LORENZ vs Kore, A REAL WORLD BEATING and the RESULTS

[Lorenz]

On the contrary, I have read of numberous occasions of Bob and Sean going above and beyond to help people out... even people who were not "their customers". This says a lot to me.
--Eric

Just to clarify. Bob is a Cummins Tech at a So Cal Dodge Dealership; lives, breathes, and plays "Cummins". Definitely an asset to the TDR community and the So Cal Rattlin' Ram's which both of us are members. This is were Bob and I met. Frankly, I'm happy to share the same sentence with him, BUT...

Bob is NOT one of my venders, (I purposely don't have a Dealer network) and he doesn't sell anybodies Suspension Systems, though he's tried KORE and CARLI extensively on his personal trucks (yes, plural truck(S). Who has one, when you can have two... ?). He has a pair of my IR coils, that he bought to try and improve his KORE kit. We've all read, that he has since changed it all up, and now rides on a 3. 0 CARLI System, and is super pleased to say the least.

Great post ENafziger. You've summed up a lot of great questions, and got us back on track. Thanks for saving the thread.

 

[kparker]

Lorenz,



If you are going to PM anyone, and would like a reply, you need to delete some stuff from your mailbox.



KP

 

[Sled Dog]

I've been following this closely, as I have been trying to get all the information I can before purchasing a suspension system. I've finally saved the money to do so, and am ready to buy.



A year and a half ago, I wouldn't have considered anything but Kore; however, from what I've seen and heard from multiple sources, I'm glad I didn't have the money back then.



In choosing a system, it seems that three things stand out as most important in my mind. One being the quality of the system, the second being customer support, and the third being reputation/morals/ethics/etc of the company.



I have spent some money with Kore in the past, and, for the most part has been a great experience. I was greatly anticipating the release of the higher lift, technical system that Kore began introducing a year ago. Production must be going a lot slower than planned, because I've made several calls over the past year about this system, and seems the projected release date keeps being stretched and stretched. After waiting for a year on anticipated availability dates, I'm ready to move on and find something else.



As far a suspension quality, I know many are happy with Kore. I also know that many have previously tried Kore, have not been satisfied, and have found other offerings that have worked better for them. I'm not sure what to make of this, but statements like the following are a little confusing to me...







As I recall, the Chase system utilizes 2. 0" shocks vs. the 2. 25" SAW from Lorenz. Assuming the IR coils of Lorenz are similar to the VR coils of Kore, and assuming the deaver minipacks are similar in design, the main differences between these kits seems to be the shocks themselves, and the shock towers.



I know the Chase system used to include aluminum shock towers, but it seems that they are now utilizing the OEM instead. The Lorenz kit comes with steel towers, that, along with the SAW shock allows for more travel.



Additionally, I believe I read that a 2. 25" shock has 21% more piston area and more oil compared to 2. 0" shock. I'm confused as to why Jason would say that the Lorenz 2. 25 kit could not keep up with the Chase kit, which uses smaller shocks.



Furthermore, how could the Chase kit live up to the claim, "All weather, all terrain. The CHASE SERIES uses the same high-performance VR coils and mini leaf packs as the RACE SERIES and incorporates a shock that has been specially-engineered to fight any abuse you can dish out. " (straight from the Kore's website). And yet Jason affirms that the more robust Lorenz kit is a good street system at best? I'm missing something here...



Finally, putting quality/claims/etc aside, it appears that JTNM made repeated attempts to get some help with his Kore Race system. This would understandably be very frustrating to spend $3,500+ and not have a kit that performed as claimed... but then not be able to get any customer support after the purchase is quite disturbing.



On the contrary, I have read of numberous occasions of Bob and Sean going above and beyond to help people out... even people who were not "their customers". This says a lot to me.



I am looking forward with much anticipation to JTNM's experience. A true, unbiased, real-life comparison between Kore, Lorenz 2. 5 and Lorenz 2. 25 is exactly what I've been waiting on. It's always interesting to get feedback from someone not selling a product...



Jason, can you provide some justification as to why the Lorenz 2. 25 is just a street kit, while the Chase system will "fight any abuse I can dish out"?



Sean, thanks for trying to keep things light and friendly. I'm sure others have had some of the same thoughts and questions that I have about what's being said, and would like to see a productive outcome of this thread. BTW, I like the new website!



--Eric

Well Said, Thanks!

 

[Bob4x4]

Bob4x4, It is true that with the threaded type towers, shock removal was a little more cumbersome. There is however, plenty of room to drill and tap some holes to mount any contraption you find necessary. We have thought of many, but never came up with anything that actually benefited us so we left it alone. Maybe we should consider buying them back. Better yet, being that you got your KORE products at such a deep discount, maybe you should do the right thing and just ship them back to us. Even better, send them to Rebecca Boardman. It was her deceased husband that would have made the extra money had you paid full retail price for the items. Sorry Lorenz, that probably could have been saved for a different thread.



KP

I am at a loss as to why a discount has anything to do with this thread. Since you brought it up I will say that Greg was trying to get me to run the KORE system for quite some time before I finaly agreed. He also wanted me to be the area installer. Not something I was interested in. I do not think a 25 % discount should be considered a deep discount :-laf . In the automotive arena a deep discount is cost + 10. The T=rex system was less than my discounted price. Correct. Same # of pieces, same design. I have not seen any other towers like the ones I got before or since. Were they close outs? I also think bringing up Gregs wife was in very poor taste.



Bob

 

[Bob4x4]

Rusty muffler it is always a pleasure to see your inspiring comments



Bob

 

[Giachino]

Lorenz, do you sponsor Bob4X4? Or is that Jake?



* * * Image Removed by Robin - TDR Admin * * *



I call foul on this one, could be very offensive to those that are personally impacted by unfortunate circumstances.

 

[Bob4x4]

I call foul on this one, could be very offensive to those that are personally impacted by unfortunate circumstances.

Just another example of the Kore way.



Bob

 

[JDerbedrossian]

This might be a tactic to lock or delete these threads before anymore damaging info comes out about you know what

 

[Regcabguy]

Special education angels.

I call foul on this one, could be very offensive to those that are personally impacted by unfortunate circumstances.

Yeah,low blow. I work for the school system here in San Diego. The special ed. kids make my day! In contrast are the hooded,baggy clothed "normal" students who don't know how good they've got it! Sorry for drifting from the original intent of the thread.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

I am at a loss as to why a discount has anything to do with this thread. Since you brought it up I will say that Greg was trying to get me to run the KORE system for quite some time before I finaly agreed. He also wanted me to be the area installer. Not something I was interested in. I do not think a 25 % discount should be considered a deep discount :-laf . In the automotive arena a deep discount is cost + 10. The T=rex system was less than my discounted price. Correct. Same # of pieces, same design. I have not seen any other towers like the ones I got before or since. Were they close outs? I also think bringing up Gregs wife was in very poor taste.



Bob

Hey Bob... i looked it up... Greg sold it to you at our cost.

And Rusty's post may be in poor taste, but it was funny.

 

[Bob4x4]

Hey Bob... i looked it up... Greg sold it to you at our cost.

And Rusty's post may be in poor taste, but it was funny.

If a distributor only gets 25 off maybe you should renegotiate,but thanks for the info.



Bob

 

[RMuffles]

* * Link removed by Robin - TDR Admin * *



all proceeds to the above website shall be donated to lorenz industries so that lorenz ind. can help fund THEIR OWN research and development.





... and go to clown college.

 

[blm1890]

Well, this is my first post on TDR, but I have been active on the forums for a few months now. Before this, I have not felt inclined to comment, but I do have to say that this thread takes the cake. I have never seen such a poor display of pathetic childness on this website, and even if the Kore system is superior to the Lorenz system, I would not buy it, just because of the IQ that seems to propagate from the Kore posts on this thread. Currently I have one of the "street systems" mentioned previously and would like to upgrade, but because of the Kore fanboys that have posted here today, I wouldn't take the product if they were giving them away.



If this thread is capable of producing something useful (i. e. rational arguments), then we should proceed. Otherwise, I suggest the moderators shut this nonsense down.



blm1890

 

[kparker]

Yikes this has gotten out of hand.



No Bob4x4. Not the KORE way. Quite possibly a KORE customer, but not the companies stance.



No Jake, there is no fear of any damaging info that could come out of this or any thread. How could it?



ENafziger and Sled Dog,



A 2. 25" shock definitely has a larger piston than a 2. 0". The 2. 25 Sway away being referenced is a non remote reservoir shock. This means that space is used within the shock body for the IFP(internal floating piston). The IFP is used to seperate the oil and the nitrogen within the shock. Oil capacity is greater if this takes place within the remote reservoir. Cooling is also more effective if in a remote reservoir configuration. Which design has more oil capacity is dependent on the internal volume of the 2. 25 shock body minus the volume taken up by the IFP/nitrogen chamber. In a remote reservoir shock, you have the whole internal volume of the shock body, plus the volume of the reservoir minus IFP/nitrogen chamber. The IFP is just a cheaper way of doing it. It can be very effective dependent on the application. I have not driven this one so I can not comment.



Lorenz minipacks are not made by Deaver. Once again, they may be good, but they are not the same. IR coils are not the same as VR coils. The VR coil is the most expensive coil to make on the market, bar none. No expense was taken designing or producing it. I can't comment on the performance of the IR, being that I have not driven it.



The new KORE Chase system was designed around a custom Fox shock that allowed the stock shock tower to be retained. This was to reduce cost and still providle a great all around ride, on and off road. They are valved to provide fade free performance during moderate offroad use. All you can throw at it, is a little subjective.



KORE Technical series systems will be available mid-June. Parts have been ready and waiting for months, but tuning and tweaking has taken longer than suspected.



Bob4x4, Discount had nothing to do with this thread, it came up when you tried to sell me your used parts. Your specific towers were a first or second revision KORE production tower. If they were not engraved, they were a first production run and there are about 250 sets identical out there. If they are engraved and still have the threaded holes there are probably 3 times that many floating around. I don't know for sure, because we have not sold them for a couple of years now. They were a good tower, but the design has changed and improved continuously since the beginning. Sorry if you thought bringing Rebecca up was in poor taste. She had informed me your mis-representation of Greg was as well. I will stay out of that battle in the future.



Hopefully some of this is back on track...



KP

 

[kparker]

blm1890,





Welcome to the TDR. Believe it or not, this is one of the best regulated discussion forums on the web.



As I implied earlier. KORE can not be held accountable for it's customers. If you are possibly hinting at my lack of intellect, well that's a different story. How can I argue with that one??? Ha ha



Fortunately for you, KORE will not be giving any suspension systems away, so for now, you are safe. If you would like to help this thread along, please bring to the table your thoughts or questions. Fear not, some of us are really here to provide and obtain information.



Once again, welcome aboard.



KP

 

[SNorman]

I plan on adding a suspension system in the near future and started doing a little research on what's available. I had no idea I would stumble into such a heated debate that sounds like NASCAR fans arguing over Ford, Chevy, or Dodge. I imagine the reality is the same in that they are all pretty awesome especially compared to stock.



I have talked to Sean of Lorenz Industries and plan on buying his system because he took about 20 minutes out of his day to educate me on suspensions in general. I sent him an email and he got back to me with a phone number that he answered personally. Was very informative and did not pressure me to buy anything. He also did not bad mouth the competitors when I asked him about their products compared to his. That goes a long way in my book and earned him by business when I decide to cough up the cash for the suspension.



I noticed an earlier poster stating that the saw 2. 25 system would start to fade after about 20 minutes of hard wheeling. I talked with Sean long before this thread was started and he told me that about the 2. 25 system. I imagine that would be the case for any shock of similar capacity so I don't see how that makes the chase system any better. I've also never read anything on the Lorenz site or message board post of him stating false claims about what his systems are capable of. He told me the 2. 25 system would fit most peoples needs and blow me away compared to stock. He did not tell me that I would be ready to race or prerun a desert racing course.



I'm sure the 2. 25 system would suit my needs just fine, but have decided to go with the 2. 5 and the dual purpose leaf springs. I'm a big believer in overkill. (g)

 

[kparker]

SNorman,



If you are so inclined, you could pre-run most sections of desert racing courses, with stock suspension, and stock tires. Possibly even doing it without fading your shocks. It's all about knowing how to drive your vehicle, and it's limitations.



The KORE Fox 2. 0's are valved just stiff enough, so they can handle long periods of abuse without fading. You can valve a shock stiffer, and it will preform better for a short period before overheating. There are trade-offs everywhere. Shock design and valving are one of them.



I am unaware of any false claims being made by any of the other players mentioned.



Overkill is good, and 2. 5's are nice in the dirt. Generally speaking smaller shocks with smaller diameter shafts, ride better on the street. Smaller shafts displace less nitrogen while going through the stroke. Full leaf packs, if tuned correctly are a huge improvement both on and off-road.



Good luck with your truck.



KP

 

[Lorenz]

ENafziger and Sled Dog,

A 2. 25" shock definitely has a larger piston than a 2. 0". The 2. 25 Sway away being referenced is a non remote reservoir shock. This means that space is used within the shock body for the IFP(internal floating piston). The IFP is used to seperate the oil and the nitrogen within the shock. Oil capacity is greater if this takes place within the remote reservoir. Cooling is also more effective if in a remote reservoir configuration. It can be very effective dependent on the application. I have not driven this one so I can not comment.

Hopefully some of this is back on track...

KP

We're back on track. Thanks for bringing it 180*

I will have a detailed description along with photos of the IFP tomorrow. Keg is almost right on with everything he said. Here's the vital missing point. Oil capacity with a Remote Reservoir is greater relative to the shock diameter. Obviously the 2. 25 is a larger shock compared to the 2. 0. Thus, even with out a remote reservoir, there is still more oil in the 2. 25 shock. POINT 2 this oil in the 2. 25 NON Remote Reservoir is always closer to the piston, ready to suck away the massive amounts of heat that the piston and valves generate.

It's a common misconception in the Industry regarding Remote Reservoirs. Remote Reservoirs (RR's) are NOT external heat sinks. There just isn't enough hot oil being displaced and exchanged through the small hose and into the Remote Reservoir to have a significant part in cooling the shock. Now if oil was recirculated by using 2 hoses and check valves, 1 hose to, and 1 hose from the reservoir, then we'd be talking 1 screamn cool shock. The oil stored in the RR would become and integral part of the total oil capacity. We've been working on this with Sway-a-Way.

Point being... The 2. 0 Remote Reservoir shock has oil in the reservoir that never touches the piston for a time. A percentage of oil gets "trapped" in the RR and in the hose for many cycles.

We've tested a 20* cooler running temp with the 2. 25 Sway-a-Ways vs the 2. 0 FOX's. I attribute this to the larger pistons. The piston is the meat of the shock. It takes a massive beating and is the hottest part of the shock assembly as a whole. Having a 21% larger area, the 2. 25 piston will dissipate heat energy into the surrounding oil better. We're not talking about a 1 to 1 factor, heat is dissipated exponentially better. There is a huge amount of heat that is exchanged through a relatively small part of each piston. Even a small change in piston area can effect heat build up. We carry both shocks at LORENZ, we're fazing one out. You guess which one.

Here's a "recirculating" remote reservoir set up on the Balwins Trophy Truck. We'll be using massive 4. 0 reservoirs with two hoses and check valves connected to our 2. 5" shocks. Why only 2. 5" shock bodies?... Because we will can retain 10" of travel vs 8". Going to a 3. 0 diameter shock would mean we'd loose 20% of our travel. 10" of travel on a heavy truck is the weak link, I can't afford to loose any more.

Otherwise, I suggest the moderators shut this nonsense down.

I couldn't DISAGREE more. I definately don't want anything modified in the thread. It seems KegParker and KORE don't want this thread shut down either. We'll get it pointed in the right direction!!

 

[Lorenz]

Man you guys are quick for 11:30pm Pacific Time. You had a whole conversation while I was typing my last post.

 

[Jason Hughes]

This again is comic relief. Who says you can't have too much fun, anyway.



DGillispie, Yes I will if indeed you purchased a system, have the receipt, and you come to my shop for installation at my expense. Please call for an appointment.



JTNM, There is a reason the majority of the off-road racing community run Fox or Kings, and its not because they suck. Here's a hint: its because they are superior. And SAWs are not easier to work on. And I didn't say you were lying. Your experience was real. Only your solutions were non-sense. How in the world can you not properly valve a Fox 2. 5 shock to cater to your daily off road driving? Here's another hint: someone on the phone can only guide you so far. I realize you are done with Kore products but if you have problems in the future try having a friend video tape the truck traveling down these roads in question and watch what it is doing. Only from here can you get a better idea of where you need to go with your valving. Us RACERS do it all the time and you will be surprised at what you see might be different than what you feel. Here's the kicker:-laf I have many years of experience desert racing-driving and co-driving (by the way that is me in the viejas class 8 truck on the cover of the latest Dirt Sports magazine in Laughlin this year) Yet none of you guys ever pick up the phone and call me. You all hide behind these threads. My doors and phone are always open and my business is successful by not screwing people.



DPeltonen- Interesting you question my credibility, over the years as a business owner I have developed relationships with many vendors, some good, and some bad. So with that being said I do let my experiences dictate my decisions, because so far they have been right. My arm was not twisted into retailing Kore components, the difference is that I CHOSE Kore components based on my experiences. And I chose them because they are the best. All around they look the best,install the best,are built the best, and function the best. Kent Kroekers integrity in the industry is far superior than any other suspension company out there, hands down. Yes I can copy it, yes it has been copied, and yes it has been butchered but why re-invent the wheel? Would you rather have Filet Mignon or ground beef for dinner? They both have their place in the world for the right reasons. Fly-by-nights don't typically make it in this industry, but Kore will be here for many years to come and that is why Kore is in my shop exclusively. I turn down offers, often very lucritive, from other companies all the time, so NO, I am not about the almighty dollar. I am about providing the best components and service to my clients. Its going to take more than just a few of you and your petty antics to change the future of Kore.



ENafziger-Yes you are missing something here, keep digging. My doors and phone are always open. Do you want to hear from weekend warriors or people that have real race experience?



If I missed anyone don't take it personally, there is always tomorrow. I can only handle so much comedy at one sitting.