Losing confidence

[coobie]

Look Biggieou, you took a great thread and turned it into a Union bashing pill of crape. Not sure about your real mental ability, but you really make yourself sound STUPID. Know one gives anyone anything, those people, both men and woman, work very hard for their money. From the folks in Columbus Indiana that assemble the Cummins engine we love to tote about to the people in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana that build sub assemblies to trucks, they all earn their pay. You seem to have a problem with people that make more then the Federal minimum wage, What gives? 20-30 dollars an hour as you stated isn't that much for a person to make. Everything is going up much faster then the amount people are earning, most people haven't gotten a decent raise in years, and you want to RAG on someone that obviously earn more then YOU. If you want to get your piece of the pie, go back to school, or get a talent but leave others alone that are ahead of you. Autoworkers and others that assemble all the parts and pieces that go into a vehicle work very hard, they have to do the same repetitive movements all day, and they have to do it right every time. Sure things happen, we are all human, so thats normal but by and large they do a great job day in and out. For the record, the average autoworker makes closer to $35. 00/hour, just like the pipe-fitters make $36. 00/hour or the Electricians make $34. 00/hour (scale depends on the region). All of these people work very hard for their money (theirs a song in that) they are exposed to constant dangers and changing weather. I have no problem with the average man trying to make as much as he can, they could most time double their wages and it still would not be enough. Working people are just that, they work their whole life and just get by. Know one that works for a living is ever going to get rich, management and others with the same attitude as you see to that. But most I know do not want to get rich, they would just like to get paid a fair wage for what they do. Not sure what your profession is, but who do you think buys all these 40 thousand dollar trucks? I'll give you a hint, it's not anyone working for minimum wage. I have worked all of my life, and for much more then what you are complaining about, but I earned every red cent.

Well said Y-knot,I need to take biggieou on my lazy union electric line crew up a 200 ft transmission tower in the middle of the night with the wind blowing abouit 40 miles an hour to see if we earn our pay or not. coobie :-laf

 

[Coolslice]

When the unions are gone who are the wackos gonna' blame ?? Sounds like some of you kids need to grow up . I bought my first truck in '58. a GMC, and have bought lots of trucks since and for a fact the newer gen trucks are superior to the older gen trucks. Japanese superior ?? Big pile of BS . Apparently some of you Jap apoligests were not here when Jap cars/trucks first imported into this country. They were junk.

There never has been A PERFECT TRUCK or never will be. I think we've got a generation of WHINNERS that need to look at what is really happenin'. Grow up and quit stabbin' the workin' folks in the back... ... ... ... ..... JIM

Japanese vehicles ARE superior, quality wise- thats a fact. It has nothing to do with the workers, since many Japanese cars are made by Americans. Maybe I'd hate them too if I hadn't been born 30 years after the war.



If it wern't for the Japanese, you'd probly be driving a K car . I think we now have a generation of people who expect the most for their hard earned dollar and could care less where it comes from or who makes it. It makes no difference what Japanese cars were like 30 years ago, we're talking about today... As we all know, American cars wern't any good back then either. . Do we remember the Gremlin, Pinto, Pacer, need I say more... . :-laf

 

[R-N-R]

I work for an OEM automotive supplier and I am amazed at the lengths and expense that our customers require of our plant to control quality issues. I do wonder if the auto mfgs practice what they preach. I think our society has been turning towards a very individualized culture since the early seventies, it is just coming to a head now. I'll just avoid sharing my political opinions in this thread, but look at today's law suits for example. I agree that executive compensation packages are crazy, but also realize the revolving door environment that they work in. I think the unions have evolved into their own business as a 1st priority, but the intent is still to protect our valuable workers. It is just a shame that so many people take advantage of "opportunities" designed to protect them. I have heard the stories about people that do or did not have to "work" for their money, but I also realize that they represent the minority of the overall workforce. I believe that there are three sides to every story, yours mine, and the truth. I just try to look at things from all sides.



I have read that the domestic auto companies are 3 generations deep in paying retirement and medical benefits. There is only one or two transplant companies that are 2 generations deep, most of the foreign companies are only paying benefits to 1 generation. This represents a huge cost advantage to them and they can afford to have better systems, benefits, etc... It is simply a negative financial factor that Americans have been doing it longer. Certainly there are more aspects to the problems. For example, the auto companies are huge businesses. It takes time for decisions to deploy throughout the organization, the problems have typically reached critical mass by the time the decision makers are aware that they made a bad call. Add that to the fact that by then new problems have surfaced. It is a vicious circle and a tough one to break out of when $$$ is tight.



I hate to be the "voice" of doom and gloom, but I a few months ago I heard that in the 70's, and earlier I suppose, we enjoyed > 90% of the auto sales in the USA. By the 80's we were down to 80% and are currently around 55%. The dates on those figures might be a bit off so consider them as representative. The predictions are that by 2010 domestic car companies will represent 40% of vehicle sales in America. Keep in mind that although many parts are manufactued in the US by American workers, the profits still get sent "home". Fortunately the future is not written in stone and things can be changed! What are you going to do to help save our industries???? In the 20's, 80% of American businesses were privately owned. Today 20% of businesses are privately owned. Personally I would like to see a happy medium.



FWIW,

Bill

 

[tractorface]

Actually

It is the consumers fault. If the level of quality is unacceptable STOP BUYING the new trucks every year. As long as we buy em they can justify what they are doing. Hit em where it hurts. Fix your old truck and boycott the new. It is the only way. If I cn spend 30 cents and sell you a POS for 10$ and my sales increase every year what is my incentive to put another 50 cent into my widget to make it better? Don't get me wrong I hate having a 53 and it pisses me off that I have to worry about it I will not buy a new truck nd support the BS. Only buy used vehicles, there are plenty everywhere. Te bg three will understand that Unions or no Unions. :-laf

 

[biggieou]

Well said Y-knot,I need to take biggieou on my lazy union electric line crew up a 200 ft transmission tower in the middle of the night with the wind blowing abouit 40 miles an hour to see if we earn our pay or not. coobie :-laf

When in my post did I say anything about your union??? Go ahead and reread my posts, I'm pretty sure I was specifically talking about the auto unions.



As far as Japanese cars not being superior to American cars, are you serious??? Have you test driven all of these cars, or only American cars? Ride in a Camry, and an Intrepid and tell me which ones higher quality?? Now that said, I still prefer older generation American vehicles for ease of maintenance and parts availablity ie. junkyards and power :-laf . Ive ridden in Lincolns, and Mercedes, Cadillacs and Lexus' there is no comparison, I am sorry, and if it wasnt for the Japanese we would still be driving around in the pieces of garbage that the US industry was producing in the 70's.

 

[biggieou]

It is the consumers fault. If the level of quality is unacceptable STOP BUYING the new trucks every year. As long as we buy em they can justify what they are doing. Hit em where it hurts. Fix your old truck and boycott the new. It is the only way. If I cn spend 30 cents and sell you a POS for 10$ and my sales increase every year what is my incentive to put another 50 cent into my widget to make it better? Don't get me wrong I hate having a 53 and it pisses me off that I have to worry about it I will not buy a new truck nd support the BS. Only buy used vehicles, there are plenty everywhere. Te bg three will understand that Unions or no Unions. :-laf

I totally agree w/you tractor. Thats why I'm chuggin along in my 92, and my father in his 79 F-100. When the Big 3 starting building vehicles to last longer than 5 years, then maybe I will think about buying one.

 

[coobie]

Yea I hate to step on anyone's toe's, but my God do I hate unions. At one time they were needed, but the demands they want and get today is the equivalent to an armed stick up.

I believe I have read your posts,Quote by you biggieou (But my God I do hate unions) H,mm need I say more. Maybe you need to get a few more years under your belt before you run your chops to much next time. coobie :-laf

 

[J&LRam]

coolslice says " do we remember Gremlin, Pinto, Pacer, need I say more ". Yep you can say more. You forgot the Datsun, Toyota cars/trucks ,from the same time, to add to your list of junk. Japanese superior . Total BS hype from foreign makers. I've got a '03 Buick Le sabre and a '03 Dodge/Cummins 2500, a real truck, that will meet or beat Jap superiority any way you want to look.

That superiorty market hype came when the Japs entered the the US market . They were competing in our small compact car market and produced the same low quality cars we did. They were the first to start making a better quality compact car but NEVER did make a full size car. They've carried that superior sales hype right on up through the years. Same BS hype Ford uses claming their truck is superior..... JIM

 

[biggieou]

I believe I have read your posts,Quote by you biggieou (But my God I do hate unions) H,mm need I say more. Maybe you need to get a few more years under your belt before you run your chops to much next time. coobie :-laf

Hey you can have your opinion on whatever you want, and I can have mine. Mine personally is that I do not like ie. hate unions. Your feelings can be different, and quite frankly I dont care. But dont ever say I need a few more years before I run my chops, thats BS, I will say whatever I feel like saying, and if you dont like it, dont read my post.

 

[biggieou]

coolslice says " do we remember Gremlin, Pinto, Pacer, need I say more ". Yep you can say more. You forgot the Datsun, Toyota cars/trucks ,from the same time, to add to your list of junk. Japanese superior . Total BS hype from foreign makers. I've got a '03 Buick Le sabre and a '03 Dodge/Cummins 2500, a real truck, that will meet or beat Jap superiority any way you want to look.

That superiorty market hype came when the Japs entered the the US market . They were competing in our small compact car market and produced the same low quality cars we did. They were the first to start making a better quality compact car but NEVER did make a full size car. They've carried that superior sales hype right on up through the years. Same BS hype Ford uses claming their truck is superior..... JIM

Did you see what I wrote earlier??

As far as Japanese cars not being superior to American cars, are you serious??? Have you test driven all of these cars, or only American cars? Ride in a Camry, and an Intrepid and tell me which ones higher quality?? Ive ridden in Lincolns, and Mercedes, Cadillacs and Lexus' there is no comparison.

It's not BS hype when its TRUE! For losing shares, the Big 3 has noone to blame but themselves. They made products that were uneconomical at a time MPG's mattered. They opened the door to the Japanese, and they ran with it, and are still continuing to run with it.

 

[coobie]

Hey you can have your opinion on whatever you want, and I can have mine. Mine personally is that I do not liike ie. hate unions. Your feelings cant be different, and quite frankly I dont care. But dont ever say I need a few more years before I run my chops, thats BS, I will say whatever I feel like saying, and if you dont like it, dont read my post.

Boo-hoo :{ Grow up. coobie :-laf

 

[MFalkinham]

Acorrding to the Wall Street Journal, GM's health plan for the workers, costs an extra $1500 per car. Medicine to fight obecity and smoking alone, costs them over $200 million!!!

The cost of health insurance for current employees and retirees is what is dragging GM down. Under their current agreement with the UAW, which ends in 2007, the GM employees contribute almost nothing to the cost of their premiums or prescriptions. I don't think it is unreasonable for GM to ask the union membership to pick up a larger share of these costs. The salad days of 100% coverage are over everywhere else, except maybe for Congress. Having the employees pay percentages of their premium and deductables will cut down on the wasteful habits that always seem to exist when the employer pays for everything.

 

[Coolslice]

coolslice says " do we remember Gremlin, Pinto, Pacer, need I say more ". Yep you can say more. You forgot the Datsun, Toyota cars/trucks ,from the same time, to add to your list of junk. Japanese superior . Total BS hype from foreign makers. I've got a '03 Buick Le sabre and a '03 Dodge/Cummins 2500, a real truck, that will meet or beat Jap superiority any way you want to look.

That superiorty market hype came when the Japs entered the the US market . They were competing in our small compact car market and produced the same low quality cars we did. They were the first to start making a better quality compact car but NEVER did make a full size car. They've carried that superior sales hype right on up through the years. Same BS hype Ford uses claming their truck is superior..... JIM

Oh man! :-laf I'm speechless. Market hype?? Hype doesn't last for decades. Let me ask you, how is it that the Japanese have figured out a way to sucessfully, but FALSELY "hype" their products for 30+ years in a foreign country, and we still can't see through it? If Japanese cars are so junky, why have they been consistantly outselling American cars for years? Is it because after 30 years, Americans are too dumb to figure out that we are falling for "market hype", OR are we showing the results of what we have learned about American vs. Japanese over the last 3 decades?



I'll give you the 2500 Ram, because it doesn't have any competition in the 3/4 ton class... yet. The 03 Buick, no... I guess if you are strictly going on engine power, then yes American cars may hold the advantage, but when you look at the big picture like build quality, reliability, resale, ect. . that where American cars show their weak side. I guess it all comes down to what people want from a car or truck.

 

[biggieou]

I'll give you the 2500 Ram, because it doesn't have any competition in the 3/4 ton class... yet. The 03 Buick, no... I guess if you are strictly going on engine power, then yes American cars may hold the advantage, but when you look at the big picture like build quality, reliability, resale, ect. . that where American cars show their weak side. I guess it all comes down to what people want from a car or truck.

To build on that, if your Buick is so great why are there rumors that Buick is the next nameplate to get the axe???? Not because they build a better quality product then their Japanese counterparts thats for sure.



And Coobie, you have just proven your intelligence level. I'm not going to come DOWN to your level, because you will just beat me with experience :-laf

 

[kah68]

Guys,



I wrote this post to express my views about how the big 3 treat us as customers. Customer service has gone out the door. The days of fixing the customers product because it ' should ' work has become a debate of dollars and cents. Please take your union and exec. views and start a new post about it , this is not why i wrote this piece.

 

[Palmtree]

Ah. . ! One second... . my new Dodge truck says it is made in Mexico... Hellloooo. Have you looked at a GM truck lately dude? There the ugliest piece a crap i've ever seen come out of GM, ever. That's why they are in deep finincial dodo. There products are junk. The first thing these companies do when they have financial trouble is to blame the workers, every time. Yea, and how about the bonuses they pay executives. . even when the companies are losing there butts.

Come on guys. . don't blame people who are fighting to make a living out there.

 

[DSpencer]

By fighting to make a living do you mean working hard and only wanting a decent wage? I don't think so. The fighting is through the union to get easier work.

This is not just a knock about people who are in union jobs either. I work in a union job and most people who work there are just regular people. The work is for the most part non competitive and the way to make more money in my job is complain more, slow down, file grievances, and lie lie lie lie lie.

Reality Objectivity Fairness are just a few of the words that are not in my Unions dictionary.



PS... . I once heard a firing line discussion between leaders of business and unions on the subject of unions. The business side sited a study showing unions being paid 30 percent more than non union workers for the same work. The Union leaders fired back by siting another study which said it was only 25 percent... ... ... Now that is point!



David

 

[J&LRam]

You folks can drive your Jap cars/trucks with your superior hype if you want to believe that BS. I'll keep driven my good ol' American made cars/trucks that give me 180000-22000 mi each, of service from them over the last 50+ years. Wife and I drove seperatly off and on over the years and had up to 110 mi a day commute. We had to have a car that we could depend on and the Jap cars didn't hold up. Jap cars were to small to use to car pool six men 100 plus miles a day plus at times over the years guys that drove them didn't have a dealer net work that had parts. Maybe in the last ten years or so they might have the parts shortage problems fixed but before that most folks that drove them were city folks that didn't car pool or drive long distances.

Jap superiorty is pure BS marketing hype pushed by folks that believe it. This old American don't... ... ..... JIM

 

[Coolslice]

You folks can drive your Jap cars/trucks with your superior hype if you want to believe that BS. I'll keep driven my good ol' American made cars/trucks that give me 180000-22000 mi each, of service from them over the last 50+ years. Wife and I drove seperatly off and on over the years and had up to 110 mi a day commute. We had to have a car that we could depend on and the Jap cars didn't hold up. Jap cars were to small to use to car pool six men 100 plus miles a day plus at times over the years guys that drove them didn't have a dealer net work that had parts. Maybe in the last ten years or so they might have the parts shortage problems fixed but before that most folks that drove them were city folks that didn't car pool or drive long distances.

Jap superiorty is pure BS marketing hype pushed by folks that believe it. This old American don't... ... ..... JIM

I can respect that, however it sounds to me like your opinion of Japanese vehicles is rooted is the 70's. I can assure you that your reasoning may have held true in 1975, but it holds no water at all now, and hasn't for many years. I'm not telling anyone which car they should buy, but it just isn't right to degrade other people and other cars when you have absolutely no experience from which to back up your "hype" theory. I'm still wondering how all of it is BS hype, but we people continue to buy Japanese cars one after another AFTER we have mostly driven American cars for years?? It can't be all hype, and no personal experience. If there actually is this huge conspiracy to promote Japanese cars, why does it seem to be Americans that are the ones doing it? It was just last year that a top Ford exec. came out and said that their number one selling car was inferior to its Japanese counterparts. I doubt he was trying to "hype" other cars as much as he was trying to push his own company to build a better product.

 

[Steve Graham]

If you want to find out what problems are, but a Jeep. Been there, done that.



Steve G.