Life Expectancy of a First Gen Cummins

[RWWinslow]

Renewed acquaintances with a former Cummins shop manager who has installed hundreds of B series Cummins engines in commercial units and as backfits in Chevys and Fords during the late 1980's and early 1990's. He offered the following information on the Cummins B series engine that we have in our 1st. genners:

* Million mile engine. Hundreds have been run past the million mile mark. Expect this longevity and plan accordingly.

* VE Injector Pump. Expect to change the pump at the 450,000 to 550,000 mile point.

* Injector Life. Varies from 250,000 miles to million miles.

* Water Pumps. Expect 1 million miles provided the coolant is not allowed to go acidic (i. e. maintained properly)

* Pyrometer. This engine is easy to overfuel - install a pyrometer downstream of the turbocharger and set the red line at 850F. His shop saw too many 'dinged' turbos due to pyrometers installed upstream of the turbo.

* Use a premium quality diesel engine oil and a spun glass type of filter media. Do not use engine oil additives.

* Use the block heater.

* Pre-lube with the starter if the truck has sat more than 3 days.



The B series engine has been tested to 575 HP in a fully instrumented lab setting using the inline pump. As originally installed in our trucks, this is a very tough and reliable engine.

 

[JKurley]

I'm looking forward to the big million- I drive 70k per year, so ten more years and i'll have bragging rights. If only the gutbag and dana would last so long...

 

[sparks57]

Uh, I don't think so... engine: yes, pump: no!!!!



The VE pump only lives an average life of 175k miles.



Otherwise, the rest of the info is OK... the water pump... maybe...

 

[dpuckett]

I beg to differ on a few points-

1. The injectors are doing real well to not need reset at an average of 200K. There is no way I'd go a million without at least checking them.

2. T-couple placement. Even set at 850 redline, with a 450 deg difference (or more), you still hit 1300. Not bad for short time, but detrimental if sustained, or so I've been told. If you have stuff dinging up the turbo, I'd bet it isnt the t-couple. If it is, you have stuff coming out of your cylinders, and have bigger fish to fry than just a turbo. Put the t-couple in the manifold, and let 1250-1300 be your true redline, and take right foot corrections as needed. Plus, how far downstream? It cools of fast, the farther you go.

3. VE life- varies more than injectors. Some have gone a million; others cant make it to 6 digit mileage. Not sure why, but that is the way of things. THe only way I'd trust the fuel system beyond 300K without a thorough check out is if I had it its entire life, and ran 90% hwy miles loaded. Cleaner burn than idling, light load.



I wasnt trying to flame you; I've just talked to too many "techs" that didnt know as much as an average TDR memeber, plus some of them inflate numbers. Surprised he didnt tell you about ATF being a good injector cleaner right after saying the t-couple will damage your turbo.



Daniel

 

[Forrest Nearing]

my old truck has almost 400k on the VE and still kickin'

 

[TMWeber]

How do you pre lube with the starter?

 

[Forrest Nearing]

on a tractor, you don't turn the fuel on and crank the starter a time or two... on our trucks, you don't worry about it

 

[Johnnordine]

Originally posted by TMWeber

How do you pre lube with the starter?

In the last issue of tdr there was a article that referenced this, on the first gen trucks you install a switch to keep the fuel solenoid on the pump from powering up, crank the engine a little and then turn on the switch to allow normal operation. This also could be used for a anti-theft device.

 

[JLEONARD]

Pre-lubing is a topic that comes up often in the marine forums also.

I pre-lube my boat Cummins during spring commissioning by disconnecting the power to the fuel solenoid. But that because the engine has been sitting for 6 months.

Cummins marine operator manual says to pre-lube if engine has not run for 7 days. But even at that, none of the marine distributors have seen an oil related engine failure. General consensus (whatever that's worth) says pre-lubing is over rated... nice in theory, but not practical or significant for most applications.

Jay

 

[RWWinslow]

Remember that the data I posted is the results of several hundred B series engines that went into service in the late 80's / early 90's time frame. This service data is also backed up by instrumented test cell data from that same time frame. However, the data for component life is just that - data. Actual experience will vary and you might be at either end of the bell curve. This information should help some of the members with making certain economic decisions on their vehicles - repair or replace the transmission / new brake systems vs. repair, etc. , etc.



This information does not state the certain minor repairs to the VE Pump will not be required; rather the end of life for the entire pump assembly is statistically around 450,000 to 550,000 miles - and note that there is a wide range of experience with injector life.



Most of these units spent > 50% of their time at highway speeds and in loaded conditions.



If you don't want to use this data, fine. If you want to add your two cents worth, (i. e. your personal experience), fine - this only adds more information to the pile.



However, this information was passed on to me by an individual who has probably forgot more about Cummins Diesels in his career than the rest of us will ever accumulate, disparaging the source is not appreciated - e-mail privately in the future if you would like to question the source, etc.



I was hoping that the group would welcome another piece of data and that it might prove helpful to the newer members.

 

[Greenleaf]

DP is alright... ..... he's just tired from rowing his boat. He made some good points, as did you.



The thermocouple in the manifold is the way to go.

It's done in several applications, not just ours.



Any engine, be it gas or diesel, will last much longer if it's operated at a load for extended periods of time. Our engines will generally not see one million due to varying loads/cold starts/extended idle time,modifications, etc.



You are correct, results will vary.



Scott

 

[JLEONARD]

RWWinslow

So you're talking more about "mean time to failure" for the compnents you mentioned.

That makes more sense...

AND I understand that in our application the duty cycle is much less than most applications... that is a huge factor in mean time to failure.

We tend to read with blinders on sometimes... focused in our own little world of light duty use, engine modifications, yada, yada, when in fact there is a ton of these Cummins Bs out there in other applications... . and in various configurations.

Jay

 

[JDMills]

I am glad to hear that pre-lubing MAY be overated... Pulled the KSB(isnt that the one that controls advance when the motor is cold?) lead off this spring. Thinking that it was the fuel shut off.

Immagine the suprised look on my face when it fired right up...



guess my memory needs the shop manual for a refresher.

Jason

 

[dpuckett]

Ok, so I was caught at the end of a long day. It was in no way meant as a flame to the Cummins tech who supplied the information, but more as a watch out for yourself for guys out to make a buck or two and nothing more.



Higher loads/ duty cycle changes things, as well as the definition of life expectancy. I TRY (but dont always succeed) to catch stuff before it pukes, and in doing so, taking something else with it. I. E. my pickup runs now, and as such, the pump doesnt need work in the minds of some (again, no flame intended). But, it smokes almost constantly (greyish), and MPGs have been on a downhill trend the last 6mo; I know it isnt up to par, hence it needs work. It made it 275K before needing that, and will probably get close to 300 before I get it done. I put the life at 275K. Some guys would run it till it quit, which could be 280K, or 750K.



-DP



PS- thanks, Greenleaf. I keep forgetting not everyone shares my sense of humor or outlook on life.

 

[Tim1]

I think that the ATF comment was uncalled for!!!! The information brought to this forum is for us to use or not. Thanks for the info R W!! Tim

 

[JApplegate]

1 thing..... cummin's on a boat suck... . my dad won't stop talking bout how many he went through them in the Cost Guard... . engen ran too fast and haited runing red line for a long time (8-10 hours at a time... ran out of fuel) i would never put a cummin's on a boat... in a truck YES don't get me wronge i love cummin's but they have their place. the detrots would run upside down (their 42 foot i think by his stories ran more time upside down then it did run right side up. . hehehe) also the cummin's were too picky for the coast guards wants... (didn't have time to mess with timing and the cummin's are every picky) my dad learned to time a cummin in 5 mins. ... . most professionals it takes them days (good thing he's on my side) sum it up... cummin's= land, detrots= water

 

[paccool]

jeez - this thread is starting to sound like some of the other forums.





Thanks for the info RWWinslow. Some interesting points in there. I would expect that a large variation of life would depend on how much things are "adjusted". ie: VE pump life. I'm sure a stock pump will outlive one that has been adjusted to the max! Same thing goes for how the engine is used - increase the max RPM above stock limits and that will also have an effect.



The search for "more power" will go on but something will probably suffer for it down the road.

 

[MRickard]

Yes thanks for the info RWWinslow it is nice to know. One thing about some claims about "tweaked" pumps and longevity - many injector pumps do the same thing, regardless of the tweak - ie - the plunger stroke is the same stroke, idle fuel or all out hotrodded fuel - it is how much is effective. Wear is the same. Although the VE pump is a little different setup than standard plungers. The only diff. is they are rotated so more fuel goes in. No more "wear" there. The VE pump is a tad dif. as it has one plunger that rotates and adjusts fuel by moving in a sleeve away/closer to a fuel cutoff port. And for minor tweaks, as long as you do not abuse the engine (IE - full throttle before peak torque like a floored launch, and EGT taken seriously, etc) I doubt the engine even knows its doing more work. That is not considering major enhancements in the 400+ hp range. But do expect ever other part on the drivetrain to deal with the extra torque (especially the auto trans).



And the oil deal - some think all the oil drains back into the pan and the parts do not have coverage, and you would have a dry start. I have taken apart engines that have been sitting for TEN years, and they are still covered in oil. The main point there is that there is no oil pressure, and some like the lifters to be pumped up. (mostly gas engines here). Never a bad idea to do so, just might not be necessary. It is better on a diesel though because diesels put a LOT of impact stress when they fire - very good idea to have the bearings fully lubed. I have not taken it apart and looked at it after sitting a week+, then put it back together and cranked, then took it back apart to see if there is a diff.



A block heater used even when the temp is far from real cold can help in a way as the more time at cold you can avoid the better as all the parts (noting the rings and bore especially) are clearanced for running temps, so when cold they have excessive clearance and wear more. Also the cast iror wears less when it is hot. Forged pistons are real small when cold compared to hot, and rattle around more than cast/hypereutectic ones. Cold starts is where the wear comes in!



Thanks again RWWinslow for your post on engine life.

 

[amsoilman]

Back in the early days of the TDR (FIRST ISSUE OF THE TDR) ,there was an article written by Robert Patton (TDR editer) about "JAYCO INC. ) using the Dodge Turbo Diesel as tow trucks for the transporting of their trailers to their dealers. At that time, they had an 89' model Dodge Cummins Truck that had 500,000 miles of hard use in 3 years 7 Months . As far as engine rebuilds, they had two failures; one caused by a faulty thermostat that resulted in an overheat. The other was due to a dropped valve when the valve spring broke.



I don't know what happened to that truck, by I would guess it made the 1,000,000 mile mark. What about it Mr. Patton? DO you know?



Wayne

amsoilman