had was a leaky seal after 170K miles. Cost me $5 for a seal kit. And it is, I believe, the same saginaw box my Dodge uses. You may be thinking of the propensity of Chevy frames to crack behind the steering box. That is true on some 1/2 and 3/4 ton frames, but I've never had a crack in a 1-ton frame. Even if it did, a $20 reinforcement plate is pretty easy to weld on and cure that.
"I don't agree with the weak coil springs part. "
Neither do I. Coils can be as stiff as any leaf spring. My coils are stiffer. It is all the other moving parts that are necessary for coils to function that make the Dodge Dana 60 and it's steering components so weak. Name ONE single thing that is stronger in the Dodge frontend than in a K30. Or more reliable.
Ball joints vs. kingpins? CAD vs. lockouts? Trackbar vs. no track bar at all? Twice the number of moving joints on the tierods? Unitized, unserviceable wheel bearings and hubs vs. tapered roller bearings? 30 spline inner axles (in 4pieces counting the weak sleeve) vs. two 35 spline solid shafts? Control arms vs. no need for them?
Simple is simply better. Even when Dodge did have a true dana 60 under the front of the 1st gens, it was considered somewhat weaker than the Chevy's, which had stouter axle shafts and better hubs.
"I enjoy the leather interior and all the other niceties we have these days in our trucks"
So do I, to a certain point. I want my truck to feel like a truck, not a car, though and DC has great difficulty with wiring the basics (like headlights), much less all the other electrical toys. I bought that old Chevy from a Texas rancher. A one-way plane ticket for zero-rust is cheaper than any rust repair. I was stunned when I got there and found the interior to be all custom oak (dash, door panel trim, overhead console, etc. ) and 4 thick, soft, cowhide leather bucket seats and matching fold-down console/jump seats in the middle. Very nice! Much nicer than my Dodge. He never mentioned it on the phone or in his ad. I call it my "cowboy Cadillac".
"Why not look into a suspension upgrade from Carli or Kore?"
I rest my case about the need to constantly and repeatedly throw big money and parts at the Dodge front suspension.
"my lifted CJ7 feels smoother than either of them"
Thank you. A CJ7 has LEAF springs...
All in all, imo, nobody has made a convincing defense of the crappy Dodge front suspension and steering here. Just do a search on "death wobble" to refresh your memories on how bad it is...
Only one old chevy I ever had ever did that. That turned out to be the egg-shaped wheel I had just installed unknowingly.
Wow... ... ... you like to type :-laf Bring your k30 out on one of our club trips... ... ..... I will school you on the coil advantage
I never had any cracked frame but I did repair some for friends. 3 steering chucks over the time I owned the truck. I was in a Blazer club so I saw a lot of action in mine. fun showing the short wheelbase guys what a long bed could do. Art Carr transmissions did not hold up any longer than our Dodge trans either. I thought that Chevy was the sh@@ till I got my new ram in 94,then I realized how much money I was throwing at it to keep it driveable.
Bob
I never had any cracked frame but I did repair some for friends. 3 steering chucks over the time I owned the truck. I was in a Blazer club so I saw a lot of action in mine. fun showing the short wheelbase guys what a long bed could do. Art Carr transmissions did not hold up any longer than our Dodge trans either. I thought that Chevy was the sh@@ till I got my new ram in 94,then I realized how much money I was throwing at it to keep it driveable.
Bob
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
I guess I was speaking more out of ignorance than anything else. I reasoned that maximum turning angle would be influenced by the position of the leaf pack relative to the wheels. If the pack is too close, the steering angle would need to be restricted to avoid hitting them.
I suppose if the leaf pack were located at the same location as the control arms on a coil setup, there would be no change in turning radius.
But how do you balance the position of the leaf pack with roll stability?
Ryan
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
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Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
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