"MAKING" a dealer honor warranty...

[Gary - K7GLD]

Not sure if this is the right forum, but it IS primarily related to added accessories and their effect on warranties...



QUESTION:



Has ANYONE here successfull challenged the service departments intended position of VOIDING a portion of your truck's warranty due to aftermarket add-ons? I'm talking about a SERIOUS "we're NOT gonna fix it under warranty", or detailed warranty refusal documentation from a dealership?



Reason I ask, is because of the many here who LOVE to quote that Magnussen-Moss bill as tho' it's some "magic wand" or battering ram that will turn arbitrary service managers into quivering bowls of Jello as soon as "MM" is mentioned to them!



These well-meaning folks seem to think and suggest that all we need do is chant "Magnussen-Moss", and the service manager will IMMEDIATELY roll on the shop floor in instant anguish, begging for mercy and forgiveness...



If some here HAVE been able to successfully reverse a serious, *formal* warranty refusal, tell us what steps it took, how long, and what you went thru in time. money and frustration to make it happen!



*I* am betting there are precious FEW successful MM challenges, and that LOTS of blood-sweating anguish was involve by the vehicle owner in the process!



C'mon someone, prove me WRONG!

 

[merryman]

Gary;

I think you are dead on. If you can't get the work done by gentle persuasion, you will be in for a loooong expensive fight if you try to force it with the MM act; when you go to see your lawyer and tell him what you have in mind, he/she will most likely want a very large retainer because he/she will know that it will be a long road.

By the way, I was expecting to see you up here last week????



Vaughn

 

[Briar Hopper]

the law has no teeth

The Magnusen-Moss Act is like the Americans with Disabilities Act. It has no teeth. The little guy can't beat the system. Money and/or fame is power, and it takes power to get things done. Going up against corporate America is futile.

I've been this route with Ford Motor Company. I had a truck that 27 visits to the dealer did not fix. It's why I'm in a Dodge now, and also why I drove it the same week I got it, over to show the owner of the Ford dealership how he'd lost $$$$. Five others in my family subsequently did the same thing. He called my house, left a message saying he got the point, would I please stop?

Arbitration? Legal action? hahahahaha ! You pays your money and takes your chances when you buy a vehicle.

I chose my Cummins Ram, because as a mechanic, it looked like the sturdiest, strongest , and easiest truck to work on.

There was once a time when I didn't have the experience and ability that I have now, and I remember it quite well. One never forgets a shredded wallet and a reamed sphincter.

The worst part is, when you're slaving away for some other segment of Corporate America to pay for all this, you don't have time to try to track down an honest, skilled mechanic, and a reliable shop...

I'm off my soapbox now... I'll second Gary's wish to see somebody post on here, somebody that has actually held these heartless buzzards' feet to the fire...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Vaughn - I appreciate your response - it means a lot from a former "bench-sitter"!



Sorry about last week - our Oregon visit got unexpectedly cut short, and we didn't get any further north than Brookings. We are considering selling our California home and relocating, possibly somewhere up near your area - and that trip was to check out property availability and price. We found all we needed to know in Brookings, so returned home early. Yes, we WILL be putting our place on the market - who knows, we might eventually be neighbors!

 

[MoparToYou]

Back in '97 I owned a '97 Jeep Wrangler, in which I changed the axle ratio from the stock 3. 73:1 to 4. 10:1, and I also installed a Detroit Locker in both differentials. My rear axle's outer axle seal started leaking a few months later, so I took it to the dealer to have it fixed under warranty. The outer axle seals had not been touched by the work in the differentials so I figured it should be covered by warranty.



The next day when I picked up the Jeep with a new axle seal in place they told me that the warranty coverage had been declined because the mechanic that had installed my locker had not filled the differential completely with oil, so that is why I had burned the outer bearing, and the seal had been subsequently destroyed and then started to leak. I spoke with the person that had done the locker install and he asked if there had been ANY oil in the differential. When told there was, he said he had filled it all the way. He openly admitted that on one previous occaision he had forgot to put oil in a differential, but didn't see any way mine would have ended up half full. It would have either been full, or empty, but not halfway. His opinion was that because the axle seal had been leaking for several hundred miles before I noticed it, that was the reason the differential was half full, and not because it had only been half filled to begin with.



With this information I went back to the dealership and "raised holy hell". I had purchased three vehicles from them that year, and I made it absolutely clear that if they did not cover it under warranty that I would not be purchasing another vehicle from them, ever. This led to the general manager of the dealership getting involved, and then the owner of the dealership. A near shouting match ensued, and finally they covered it under warranty. I never mentioned the MM act, just that they would loose one of their best customers forever if they pissed me off any more with their bogus warranty declined crap.



You know, I haven't bought anything from them since that day. Looks like they lost a customer anyway.



MoparToYou.

 

[JHerrlich]

These well-meaning folks seem to think and suggest that all we need do is chant "Magnussen-Moss", and the service manager will IMMEDIATELY roll on the shop floor in instant anguish, begging for mercy and forgiveness...

And we shall say nee to you...



Sorry guys, couldn't help it.

 

[Terry]

Last time I had a problem with a dealer and my warrarty it was with my Ford. The dealer told me NO, the zone office told me NO.

So I called Ford customer service and told them the details, I was polite but firm the clerk took down the information and then asked if I had anything else to say.

I said yes tell the people in charge I bought this truck new and I will be buying another new truck next year and if Ford doesn't take care of my problem my new truck wont be a Ford.

Two days later the dealer called me back and asked "what will it take to make you happy".

 

[merryman]

The approaches taken by Mopartoyou and by Terry are probably the most effective; to try to do through a MM lawsuit would only be appropriate if (1) you really wanted to prove a point and you have lots of time AND money or (2) some other deep pocket is willing to go all the way to prove their point, i. e. a vendor such as an oil co. or filter mfgr. and will either provide the atty. or pay your atty. and his expenses.



Vaughn

 

[David Muench]

Originally posted by MoparToYou

Back in '97 I owned a '97 Jeep Wrangler, in which I changed the axle ratio from the stock 3. 73:1 to 4. 10:1, and I also installed a Detroit Locker in both differentials. My rear axle's outer axle seal started leaking a few months later, so I took it to the dealer to have it fixed under warranty. The outer axle seals had not been touched by the work in the differentials so I figured it should be covered by warranty.

Gotta be upfront here - there is no way you had the gears changed and a locker installed without touching those axle seals. As the owner of a pretty modified '97 Wrangler myself I've done more than my share of work to the axles (among other things). My current setup is 4. 10's with an ARB up front, lockright in the back, and the back has a full warn full floater conversion with disc brakes. To swap the gears or install a detroit, you need to slide the axle shafts out (some). Every time I do that I worry that I'll trash the seals in the end of the axle. I'm on my second set in my Warn setup already.



Not trying to start an argument here of course, but it probably wasn't the dealer's fault in this case.

 

[MoparToYou]

OF COURSE you slide the axle shaft out about 3" on each side when installing the locker, but the seal itself is NOT removed or replaced, and in no way should it be damaged by sliding the shaft out a few inches. And for what it's worth, early model '97 Wranglers with the Dana 44 axle had frequent axle seal leaks, and Chrysler updated that seal mid-year in '97 to a seal that was less prone to leaks. Chrysler had a problem with those seals leaking, and they knew it. Their was no way the dealership would have been given ANY hassle from Chrysler by replacing that seal under warranty. The dealership just didn't want to do it because they didn't think they had to, because the Jeep was modified. I used my warranty to replace the entire auto transmission on that Jeep a few months later, after I took the Jeep to Hollister California to compete in Four Wheeler Magazine's Top Truck Challenge. I finished second place, but broke the transmission in the process. You can refer to the November '97 issue of Four Wheeler Magazine to see the Jeep if you want. Now Chrysler did have EVERY RIGHT to deny warranty coverage on the transmission, because the dealer knew full well it had failed during a competition event. It was a different dealer though, and they never complained; in fact, they never even brought it up. Instead they just said thanks for letting us work on your Jeep.



Warranty coverage is up to the dealer, not so much Chrysler. If you've got a lousy dealer then you are screwed. And THAT is why I have never gone back to the first dealer that tried to deny coverage of that axle seal. Sure it's only a $15 part, but it was the principle of the matter. And if they were the type of dealer that tries to deny coverage every chance they get, then screw them, I'll take my business elsewhere. If EVERYONE did that we wouldn't have to put up with so much bull**** from dealership service managers. Something to think about.



Oh, and if you want to see my "current" Jeep then just look on page 80 of this months (October) 4-Wheel Drive & Sport Utility Magazine. Their is a four page write-up on my '00 Jeep Wrangler.



MoparToYou

 

[MoparToYou]

Almost forgot one other "issue" with that first dealer. The Jeep had developed a leak that presented with a few drops of oil always being present at the base of the flex plate cover between the engine's oil pan and the auto transmission, when the Jeep was only a few days old. I had taken it to the first dealer I mentioned above, and they had said "the rear main seals on these engines just need time to seat before they seal completely". Sounded like BS to me, but I gave it a chance and drove the Jeep for another few weeks, and the leak started getting worse, with now a few drops of oil on the ground after each time I parked it. I took it back to the dealer and they kept it for three days, telling me they had "replaced the rear main seal" of the engine, when I picked it up. This was way before the axle seal leak problem, which was before the transmission failure at Top Truck Challenge. Anyway, when I got the Jeep home from having the "rear main seal replaced", it was leaking JUST LIKE BEFORE. Their work had done absolutely nothing to fix the problem. I took it back the next day and got the same "these seals just need time to seat" BS that I had gotten originally. In other words they wouldn't fix it, period. This incident may be partly why I had a come-apart when they declined coverage of the $15 axle seal later on.



Anyway, months later when I took the Jeep to the second dealer to have the transmission checked after the Top Truck Challenge competition, they found that one of the nuts that hold the return line from the transmission cooler, onto the transmission housing, was loose. That is what had been leaking, and the fluid had been working its way to the lowest point, the bottom of the flex plate cover. When they checked on their Chrylser computer there was absolutely no record of my Jeep ever having had a rear main seal replaced, so the first dealership had kept my Jeep for three days, and had said they replaced the rear main seal, but in fact had done absolutely nothing. Now that was (is) a LOUSY dealership.



Just goes to show, if you've got a lousy dealership, GO ELSEWHERE!

 

[David Muench]

I haven't flipped through my back issues yet, but. .



Phil?



I remember your TJ (the blue one, right)? I seem to remember your name is Phil. Nice job at TTC, being a very early TJ owner myself it was great to see a TJ do so well so early on.



Got a question for you - I'm planning on switching to a TF999 auto from my POS AX-15 stick in my TJ. . Sounds like you have the auto. Have you figured out a solution to raising the vent behind the torque converter up high for mud/water?

 

[MoparToYou]

You know, I went through water deeper than the body sides, and about six inches up onto the side of the hard top, with that '97 TJ while competing at Top Truck. And when we pulled the transmission after the event no water had gotten in through the vent tube. I figured I would never be in water that deep again so never really looked into moving the vent tube. Sorry, can't help you on that one.



Phil.

 

[Matt S]

Mopartoyou,

You definitely have a bad dealer. However, anytime the seals are disturbed they should be replaced. I would be interested in knowing where the dealer is so as to not give them my business.

 

[MoparToYou]

The dealer is Tri State Motors, in Cedar City, Utah. They have a truly horrendous service dept.



Oh, and I've installed somthing like a dozen or so lockers in various Jeeps and trucks over the years, and I've never had an axle seal leak because of a locker installation, exept with that Jeep. And a number of people that owned that model Jeep had the same seal start leaking despite never having touched it, that's why Jeep upgraded the seal mid-year. Remeber, this Jeep was a BRAND NEW vehicle, that did not have old crusty seals that would be likely to leak if disturbed. I seriously doubt that if you took a Jeep to the dealers service dept, with only a few hundred miles on the odometer, and they had to pull the diff cover, unbolt the axle flange, and slide the axle out a few inches, and then back in again to effect some repair, that they would replace that seal. We're talking about the seal at the end of the axle tube, although I'm sure you knew that.

 

[Tilesetter Too]

i haven't had any problems with the Dodge, but Ford was kind enough to screw me. They had a problem with the 98 4. 6 engine with detonation. We ran 92octane and the engine still pinged under load. Ford's solution to that was to reprogam the computer to retard engine timing to -4 deg below TDC The plugs are firing before the piston even gets to the top of the cylinder. it killed our gas mileage by 3-4mpg and the car lost 30-40hp. It is now unsafe to try to pass without getting the transmission to double kick to second to get the rpms way up to get past the computer modification(it cuts out and reverts to normal at a certain rpm) and then the car takes off like a rocket. The computer fix was done at 35,500 miles. Warranty ran out the next week. After we complained about the power loss, the dealership showed us exactly what was wrong (good dealer). Contact with Ford Customer service proved very unsatisfactory. Basically they told us thanks for calling, we'll make a note that you didn't like the recall fix. Oh yeah, the computer fix was a Ford Factory Recall. They knew that something was wrong with the engine and put a band-aid fix on it to get customers out of warranty.

To shorten the story, no repair for their junk repair. We will NEVER buy Ford again for any reason. I am a vindictive SOB and I WILL mail Ford the picture and purchase order for every new non-ford vehicle we purchase for the next forty years. We average one new vehicle every two years. I just want to make sure they know that for the $2000? or less it would have taken to fix the vehicle right, they will miss out on the profit of at least 20 vehicles. Before this, the last 8 out of ten vehicles I have owned have been Ford. Never again... I hope they enjoy my mail over years. SORRY this is so long.

Shawn

 

[Mopar-muscle]

MM



tilesetter , you thought ford was bad , wait till you need a warranty repair from dodge



as far as the timing thing , i think what they did was retard the timingto 4 degrees AFTER the piston hit TDC of the compression stroke . advancing the timing to 4 degrees before it hits TDC would make the pinging worse . that would have been advancing the timing , making it fire while the mix is still being compressed is better , i can't explain why as i don't know the exact engineering aspect , my toying with HP gas applications , mopars in specfic , we set the total advance to about 38 degrees BEFORE TDC ... don't know what this has to do with diesels but i thought i'd just straighten out your confusion as to what they did .

 

[Gumbs77]

warranty ??? Whast that?







Sorry, The only warranty that i get is 50' or the end of the driveway



Jim

 

[Tilesetter Too]

Mopar-muscle,

I'm not trying to insult you but I believe you mistated yourself a little. If you set timing to 38deg before TDC you would be setting the combustion of your gas against the compressive forces of your piston. You would be trying to expand and contract at the same time. That is extremely destructive. Normally the spark fires after TDC to help force the piston down thus making your power. I know advancing the timing too far is also destructive but I'm not quite sure why. Maybe some motorhead on the board would be happy to enlighten us both. Once again, I'm not intending to insult anyone.

as for the ford, the service manager was sitting next to me in the vehicle as we were going down the road. I watched the the timing go from a positive of 34degrees after TDC to -4 Deg below TDC. There was literally a 40 degree swing in the timing. I'm no drag racer but thats way too much. I think normal is like + or - 10 degrees in either direction depending on load, not 40 degrees in one direction.

Anybody on the Board a real motorhead and have some insight???? somebody has to have a better opinion than an amature schmoe like me.

Shawn

 

[NVR FNSH]

Tilesetter Too,

Normaly static timing (turning the distributor) is set ~4-8 deg BEFORE TDC - depends on the engine. It takes time for the spark to ignite the mixture and flame to spread - you're walking a tightrope trying to 'time' the ignition with the position of the piston and get the longest power stroke. If the ignition is set to AFTER TDC then the piston is already on its way down in the cylinder and you've lost a bit of work - force (pressure on piston) X distance. As engine RPM increases the ignition timing is dynamically advanced (springs in the distributor/electronically) more BTDC - as the piston is travelling faster and it still takes time (milliseconds?) for the mixure to be burned. Again you're walking the tightrope trying to get the most work out of the cylinder. If the ignition occurs to early (piston still coming up on the compression stroke) you get knocking.



Hope this helps.



Brian