Locomotive Diesel Engine Failure

[SHobbs]

i am now a registered nurse ...



in my previous career i was a professional surveyor ...



we surveyed an accident site survey in Montgomery WV ...



a fan blade flew off the top of a big loco ...



through the steel guard (fan shroud?) and through a house beside the tracks ...



i heard later that the RR wrote a check and there were no lawyers involved ...

A good friend of mine who is an engineer nailed a minivan one day. Unfortunately a kid around 6 years of age was killed, his mother who was driving is now paralyzed from the next down. I can't remember if there were any other people injured. Anyway the RR offered 26 million cash, mom refused, RR offered 20 million cash, mom refused. She chose to go to court and one year later wound up walking away with only 1. 5 million. The RR will usually offer up some cash and some folks take it some don't.

 

[DJW]

A steam engine story Crane, as a 15 year old during WW2 I worked at an engineering plant in England, we had a Marine Steam Boiler delivered. It was transported on a Scammel a Low-Loader, a diesel prime mover (tractor) with rear cab steering in addition to the tractor. The boiler weighed about 54 tons, (Imperial tons, 120960 lbs. ) The plant road was fill and the truck sank and unable to move, they worked at jacking it up, putting railroad ties but nothing worked. We had a steam 5 ton yard crane, they chained it to the rails as the railroad lines were at right angle to the entry road, took the line off the jib and attached it to the front of the tractor. Without any perceived effort it pulled it out of the trench it had made as if a toy, steam engine barely turning over. The driver came to the crane driver to thank him, the crane driver was 18 years of age so full of pee and vinegar. He said he could have pulled him out even if he had been buried up to the cab. I read that the locomotive steam engine had only reached 50% of its development and used 18 century technology right up to the 20 century. (it worked that good) Wot, No Gearbox? Direct Drive my Dear! The Scammel Diesel was Naked and unashamed, exhaust pipe straight up to the sky, no muffler no nothing, just raw power. Sounded Good.

 

[GCroyle]

That would have been great video.



Steam, max torque at stall, correct?

 

[DJW]

GCroyle, when I was in India in the British Army 1945 to 1947 travelled quite a lot by Steam Train, the locomotives had two firemen and one engineer, (driver). After some stops to start, the train would go into reverse before continuing forward not at all times though. Asking an Indian who understood the reason he explained it to me, I forgot but I believe it was to get the workings lined up, I was mystified as the system as designed by the British and in Britain the trains never ever had to back-up to go forward and I rode them daily to go to school. It may have been an economic factor to simplify the building of the engine. Note, regarding today's Muslim fanatics, the Hindus and Muslims would get into it, (fighting) one faction would stop an express train and kill all the Muslims aboard, some months later the Muslims would do the same to the Hindus. (and over and over, Brotherly Love?) with a population of 600,000,000 then hardly noticed. Today's Iraq would seem as a minor disturbance in a Calcutta suburb, carnage you wouldn't believe. No guns or explosives just knives, (messy things) body parts all over.
There were railroad coaches designed for the military, all open interiors, each had a bench seat, a back and overhead rack, at nightfall the seat would be a bed, back hinged up also a bed and the upper rack with equipment in the day would be the top bunk, they were arranged one section facing forward the other facing it, would be on them for days, far better than parades and stuff in camp. Kitchens etc all on the train, at some stops would get food dished out, eat where you sat and slept in the coach.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Warthers Carvings



Vaughn,



I should have attached the link the first time. It is a fascinating museum dedicated to the carvings of Ernest Mooney Warther, it is quite a place. Just for fun, Mr. Warther would give out pliers he cut from a sold pice of basswood made with 10 cuts from his hand made knives. Detail beyond description.

That is really amazing. . . I've seen some impressive ivory & wood carving before but nothing like this. All the rods, valvegear, piping, and how he carved and inlaid the descriptions in the mounting base. . . wow.

I like GCroyle grew up in Cuyahoga County. Brecksville to be exact. I have been to Warther's several times & it is well worth seeing. They also sell knives there & have bougnt several. We send them back every now & then & they sharpen them free.

Medina's one place I wouldn't mind living in, pretty cool town. Had some family living there in the 50s & 60s who were on a radio program broadcast from the basement of a medical equipment factory (Hausted).



I enjoyed taking drives and exploring the two times I stayed in the Cleveland area ('99 and '07). Lots to see and do around there and neat countryside in the rural areas. Went driving out to Chardon (cool town square), East Brook Reservoir, down towards Mantua, Aurora, etc. Last trip checked out Chagrin Falls and walked most of the town. Went to Cedar Point a couple times but didn't make it to the Six Flags.

 

[GCroyle]

DJW,



That's a story that needs more time to hear the stories than we have here on a forum, WOW! India, Steam Trains, The "British", do you have a picture of yourself in service?



Could they have backed it up just a bit to compress the couplers and then get a running start, pick up a car at a time, clunk, clunk, clunk etc?



I could sorta understand the idea of getting the connecting rods in the sweet spot, maximum leverage and torque?



Cedar Point, man thats a roller coaster destination and well known to those of us from the Midwest, went there when you used to get "wrist strings" as all day ride passes, met Jungle Larry at Safari Island when I was in my single digits, he was a Ohio TV legend for us kids.



Amish Country in Ohio is another great daytrip, and I think they might still be running excursion trains, possibly even steam in Sugarcreek, beautiful country. My favorites were the Kidron and Charm areas near Wooster.

 

[JEstes]

GCroyle, when I was in India in the British Army 1945 to 1947 travelled quite a lot by Steam Train, the locomotives had two firemen and one engineer, (driver). After some stops to start, the train would go into reverse before continuing forward not at all times though. Asking an Indian who understood the reason he explained it to me, I forgot but I believe it was to get the workings lined up,

A lot of times they did that to keep from spinning the wheels on startup too. They would back up to compress the slack between the cars, then move forward. That way, the engine wasn't starting off pulling the entire weight of the train. The engine might be more than capable of doing that, but getting that much traction all at once might not be possible.

 

[obert]

Steam, max torque at stall, correct?

Yup! There was a dyno operator, who's passed now, that would crank an engine down to like 50 or 75 rpm, the torque figure would be astronomical. He'd have the engineer close the throttle valve, then for the crowd pleaser, without releasing the brake on the dyno, the engineer would open the valve and insantly return to thousands of pounds torque at the same near stall speed.

A lot of times they did that to keep from spinning the wheels on startup too. They would back up to compress the slack between the cars, then move forward. That way, the engine wasn't starting off pulling the entire weight of the train. The engine might be more than capable of doing that, but getting that much traction all at once might not be possible.

That really makes sense and might be more correct than what I was thinking. With the tractor type engines, at least, some times the engine can stop in a position where the guy has a hard time moving the linkage the way he wants for a particular direction, so he goes the other way half a turn or so, then shifts the linkage. (I think its called a johnson bar). I have a historic boiler licence but not much of an operator yet.

 

[DJW]

GCroyle, yes I do have a few photos somewhere in the house. We went on local leave to Darjeeling in the Himalayas on now what is called the 'Toy Steam Train'. From the Plains at elevation of around 7500 feet in 44 miles, the rails went in switch-backs, went as far as could then reversed on another line, done that a few times, used in other parts of the world in steep terrain zig-zaged up the mountain. Had a man on each side at front to drop a hand full of sand on the rails for traction when needed, (very efficient). Seen it on PBS a couple of times now does not show sand men, (down sized?)

 

[SHobbs]

A lot of times they did that to keep from spinning the wheels on startup too. They would back up to compress the slack between the cars, then move forward. That way, the engine wasn't starting off pulling the entire weight of the train. The engine might be more than capable of doing that, but getting that much traction all at once might not be possible.

We do that alot. Many a time my engineer would tell me he was going to back up and get a running start at it. Now we don't do it on the mainline mind ya but in yard operations is very common

 

[GCroyle]

DJW,



Hopefully you could post a picture of you in service.



Man, this post has gone from diesel failures , to steam, to steam adventures in India, to a museum, tractor pulls, to a couple of Ohio destinations, what is next? Whatever it is, I'm checking back to see it.

 

[Skydiver]

Nice thread!

After reading the posts I have been on youtube watching train videos. The Locomotive cold starts are neat. At age 9 (1969) we lived 5 blocks from the depot. I spent my summers hanging out there and got to know some of the engineers and brakemen. They knew I would stay out of their way. I begged ,but never did get to ride in an engine while they were switching.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Man, this post has gone from diesel failures , to steam, to steam adventures in India, to a museum, tractor pulls, to a couple of Ohio destinations, what is next? Whatever it is, I'm checking back to see it.

Yeah it's about run the gamut . . . I doubt the original poster (C. D. Day) has any idea his thread is still alive and kicking :-laf



Something else for kicks, read about this the other day. . . in Great Britain they built a complete brand new steam locomotive which was recently finished and has been undergoing mainline trials the last two months. From what I'm understanding it was built with the expectation that it will get a lot of use:

First steam engine built in Britain for 50 years takes to the tracks | Mail Online

 

[JEstes]

I remember when I was a little kid the UP 3985 came to town. That was impressive! Supposedly it made a true revenue run a few years ago. The story I heard said that a mainline freight train lost a locomotive, the 3985 was nearby, and it made more sense to use it to pull the train to the nearest yard than it did to run another diesel unit out. I have a hard time believing it, but it would be cool if it were true.

 

[DennyDay]

Yep! I know - - Just saw a neat problem and posted a picture I took, and wow - - It's just about covered every tpe of engine failure - - - also the Ohio guys are right the Warther Museum is worth the trip. If you hit it during the week, RJKorman Railroad shop is just a mile south (their yard is behind Warther) They pioneered the use of B50 in locomotives and don't run visitors off.



Denny

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I remember when I was a little kid the UP 3985 came to town. That was impressive! Supposedly it made a true revenue run a few years ago. The story I heard said that a mainline freight train lost a locomotive, the 3985 was nearby, and it made more sense to use it to pull the train to the nearest yard than it did to run another diesel unit out. I have a hard time believing it, but it would be cool if it were true.

I could go on about the 3985 all day, have ridden on trains pulled by it twice. Won't ever forget the stack talk and volcano of exhaust when they ran WOT for tens of minutes climbing the Blue Mountains in Oregon. Another memorable event was standing trackside when it rolled by at about 40mph on bolted rail, track that was less than smooth . . . talk about an earthquake.

Yes it pulled a revenue freight in 1990, a good sized train at that. 7687 tons, 8000 feet long, 143 cars, no diesels. Ran a couple hundred miles at least (Cheyenne to N Platte). Here are Bob Krieger's comments (fireman on board that day)

The train was a little over 8400 feet long and we topped Archer at 35 mph as stated. It was an APL train secretly arranged between a gentleman at APL and one in Omaha. It came into town and took 5 GE's off the head end for us to tack on, air test and go. I was the fireman out of Sidney that day so I too stood in awe at Archer to watch the spectacle as 3985 charged the hill.
It sounded like a 747 roaring by with its consist in tow. What an awesome event this was and we were only 30 minutes behind schedule at North Platte tho having done the better over the road time.
Another memory in this ole man's bank.
Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

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[rbattelle]

volcano of exhaust when they ran WOT for tens of minutes climbing the Blue Mountains in Oregon. Another memorable event was standing trackside when it rolled by at about 40mph on bolted rail, track that was less than smooth . . . talk about an earthquake.

What a dream come true it would be to ride. Even better, work on it.

I wonder what the maximum steam flow rate is on that Challenger boiler.

Ryan

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

What a dream come true it would be to ride. Even better, work on it.



I wonder what the maximum steam flow rate is on that Challenger boiler.



Ryan

No kidding. I also wonder what kind of CFM is pumping through there, between the expanded steam and the firebox. Supposedly at full throttle the air velocity at the stack is around 200mph. And if you open the firebox door and throw in a glass Coke bottle it will be vaporized before it hits the bricks (or blown out the stack?)

 

[GCroyle]

I'm out of my element here (what's new) but I wonder if the UP 3985 series is one of the ones that Warther carved? He has as I remember carved the largest steam engine that we ever had in the US and the real one is on display in Dearborn at the Ford Museum.



OK steamers, anybody know or got details?

 

[rbattelle]

He has as I remember carved the largest steam engine that we ever had in the US and the real one is on display in Dearborn at the Ford Museum.

That's probably the UP "Big Boy" series. There's one at the Ford museum, and one at the industrial museum in St. Louis. Here's some info.

I think it was the biggest, but it was not the most powerful. The Allegheny class was more powerful (7500 hp vs 6200 hp for the Big Boy). Built to haul coal in the Allegheny mountains. It was also heavier than a Big Boy (the engine, but Big Boy had a heavier tender, so it depends on what you really want to compare).

I've seen an Allegheny in person. There's one at the B&O railroad museum in Maryland. I think it's my favorite, followed closely by the Challenger series, then the Big Boy. I could spend days admiring these engines. I like to trace the various plumbing and mechanical parts to try to figure out what they're for.

But what I know about steam locomotives through history is very limited. I'm not what you'd call a "steamer". Here's a table that's not bad for quick "which was bigger" arguments.

Ryan