LORENZ vs Kore, A REAL WORLD BEATING and the RESULTS

[FGoodwin]

I turn down offers, often very lucritive, from other companies all the time, so NO, I am not about the almighty dollar. I am about providing the best components and service to my clients. Its going to take more than just a few of you and your petty antics to change the future of Kore. ...

hmmm $2000 for an axle truss when it is off the truck, or $600 when it is still on the truck? Something tells me the above may not be reality. And oh by the way, many of us “non-racers” have more hours in the desert over the last 30 years than some of the arrogant pros ever had.



“Racing since 1979”, non-professionally of course.

 

[kparker]

Axle truss pricing? With custom fabrication work, you get what you pay for. Go on down to Jason's shop. and see how many hours go into doing it. I have seen them done several ways, but HRC takes their time to do it right.



Arrogant? Is that directed towards Jason Hughes? That's funny. Give him a call. Those assumptions will be dismissed immediately. I think even Lorenz would argue that one with you.



No one is questioning your time in the desert. It looks like maybe you even live there. Desert time is in your favor relative to the rest of us. Seat time racing and tuning suspensions might be different though. It really doesn't matter though. Bottom line is it sounds like you got a great deal on an axle truss.



KP

 

[Jason Hughes]

hmmm $2000 for an axle truss when it is off the truck, or $600 when it is still on the truck? Something tells me the above may not be reality. And oh by the way, many of us “non-racers” have more hours in the desert over the last 30 years than some of the arrogant pros ever had.



“Racing since 1979”, non-professionally of course.

FGoodwin I agree 2k is a lot of money for a truss. But non the less it is a truss. And the price has come down a little since I spent time making them go faster. Please send me a picture of the $600 dollar chunk of metal boogered to the bottom of this axle so I get some more laughs. And when you are in the desert spending all these hours there, think about how not cool it is making assumptions about how long it takes me in a real shop with real overhead to do. Again do you want a steak or a cheeseburger? So keep riding those coattails and sitting on the sidelines cheering and begging for the lowest, cheapest,dirtiest way to buy products for your truck and bashing everyone else. It sounds to me like YOU are motivated by not having any bucks

 

[THUREN]

It's a common misconception in the Industry regarding Remote Reservoirs. Remote Reservoirs (RR's) are NOT external heat sinks. There just isn't enough hot oil being displaced and exchanged through the small hose and into the Remote Reservoir to have a significant part in cooling the shock.

I love suspension talk!!!!!!

FWIW I strongly disagree with this Sean... . No disrespect meant, just my feelings.

Here's why...

Take a 7/8" dia. shaft, 10" stroke, 2. 5" shock. . Everytime the shock shaft completes one full stroke, 6 cubic inches of fluid is displaced into the reservoir. The main body holds approx 41. 8 cubic inches, so in less than 7 strokes, the shock body has exchanged it's volume into the reservoir. Even though perfect mixing doesn't occur, and full strokes are not happening full-time, it still represents the fluid exchange. BUT, 7 strokes could be a blink of an eye. .

Kinda like a radiator linked to an engine. Perfect mixing doesn't happen, but the radiator sure does a great job of cooling the engine. An engine filled with water and capped sure can't deal with heat too well...

I'll be building future 2. 5's with bigger reservoir and heat sinks for trucks run hard...

There are many other factors, and the recirculating shock is a good idea. Bypass shocks are "recirculating" FWIW...

Don

 

[FGoodwin]

FGoodwin I agree 2k is a lot of money for a truss. But non the less it is a truss. And the price has come down a little since I spent time making them go faster. Please send me a picture of the $600 dollar chunk of metal boogered to the bottom of this axle so I get some more laughs. And when you are in the desert spending all these hours there, think about how not cool it is making assumptions about how long it takes me in a real shop with real overhead to do. Again do you want a steak or a cheeseburger? So keep riding those coattails and sitting on the sidelines cheering and begging for the lowest, cheapest,dirtiest way to buy products for your truck and bashing everyone else. It sounds to me like YOU are motivated by not having any bucks

Jason, I am a capitalist, through and through. I make my money in the vehicle repair business also. I do not begrudge you making a buck. I am pointing out that in this, the world’s greatest country, competition is good. And I am very happy with my $600 non-“boogered” truss. I caught three feet of air on our last trip to the dunes and nary a crack in a weld.



The truss you put on Paul’s truck is beautiful, a work of art in welding. Mine, is not perfect cosmetically, but a well-known guy in the Racing industry made it for me, didn’t charge an arm and a leg, and it has held up perfectly. The pics are already posted on a previous thread I started.



I am not a “pro” racer. But I am a “pro” in the customer service and aftermarket auto repair industry. This thread as you have pointed out on more than one occasion does have some comedy, but I prefer the continued “class” of Lorenz with never a disparaging remark, to all this defense and name calling by a company like Kore that should be able to stand on it’s own name and merit. I have some Kore components left on my truck, I have had the shocks re-valved and I love them, along with the springs. The towers from Kore are gone. My truck works really well. I am looking forward to some new goodies available from a competitor of my choice, when I can get up enough money, me being a “po folk and all, not havin any bucks”.



“Some times it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt”

 

[Jer75]

HI all! I'm new to TDR and looking at this thread i just want to know from everyone is you say "my truck works great" tell us how your stuff works great! What trucks or offroad vehicles do you have to judge by? If the only thing you can compare to is your friends truck that has a "lift kit" than you really don't know if your truck works great or not!

 

[Jer75]

By the way i have heard a lot that my car or truck works great and when i got a ride i thought different! Maybe it has a lot to do with driving style!

 

[Lorenz]

I love suspension talk!!!!!!



Take a 7/8" dia. shaft, 10" stroke, 2. 5" shock. .

Don

Try the calculation with a 2. 0 shock, 5/8" shafts, and . 25"id x 14" long hose. We're talking about 3 cubic inches of oil displaced into the Reservoir. The hose retains . 69 cubic inches of oil that never reaches the Remote Reservoir.



This all adds up to less than half a cup of oil that sometimes makes it's way in and out of the 2. 0 Remote Reservoir. For those of you trying to visualize this, pull out your wife's cookware. The amount of oil we're calculating is about 10 teaspoons.



I think this would support my point. Remote Reservoirs are not heat exchangers . There isn't enough oil in the reservoir of a 2. 0 shock to have any effect in cooling a shock that has 5000lbs worth of Cummins bouncing on it.



Not to beat a dead horse but... The analogy of a radiator doesn't fit. A radiators capacity is measured in Gallons vs Teaspoons. The Cummins holds 7. 3 gallons of fluid, it flows at 100% (w/the thermostat open), it is pushed by the water pump, and it's cooled by a hujungous fan, while it sits directly in 60mph wind at times. Radiators are designed to exchange heat, while Remote Reservoirs on a 2. 0 shock are not.



Even though we boarded half of the readers, I'd still like to see your calculations on a 2. 0 shock.



You don't have to apologize for disagreeing, we've talked to much over the phone calculating travel and tower heights. You gave me a schooling on flutter stacks. :-laf



I want to see these heat sinks. I've debated this too, but the cost involved with machining the aluminum sleeves wouldn't be worth it. There's no real place to get the front resi's on a Dodge into the wind to help cool them. The hot radiator air wouldn't be efficient? This is why I thought 4. 0 resi's and recirculating the oil would be a better/cost effective alternative?

 

[Jason Hughes]

HI all! I'm new to TDR and looking at this thread i just want to know from everyone is you say "my truck works great" tell us how your stuff works great! What trucks or offroad vehicles do you have to judge by? If the only thing you can compare to is your friends truck that has a "lift kit" than you really don't know if your truck works great or not!

Welcome to the TDR. You make a very good point that I have been trying to get across for some time now without being "arrogant" or a "pro-racer" or focused only on the almighty dollar when in reality I have a passion for this industry and I would rather be answering and helping someone else on another thread rather than defending my credibility all the time on these suspension threads.



Again welcome to the TDR.

 

[Doubleclutch]

There sure are an awful lot of intelligent guys here, getting all hot and bothered over the "religion/politics" of suspension (aka wasting time on the computer). The sun's out- go out and play. Let this thread unravel because you're SURE not going to change anybody's mind.

Greg

PS- it doesn't look good to the new guys.

 

[Baja_Mike]

DPeltonen- Interesting you question my credibility, over the years as a business owner I have developed relationships with many vendors, some good, and some bad. So with that being said I do let my experiences dictate my decisions, because so far they have been right. My arm was not twisted into retailing Kore components, the difference is that I CHOSE Kore components based on my experiences. And I chose them because they are the best. All around they look the best,install the best,are built the best, and function the best.

Jason, I am curious now. Have you had any experience with the Carli kit? I am not trying to bash you. I simply see that you are not that far away from us and I would like to give you an opportunity to experience it. I'm not trying to change your mind about Kore but I simply would like to hear your honest opinion. My truck has the Advanced Performance 2. 5 with the Fox shocks on it. So if you have a truck with the unlimited system this would make for a good apples to apples comparison since both will have Fox's on them. I would be willing to drive down to you with a full complete kit so that you can even look at it off the truck. Then we can take both trucks on the freeway, city streets, and whatever off road spot of your liking. I would even be willing to take off my air bumps to further even out the comparison. What do you say? If you don't want to respond on the forum you can PM me as well.

 

[Baja_Mike]

Try the calculation with a 2. 0 shock, 5/8" shafts, and . 25"id x 14" long hose. We're talking about 3 cubic inches of oil displaced into the Reservoir. The hose retains . 69 cubic inches of oil that never reaches the Remote Reservoir.



This all adds up to less than half a cup of oil that sometimes makes it's way in and out of the 2. 0 Remote Reservoir. For those of you trying to visualize this, pull out your wife's cookware. The amount of oil we're calculating is about 10 teaspoons.



I think this would support my point. Remote Reservoirs are not heat exchangers . There isn't enough oil in the reservoir of a 2. 0 shock to have any effect in cooling a shock that has 5000lbs worth of Cummins bouncing on it.



Not to beat a dead horse but... The analogy of a radiator doesn't fit. A radiators capacity is measured in Gallons vs Teaspoons. The Cummins holds 7. 3 gallons of fluid, it flows at 100% (w/the thermostat open), it is pushed by the water pump, and it's cooled by a hujungous fan, while it sits directly in 60mph wind at times. Radiators are designed to exchange heat, while Remote Reservoirs on a 2. 0 shock are not.



Even though we boarded half of the readers, I'd still like to see your calculations on a 2. 0 shock.



You don't have to apologize for disagreeing, we've talked to much over the phone calculating travel and tower heights. You gave me a schooling on flutter stacks. :-laf



I want to see these heat sinks. I've debated this too, but the cost involved with machining the aluminum sleeves wouldn't be worth it. There's no real place to get the front resi's on a Dodge into the wind to help cool them. The hot radiator air wouldn't be efficient? This is why I thought 4. 0 resi's and recirculating the oil would be a better/cost effective alternative?

If you look at Ivan Stewarts truck it had heat sinks built into the reservoir lines. They had the recirculating setup but they took it a step further and put heat sinks on the reservoir lines. It actually looked like a couple trans coolers attached to each shock. I would post pics of it but Joe's garage is pretty hard to get into.

 

[THUREN]

Try the calculation with a 2. 0 shock, 5/8" shafts, and . 25"id x 14" long hose. We're talking about 3 cubic inches of oil displaced into the Reservoir. The hose retains . 69 cubic inches of oil that never reaches the Remote Reservoir.



This all adds up to less than half a cup of oil that sometimes makes it's way in and out of the 2. 0 Remote Reservoir. For those of you trying to visualize this, pull out your wife's cookware. The amount of oil we're calculating is about 10 teaspoons.



I think this would support my point. Remote Reservoirs are not heat exchangers . There isn't enough oil in the reservoir of a 2. 0 shock to have any effect in cooling a shock that has 5000lbs worth of Cummins bouncing on it.



Not to beat a dead horse but... The analogy of a radiator doesn't fit. A radiators capacity is measured in Gallons vs Teaspoons. The Cummins holds 7. 3 gallons of fluid, it flows at 100% (w/the thermostat open), it is pushed by the water pump, and it's cooled by a hujungous fan, while it sits directly in 60mph wind at times. Radiators are designed to exchange heat, while Remote Reservoirs on a 2. 0 shock are not.



Even though we boarded half of the readers, I'd still like to see your calculations on a 2. 0 shock.



You don't have to apologize for disagreeing, we've talked to much over the phone calculating travel and tower heights. You gave me a schooling on flutter stacks. :-laf



I want to see these heat sinks. I've debated this too, but the cost involved with machining the aluminum sleeves wouldn't be worth it. There's no real place to get the front resi's on a Dodge into the wind to help cool them. The hot radiator air wouldn't be efficient? This is why I thought 4. 0 resi's and recirculating the oil would be a better/cost effective alternative?

Left you a msg today Sean... .



Really, all this is a matter of opinion, so I'll just try to explain some of mine...



~ A shock piston/valves/etc is the best "mixer" ever, so recirculating though the body itself is pointless. The shock does that wonderfully by itself.



~ We are talking about heat dissipation over time. More volume helps increase this time. If our trucks were REAL race trucks more drastic measures would surely be needed...



~ Say you filled the reservoir oil with a colored dye. First 1" shaft stroke(with this 5/8" shaft 14" . 25ID hose shock), half the hose oil will squirt out into the main body, and then mostly body oil will be sucked up in the hose mixing a bit. Do this over and over multiple times a second and it won't take long to swap oil. Go full stroke, even quicker... .



~ Our trucks run 1:1 motion ratios(or VERY close to it) so the heat generated is no where near what linkage suspension sees. Make a 14" travel shock support 30" of travel and heat becomes a HUGE deal.



~ Most important to me... The harder you work the shock and create heat, the more oil swapped from res. to body. When you are cruising down the highway a remote reservoir shock isn't mandatory. Then, when you start using the travel and making some real heat, oil starts swapping and the reservoir comes into play. Have that oil sitting there cooled down ready to go would be even better. .



I'll try to post back in the morning if I think of more stuff...



-Don

 

[kparker]

Heat exchange does occur between the reservoir and the shock body. Lorenz correctly stated that the piston/valve stacks are responsible for creating the majority of the heat. The next question then, is why is the reservoir temp never appreciably different than the shock? Hmmm? Heat transfer is taking place through the oil. Suppose you were to rig up a misting system that sprayed water on the reservoir under hard use. Would it have no effect on shock temp? Sure it would. It would cool down the oil in the reservoir, which would in turn lower the overall oil temp. It is hard for any fluid to cool if it is surrounded by more fluid of the same temp. Surround it with a heat conducting material(steel, aluminum), that is exposed to ambient temps, and more cooling would occur.



If you would like to check something else, do this. Mount your reservoirs right next to your exhaust manifolds. Get your reservoirs super hot and tell me that your shock temps don't rise at all. Reverse process, but heat exchange just the same...



Some day in the future we will do a little experimentation for everyone. I will take a 2. 0 Fox shock with an IFP and put it on one side of the vehicle. Then we will mount a Chase shock on the other. I will even rig a special mount so we can make the IFP shock long enough to hold the exact amount of oil as the remote reservoir shock. Go out, romp it around and check the results. The remote reservoir shock will be cooler I can guarantee.



With that being said, the Chase shock was designed to retain the OEM shock towers. In order to satisfy those requirements, a remote reservoir was required to have the shock fit in that application, and perform as expected. The key was valving the shock such that it would have a compliant, fade free, ride that would handle most ordinary off road abuse.



Reservoirs cool.



KP

 

[Lorenz]

Some day in the future we will do a little experimentation for everyone. I will take a 2. 0 Fox shock with an IFP and put it on one side of the vehicle. Then we will mount a Chase shock on the other. Go out, romp it around and check the results. The remote reservoir shock will be cooler I can guarantee.

KP

I did this experiment. We used the 2. 25 Sway-A-Way IFP next to the 2. 0 Fox RR. The 2. 25 Sway-a-Way was 20* cooler. This is why we're not going to stock 2. 0 Fox at LORENZ. The Fox's will be available, on a per order basis, but the 2. 25 SAW is a superior shock, and it's easier to mount.





I just happened to have a pic of the "transmission line", reservoired shocks. Are these the ones your refering to bajamike?

 

[Baja_Mike]

I did this experiment. We used the 2. 25 Sway-A-Way IFP next to the 2. 0 Fox RR. The 2. 25 Sway-a-Way was 20* cooler. This is why we're not going to stock 2. 0 Fox at LORENZ. The Fox's will be available, on a per order basis, but the 2. 25 SAW is a superior shock, and it's easier to mount.





I just happened to have a pic of the "transmission line", reservoired shocks. Are these the ones your refering to bajamike?

That's a pretty small pic but I don't think those are them. The ones Ivan ran were PPI position sensitive shocks using bilstien reservoirs and stickers. :-laf They did run the recirculating dual hose check valve setup as shown (how you can really get the fluid transfer done between reservoir and shock body) but on Ivan's the coolers ran from one side of the truck to the other just below where the rear window would be. Really trick setup. I think only the last generation truck had this. The first couple generations ran dual bilsteins and towards the end they made what I believe was a 3in. diameter position sensitive coilover and ran single per wheel. Oo.

 

[HLewallen]

Some day in the future we will do a little experimentation for everyone. I will take a 2. 0 Fox shock with an IFP and put it on one side of the vehicle. Then we will mount a Chase shock on the other. I will even rig a special mount so we can make the IFP shock long enough to hold the exact amount of oil as the remote reservoir shock. Go out, romp it around and check the results. The remote reservoir shock will be cooler I can guarantee.

Okay - if in this hypothetical experiment of yours both shocks have the exact same total oil capacity, by what magic is the RR shock staying cooler? I am sorry but that post is just hypothetical nonsense. I have a hard time caring about opinions when we are (I think) trying to have a technical discussion.



Opinions are great when you are not trying to understand the topic and are just asking "those in the know" for suggested solutions, but once we enter the discussion as to WHY, opinions are no longer appropriate. Do you have experimental results? Measured shock temps? Physics based explanations? Fine, post those.



Hughes - I don't mean to pick on you, but if you are tired of defending your credibility then stop. All you have done here is give opinion with no technical argument. You complain about people calling you arrogant, and then in your next post ask someone to send you a picture of their truck so you can laugh at them. It has been said that you are a good guy in person, and I am willing to bet you are, so I suggest you re-read this post and see how you are comming off here.



Back in the good old days when Kroeker and Boardman were posting, one of the reasons (I think) that the KORE stuff got so popular is that they were very careful to come off as amicable in places like this forum. Based on their online reputations, I had no problem buying their product. I would love to have a $600 front axle truss, even if boogered, as long as it worked. According to this post, that limits my vendor options if I don't want to get laughed at.

 

[Baja_Mike]

Okay - if in this hypothetical experiment of yours both shocks have the exact same total oil capacity, by what magic is the RR shock staying cooler? I am sorry but that post is just hypothetical nonsense. I have a hard time caring about opinions when we are (I think) trying to have a technical discussion.



Opinions are great when you are not trying to understand the topic and are just asking "those in the know" for suggested solutions, but once we enter the discussion as to WHY, opinions are no longer appropriate. Do you have experimental results? Measured shock temps? Physics based explanations? Fine, post those.

It's actually quite easy to do. Temp tapes are available from McMaster Carr I believe and are inexpensive. We can get 2 trucks together and temp tape the shock body and put a separate temp tape on the reservoir (the one that has a reservoir obviously) and see what they reveal. Sean can bring a truck with the 2. 25 setup and Keg can bring a truck with the 2. 0 setup and we could actually get actual hard evidence.

 

[kparker]

Lorenz, How each shock is valved is going to also dictate temps. Your 2. 0 Fox system that you stocked at one time, does not necessarily duplicate that which we offer.



HLewallen, The external reservoir in this case would act as a larger heatsink. That was what was being explained. Simply comparing an IFP 2. 0 to a remote reservoir 2. 0 with greater oil volume would have a quite obvious result. Yes of course the remote reservoir with greater oil capacity would be a cooler running shock. The discussion was whether or not remote reservoirs had any cooling capabilities.



Fortunately HLewallen, I do care about your opinions. They are intriguing, and although this is a technical discussion, your emotions are welcome never the less. Like BajaMike suggested, you can use temp tape, or laser thermometers, which is how we generally check shock temps.



We at KORE liked the way the 2. 0 Fox shocks performed in the stock location. This required a remote reservoir to satisfy our expectations. What data would you be interested in obtaining?



BajaMike, We can probably round a truck or two up. Maybe a 100 miles or more offroad at moderate to high speeds? A big Baja trip maybe? Mojave? Could be fun.



KP

 

[THUREN]

It's actually quite easy to do. Temp tapes are available from McMaster Carr I believe and are inexpensive. We can get 2 trucks together and temp tape the shock body and put a separate temp tape on the reservoir (the one that has a reservoir obviously) and see what they reveal. Sean can bring a truck with the 2. 25 setup and Keg can bring a truck with the 2. 0 setup and we could actually get actual hard evidence.

I'll come and bring my IR temp gun... Goes up to 1400*. . :-laf



Now that I FINALLY have a "real" truck we all gotta' get out and whomp' around one weekend. .



-Don