Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Lift Pump Transferees ?

[steved]

On my pump that I sacrificed for the cause, I used a bench grinder to grind away the place where the motor housing crimps to the lower rotor casting - and when you open the 2 resulting halves, the risidual fuel that hasn't already drained out of the motor pours out - and there's CLEAR evidence inside that there has been steady fuel flow thru the motor section, among other things, it as clean as new, NO dusting of wear or brush particles, etc. ,



Oh, and remember, there's that open passage/port I pointed out between the rotor outlet and the motor - so MOST fuel will simply drain out of the motor section when the pump is removed from the engine and lines - and GUESS where those particles DO end up in normal operation after being flushed thru the motor by bypass fuel flow...



The fuel filter!



Pays to have a good one, and changed regularly too, right!



OH - the pump I destroyed was given to my by a member here who had well over 100K miles on it - look here at the brushes:



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And of course, how CLEAN it is in there after a steady diesel flow thru it!

I know Gary is correct about the pieces of the pump ending up in the filter... we changed the old man's filter this past weekend to find the bowl full of brass, copper, and aluminum flecks... this is running one of the newer "campaign" pumps... but it still puts out good pressure...



And I don't see the issue with running fuel through the motor... it would serve to lubricate and cool the electric motor... not a bad design actually...



I plan on completing the relocation on the old man's 99 the next time the LP dies... he's on the 80k cycle with the next replacement due at 320k!!



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

ON a related note - and in defense of those Cummins guys - it's pretty unlikely any of them have ever bothered to take one apart - and about all the "official documentation" they are likely to have in available literature would be related to physical dimensions, flow rates and PSI rate - as well as DC current draw - that's about it - and actually, that's about all you will get even direct from Carter...



You have to dig deeper to get the inside info - like actually take one apart!

 

[JCyrbok]

Gary, thanks for the info/pics, as usual it is very good. I would have never thought that there would have been fuel purposely routed into the actual electric motor portion of the pump. I wouldnt have actually thought that the motor would have run submerged in fuel.



Thanks



J-

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks J - here's a complete thread on the internals of the OEM LP:



http://turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108275



And for one additional bit for the doubters, as mentioned further above, yes, the motor sections in these pumps ARE sealed - at ALL external openings, including the electrical power connections. All areas use rubber/neoprene or similar gasketing material, rather than simple bolt-together cases exactly BECAUSE they must be leakproof due to the fuel they circulate inside!



In a few rare cases, seals HAVE failed - resulting in leakage of the fuel that is circulating inside those motor cases.

 

[FDNYMOPARGUY]

Anyone else on the original question of cold weather affecting a relocated lift pump?

 

[mhenon]

Anyone else on the original question of cold weather affecting a relocated lift pump?

My frame mounted Carter has worked fine down to 0 degrees F. It's heat that usually kills electric motors so can't see the cold doing any harm.

I also have the in-tank pump working in series with the Carter. That pump stays submerged in fuel and hasn't blown up yet.

Mike

 

[steved]

Anyone else on the original question of cold weather affecting a relocated lift pump?

I always think of it this way... when you start the truck cold, the pump (no matter where it is located) is pushing/pulling cold fuel...



I have started mine down as low as -35*F (plugged in) without issues, I don't see where relocating the pump would affect it's operation... at these temps, I'd be more worried about the fuel itself causing a problem than the pump having issues pumping cold fuel...



steved

 

[dezeldog]

One more question... . what happened to William???



JIm

 

[WTBurke]

Gary, J-, Steved and all,

This thread is about "cold" operation and I joined in because of the topic.



As for the additional aspects of how the factory Carter pump manipulates fuel I shall no longer express my thoughts.



For my closing statement... . I'm very glad I have a modified fuel transfer system that follows conventional concepts of logic.



I work in the field of pumps that transfer industrial liquids... if my company produced devices that have characteristics such as what has been eluded to here, we would have be sued and put out of business.



I wish no offence to any person on this board and FDNYMOPARGUY this is your topic and I'll back out... . the cold temp operation is very interesting information.



Thank You

William

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Sorry to have diverted this subject from the original theme - but I do want to make one last related point, since it has been commented on, and is pertinent for guys considering moving pumps and making significant alterations to their fuel supply to the VP-44 - especially if you intend to stick with the Carter pumps.



As mentioned and displayed earlier, the Carter pumps circulate fuel thru the motor section as part of the fuel bypass cycle - it's the ONLY path provided in the pump for that function. That's fine for cooling and lubricating the pump, but DOES generate lots of cast-off wear particles from brushes, bearings and other internal motor parts.



The only place for those particles to go, is into the fuel stream - and they MUST be removed somewhere, or else the sensitive close tolerance VP-44 is at severe risk of damage and early failure. As supplied from Dodge, the ONLY interception point for that shed motor trash, is the OEM fuel filter.



In my case, I have added an aftermarket Frantz SUB-micron fuel filter - and in addition to it's FAR better filtering ability, it also allows easy direct inspection of it's top surface to check for trapped garbage - here's a pic of one of my used filter elements and the junk it has caught:



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Under a magnifying glass, the shiny particles appear to be brass/copper - probably cast off wear particles from the motor bushings and armature commutator - in addition, there are other particles less easily seen that are probably wear material from the brushes themselves.



Keep in mind, I use *3* Carter pumps in my setup - the one used to transfer fuel from my in-bed 50 gallon tank, and then the pusher and LP itself - all those each add their own trash to the fuel flow to be filtered out.



Obvious point is, if you DON'T provide better than stock fuel filtration as I have, how MUCH of those shed particles will the OEM filter intercept - and how much risk is the VP-44 exposed to with what it DOESN'T catch? Keep in mind, what's displayed above are only the VISIBLY sized ones - there are most certainly MANY more down at smaller sizes as well!



Has anyone wondered why SOME guys go thru VP-44's on a regular basis, while other guys get relatively high miles from theirs? Is it possible that an especially poor LP might be shedding lots more wear particles than most, and/or the OEM filter just isn't doing it's job, and the VP-44 simply can't cope with the trash it ultimately ends up exposed to?



Yeah, I'm putting LOTS of faith in my own added sub-micron filter by sticking with the Carter pumps - but unfortunately, I have no way of knowing for sure what the aftermarket stuff like FASS, Walbro and others are doing themselves, so really don't have a known frame of reference.



BUT, guys planning on really digging into making changes to their fuel systems might want to consider all this, and perhaps think about using a different pump for their mods than the Carters - I know I would if I was doing it all over again.



But back on the subject - no, I seriously doubt cold weather fuel flow is endangered by placing ANY brand/type pump down close to the tank, and in fact, it should help.



Again, sorry for the disruption, and I'll bow out, unless specific questions are sent my way - and William, hope you didn't take any offense at any of the past posts from me - none was intended - and as I have said, I didn't believe it about the Carters either - until I personally opened one up to see for myself.

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

You raise an interesting point, makes one wonder what filters folks ran before the death of the vp44. . is is the pumps, the filters, the lift pumps, or a combination?

 

[Ncostello]

I ran my own version of the Vulcan kit long before anyone heard of the Vulcan kit. I never had any problems with cold weather issues. I ran it in -20 temps without a stumble.



My relocation pics on a 99



One thing to note... buy a case of Stanadyne Performance Formula for cold weather operation. Its cheap insurance and provides alot of lubrication. In non-scientific settings... I took jar of diesel and left it out in -13 temps overnight. The gelling and waxing was obvious. One capful of Stanadyne, a little swirling around... and the gelling/wax was totally gone. The liquid was crystal clear. So in the winter I guarantee if you run Stanadyne you'll not have problems no matter where your pump is ran.



Also... my old pumps were full of diesel around all the parts. If you have a closed circuit of diesel fluid and sparks from the electric motor... no fire should occur since there is no oxygen (insufficient oxygen) present to support a fire. Diesel fuel is not self supporting for explosions like TNT or C4. Unless I'm wrong.

 

[FDNYMOPARGUY]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Once again, the combined knowledge and experiance of 20,000 plus members comes through. Thanks to your help I debunked Action Al's theory of diesel fuel thermodynamics as related to our trucks. Take that Al!

 

[FDNYMOPARGUY]

OK everyone, Action Al, after admitting defeat on the diesel fuel freeze up scenario, says that the next time I go off road I'm guarranteed to have a pebble bounce up and sheer my lift pump off the frame. Seen as how he is too intimidated by knowledge, I will ask the question:

Has anyone, through any and all types of abuse, sustained any physical damage to the relocated lift pump?

As a precaution, I added a skid plate that protects the underside of the pump, as well as the wiring and fuel line. The transfer case and frame rail pretty much protect the sides and front. Anyone else come up with something like this?

 

[Ncostello]

Mine was located inside the frame and up high enough that I wasn't concerned at all. There were other much more vulnerable things that could have taken a hit and suffered damage which did not have a skid plate. Items such as my oil pan and brake lines come to mind.



Either way... if you have any concerns a simple 1/8" protection plate custom fabricated and fitted to perhaps bolt on using existing frame holes would solve the problem and not hinder access. I could have done this as it is a simple task... but still I just wasn't concerned. And my truck was a 2WD.

 

[steved]

There were other much more vulnerable things that could have taken a hit and suffered damage which did not have a skid plate.

This was my thought exactly...



steved

 

[FDNYMOPARGUY]

I have a short bed quad cab, so space is kinda limited. About 1" of the pump falls below the frame rail. So far I have a 1/4" plate bolted to the transfer case skid plate with extends under the pump.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

This is an old picture, and I no longer use the pre-filter shown - but this gives an idea of relative clearance available - if I was running in anything serious enough to hit/damage the pump, I'm sure it would be the LEAST of my worries! :-laf :-laf



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[FDNYMOPARGUY]

With the short bed and 4 wheel drive, I did not have the clearance to mount the pump that high up on the frame. It's real tight with the fuel tank on one side and the transfer case on the other. Also, there's a hole on the inside of the frame that's about 6" round that forced me to mount the pump lower and to further to the rear than I would have liked. Plus, I wanted nice smooth bends on the fuel line, without crimps.

Anyone actually damage a relocated pump, or wiring or fuel lines? If not, I'm sure I'll be the first.

 

[JCyrbok]

No problems with my FASS on my 01 quad cab short bed 4x4 and the filters hang down substaintially under the rails and slightly under the side of the body. No dents/dints/leaks/anything. I was worried at first and was going to fab up a skid plate but it was "going to be down the road" after the install. I havent done it as I has not seen a need after having the FASS on for a almost 2 years.



Just my 2 cents/hope this helps,



J-