Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting M1-a

[HHhuntitall]

The Ruger #1 Single Shot is available in 6. 5 Creedmoor!!!!!!! That would be my favorite! GregH

One shot, one kill..... :-laf But I want 20 shots and 20 kills, when it comes to hogs!!!!Oo.



I checked the bolt lockup, and it looks just right. I indexed both, and check the rotation when closed... it looks fine. I found a really sharp edge on the reverse side of one of the locking lugs... I'm gonna try to polish it off, maybe that'll help on my brass.



I know with the Lapua brass, I can usually get 4-5 reloads before the necks crack or the primer pockets get looser than i like. There's always the few that get nicked or dinged really hard when ejected, probably 1 in 30-40. The ARs are a lot harder on the brass, I usually only get 2-3 reloadings in the . 260 w Remington brass. Annealing helps a lot with the Remington brass, as it gets really brittle after two firings, and almost every piece has to be bent back straight after firing, as it hits the ejection post and dings the crud out of it!! Then it has to be mic-ed, and if it's not up to spec, well... hello scrap pile... I've recently reformed some . 243 lapua brass, we'll see if it hold up any better.

 

[GHarman]

Rattle Battle?

HHhuntitall, Yep that would be a kick! 20 Rounds, twenty dead hogs! I reckon an M-60 mounted on a swivel, on a tractor would be a real "mowing machine" fer hogs:-laf. I certainly believe there is a place in anyone's arsenal for the "proper tools for the job"! GregH

 

[The patriot]

You guys got to stop this.

Now I want an 6. 5 Creedmoor and I'm a DPMS dealer. That dont make things any easier.

Theyre now selling uppers for this cal. I may need to get one and do a DIY lower for it.

They used to sell only complete rifles in Creedmoor. :{:{:{

 

[HHhuntitall]

You guys got to stop this.

Now I want an 6. 5 Creedmoor and I'm a DPMS dealer. That dont make things any easier.

Theyre now selling uppers for this cal. I may need to get one and do a DIY lower for it.

They used to sell only complete rifles in Creedmoor. :{:{:{

... ... and the problem is?!?!?! I'm not following... . I've got a 260 with a Krieger barrel that loves 120 Noslers or Sierra MKs..... and soon, I hope to have a . 243!! 1:8 twist for 107gr Sierra MKs!!!:foamATtheMouth: In AR platforms, that is... . I'd also love to do a Garand in 280 Remington Improved!!!!!!! :foamATtheMouthandGointoConvulsions:

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, How do you overcome the potential high gas port pressures in an M1 Garand conversion? A smaller gas port and/or reduced loads? A bent operating rod kinda puts a "kink":-laf in yer shooting!! Remember, that impulse gas system was designed around a chamber pressure of ~48,000 PSI with a specific pressure slope deterioration and port pressure range. If you are running 60,000PSI+ chamber presure with slow burning powders, you will bend that op rod, for sure! GregH

 

[GHarman]

Ps

I like that "foamatthemouthandgointoconvulsions":-lafOo. ! I plan on doing that at the Colorado Gun Collectors Show, this weekend! GregH

 

[The patriot]

HH I dont have the funds for this. That's my problem.

BTW My brother has an AR in 243. It's a freakin laser. It shoots . 3's with 107's and his handload.
The only thing he's done with it is a Jard 3lb trigger.

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHhuntitall, How do you overcome the potential high gas port pressures in an M1 Garand conversion? A smaller gas port and/or reduced loads? A bent operating rod kinda puts a "kink":-laf in yer shooting!! Remember, that impulse gas system was designed around a chamber pressure of ~48,000 PSI with a specific pressure slope deterioration and port pressure range. If you are running 60,000PSI+ chamber presure with slow burning powders, you will bend that op rod, for sure! GregH

I don't know, I haven't gotten to that point yet. The one I bought for the job ended up shooting sub-moa at 100yds open sighted, so it was really hard to unscrew the barrel... ... . I was thinking a larger gas cylinder and maybe a longer stroke, and of course a new bolt and machined op-rod. I think the larger gas port would absorb and delay bolt reaction... . I "think"... . Pressure is a problem, and may make the whole thing unfeasable... . and they may nail the lid down before I get it done... .

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, OK! Lets talk pressure effects. Larger (piston) operating rod end, more slap on the operating rod. A shorter op rod would be more rigid. A smaller and adjustable gas port may be an answer(interchangeable orifices). I wonder if anyone has done actual pressure measurements at the orifice, using . 30 caliber M-1 Ball and M-2 Ball ammo? If you could link orifice size to impulse pressure/volume, you may be able to correctly size an orifice range for a higher port pressure?

I had a Garand, many years ago that shot like a bolt gun! It was amazing! 46 Gr. H-4895 and the 168 Gr. Sierra was a DINGER!!! GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHhuntitall, OK! Lets talk pressure effects. Larger (piston) operating rod end, more slap on the operating rod. A shorter op rod would be more rigid. A smaller and adjustable gas port may be an answer(interchangeable orifices). I wonder if anyone has done actual pressure measurements at the orifice, using . 30 caliber M-1 Ball and M-2 Ball ammo? If you could link orifice size to impulse pressure/volume, you may be able to correctly size an orifice range for a higher port pressure?

I had a Garand, many years ago that shot like a bolt gun! It was amazing! 46 Gr. H-4895 and the 168 Gr. Sierra was a DINGER!!! GregH

... shorter op rod, hence the longer cylinder and stroke... . and would absorb more pressure. And an adjustable gas port would be a must, IMHO. Being mechanically actuated by the gas, it SHOULD be easier to manage than the blowback operation on the ARs... . I'm sure there are a lot of tests on the ball ammo and pressure curves. I'd also bet a bunch of the Military class shooters would know a little about it. I see a lot of them that use . 308Win in their garands... . That has the higher pressure requirements... . hmmmm. I wonder how well these adjustable systems work in the Garand?!? SCHUSTER : ADJUSTABLE GAS SYSTEM - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools - BROWNELLS



Mine really likes the 150 Nosler Ballistic tips..... I think it's 46gr of 4895, too!!

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, The 7. 62 NATO round pressure specs are ~50,000 PSI, not far off from GI . 30 M-1 and M-2 at 47-48,000 PSI. With similar powder and pressures with equal bullets, the operating characteristics would be the same, as we know from the many . 308 conversions? Hodgdons maximum pressures are within a few thousand pounds of the original design requirement and easily tweeked to match pressures. Now the Civilian version, the . 308 Winchester is loaded to 60,000 PSI. That's a whole different MULE, there! The confusion is with the NATO loadings. The 5. 56 NATO is loaded to 60,000 PSI where its civilian cousin is loaded to 50,000 PSI. That being said, you may need to consider the M-1A/M/14 style short stroke piston arrangement along with the adjustable gas port. Or possibly adapt a Browning design gas system from the civvie BAR? Those commonly operate with 60,000 PSI cartridges. I see it as a hybrid conversion if you are going to push the pressure envelope. What do ya think?

Greg

 

[AABEN]

Hmm, drop in fit? I'm not sure about that, Greg. I've never seen a stock an M1A would drop in and shoot very well in... ... without a little work. It certainly looks lighter than some of the other options out there, though!! I've got a Troy Modular, as well, and it's a bear. It takes away the handling ability of the rifle. If you carry it all day, it'll make a man out of you!!! I can't say it shoots much better than with the McMillan stock I had on it, either. I was really dissapointed in it, especially for the money. I intend to take my Troy stock off of mine as soon as I find the time. Anyone interested?



Yes, and I left out that the CMP "Leased" out their M1As. I did mention they were recalled, though. I know this as some of my friends have been issued ones that have been refitted by the base amorers, and it's said some of them are tested before they're refitted, and may be issued "as is. " I'd wager those were the ones with Kreiger SS barrels some match shooters were using from Raton, NM, and Langley, VA. They were thoroughly upset to lose their rifles, but that was part of the agreement.....



I've got a real problem with mine at the moment. I keep getting flyers when it loads from the left side of the magazine..... seems the bullets are getting scarred from the loading ramp or magazine. If I load it single shot, it shoots very well..... still will knock a hog down very quickly... .

Try a new MAG or adj your.

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHhuntitall, The 7. 62 NATO round pressure specs are ~50,000 PSI, not far off from GI . 30 M-1 and M-2 at 47-48,000 PSI. With similar powder and pressures with equal bullets, the operating characteristics would be the same, as we know from the many . 308 conversions? Hodgdons maximum pressures are within a few thousand pounds of the original design requirement and easily tweeked to match pressures. Now the Civilian version, the . 308 Winchester is loaded to 60,000 PSI. That's a whole different MULE, there! The confusion is with the NATO loadings. The 5. 56 NATO is loaded to 60,000 PSI where its civilian cousin is loaded to 50,000 PSI. That being said, you may need to consider the M-1A/M/14 style short stroke piston arrangement along with the adjustable gas port. Or possibly adapt a Browning design gas system from the civvie BAR? Those commonly operate with 60,000 PSI cartridges. I see it as a hybrid conversion if you are going to push the pressure envelope. What do ya think?

Greg

I actually was thinking of the M1A style piston... it's much easier to find after market parts for. As for the BAR, your right back to the same problems with the AR. I don't think pressures on the gas system will be much of a problem, especially when at the longer end of the barrel. I think pressures on the breech face will be the tale of time. Remember when the Mini-14s were having cracked bolt faces? And in Garands original designs, he tested the . 276? and the . 30Gvt', but the . 30 didn't get to be tested fully, as it developed cracks in the bolt during testing. It later was fixed, obviously, but what will the bolt lugs take? The . 280 has a lot higher pressure curve than the . 30 Gv't... ... know of any sources for pressure tests on the Garands?!?!



. 276 Pederson!!! That's what the initial chambering was!! The . 30 won because of General MacAuthor, and his desire to use the extensive . 30 ball ammo stashes!! But the . 276 was close in dimensions to the 7x57, only a little shorter. A light loaded . 280 would be similar in pressure to that, but the . 280imp is where I run into the Pandora's box!!

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, Well, ya only have 2 locking lugs, but the heat treatment of the M1 Garand is a lot more sophisticated than given credit. That bolt, slapping the rear of the receiver would also concern me, with a high pressure conversion. I'll have to dig out "Hatchers Notebook" and see what his take on the Garand was. I think he was right there with the testing. GregH

PS Sorry, I miss-read your post about the feeding issue from the LEFT side of the magazine!! GAD, old timers disease, AGAIN!!

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHhuntitall, Well, ya only have 2 locking lugs, but the heat treatment of the M1 Garand is a lot more sophisticated than given credit. That bolt, slapping the rear of the receiver would also concern me, with a high pressure conversion. I'll have to dig out "Hatchers Notebook" and see what his take on the Garand was. I think he was right there with the testing. GregH



PS Sorry, I miss-read your post about the feeding issue from the LEFT side of the magazine!! GAD, old timers disease, AGAIN!!

Yeah, you know, the more I read into this, the more I think it's not a feasible project. I've already got a Remington 740 tore apart to make a barrel for, not to mention my . 243 AR project that's sat for 6 months!! If you find Hatchers Notebook, let me know what his thoughts are, though.



It's the same reason I've never liked the Mini-14... accurizing was a constant battle, and different altitudes would cause you a world of irritation!! I guess I should look at the shooters around, and see what they're doing. There's probably a reason no one's done it yet... ...



... . always a better mousetrap!!

 

[GHarman]

How about this?

HHhuntitall, I was engaging my brain housing group(yeah I know, its kinda smoky in here with all them burning dust bunnies:-laf)! The Browning idea is not so far fetched. The "Safari" model with the boss is gas operated. It comes chambered in . 25/06 and . 270 Win. . A 280 IMP would not be impossible with this as the platform and the BOSS works great as an accuracy tuner!

What I see is a re-bore/re-rifle of an existing barrel. The gas block looks like it may be welded onto the barrel. ( it could also be forged integral with the barrel?) Usually an electron beam welding process is used for this application with no filler metal.

Heres the basis;

BAR Safari, , Browning Firearms Product



This manual shows the short stroke gas piston on page 18;

http://media.browning.com/pdf/om/bar_98355_om_s.pdf



a schmetic drawing;

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/schematics/browning_bar_safari_light_sch.pdf



These rifles do shoot quite well. Just retrofitting one with a 20 round 1918 BAR magazine will be the trickOo. ! GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHhuntitall, I was engaging my brain housing group(yeah I know, its kinda smoky in here with all them burning dust bunnies:-laf)! The Browning idea is not so far fetched. The "Safari" model with the boss is gas operated. It comes chambered in . 25/06 and . 270 Win. . A 280 IMP would not be impossible with this as the platform and the BOSS works great as an accuracy tuner!

What I see is a re-bore/re-rifle of an existing barrel. The gas block looks like it may be welded onto the barrel. ( it could also be forged integral with the barrel?) Usually an electron beam welding process is used for this application with no filler metal.

Heres the basis;

BAR Safari, , Browning Firearms Product



This manual shows the short stroke gas piston on page 18;

http://media.browning.com/pdf/om/bar_98355_om_s.pdf



a schmetic drawing;

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/schematics/browning_bar_safari_light_sch.pdf



These rifles do shoot quite well. Just retrofitting one with a 20 round 1918 BAR magazine will be the trickOo. ! GregH

I've actually owned several of the BARs. I had one in a 7mm Rem Mag I actually shot some, but it hated heavier bullets. I adjusted everything I could, I guess the barrel wasn't that good. The gas system was a little more complicated than I cared for, but maybe that allowed the flexibility to handle a more deversified loading..... as for the locking lugs, I never noticed if it was screwed on or made in. Electron Beam Welding? Is that like Electron Discharge Machining?



I know they handle the big loads with no problems that I know of. The bolt was assembled similar to the Remington 740/7400, 760/7600. Looking at it, I don't think there was any way to really square the lugs on that baby!! You know, the Remington Autos are chambered in 280 from the factory, and are around $3-400 floating around the shows... ... and there are 12 round mags floating around... . I had one in . 270 that functioned great, but just su**ed accuracy wise. I didn't shoot it much, as it was next to impossible to hit a coyote over 400 yards..... :{

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, I wonder how the BOSS, retrofitted to the Remington Autoloader barrel would work? That barrel whipping about with all that moving mechanism under the barrel would require an accurizing process at a minimum.

EB welding uses a high energy stream of electrons generated by running very high voltage(175,000V for example) across a Tantalum filiment. The Beam can be focused or varied by magnetic fields. In its focused state it will punch a hole through 6" of steel, straight away! The welds are done in a deep vacuum. Commonly 1X10 (exp)-5 to -7 TORR, where 760MM of Mercury (TORR) is atmospheric pressure at sea level.

Depth of penetration and weld geometry can be controlled by attenuation and focus of the stream of electrons.

Check out the block on the bottom of a TC Contender barrel, look at the weld. Its an EB weld.

EB welding is not a home shop welders tool. The original Leybold Heraeus and Hamilton Standard equipment cost close to $750,000 for a welder plus all the infrastructure to power it and achieve the deep vacuum and service it. They are commonly found in the aerospace and defense industries. I did some EB welding, many years ago. GregH

 

[GHarman]

EB welder

HHhuntitall, I operated and maintained a machine similar to this one as an R&D Technician and production welder. GregH



History of PTR Precision Technologies Electron Beam Welding (EBW)

 

[HHhuntitall]

Wow, that's a neat process... . I've seen where it's been used, especially in the heavy iron equipment. Expensive, but the ability to weld such heavy plate, and change the focus and width of the beam... . I've used a sinker EDM machine... we used a kerosene mixture to submerge it when cutting gears, parts, and whatever else we needed to cut internally... . I would think that process would work well to cut rotating lugs... . how are they cut in the Remington's?



As for the Boss systems, I'm not that big a fan. If you shoot one of those, you stand alone, because no one else wants to shoot next to you!!! I'd rather go for a little more barrel weight for rigidity and temperature stability. And if you used good barrel stock, that wasn't cold hammer forged, it would probably be more rigid. You know more about steel composition than I do. Chromolly or Chrome Vanadium would be better in that case, I would think, than SS, just for the harder steel. Thoughts?