Massive emission trouble for VW.

[MichaelOverfield]

I just wonder how they thought they could get away with it, and how did they for so long.

Well, I can make a good guess. The only way to find this is to dig into source code on the ECM, AND to verify the on-road emissions are out of specification. The cars passed certification on a dyno in a lab.

The 2014 study that found the problem (WV Univ.) was pretty involved to get the test equipment in a car, was not small feat. It involved some complex piping of the exhaust, and addition of a 2Kw generator on the VWs and 2 generators on the BMW, and enough test equipment to account for the weight of 3 passengers.

I'm quite sure the engineers at VW who concocted this scheme figured it unlikely anyone would go to those extremes, when the cars passed the in lab tests consistently. The BMW did pass both, but the VW's did not.. that set off the additional tests by EPA and CARB.. where VW kept denying there was an issue (hmm.. sounds familiar, like the HPFP problem!). Only when the EPA said no to certification on the 2016 TDI cars held in port did VW finally come clean and confess to the issue.

It is going to be a rough go of it. The study on the ability to attain emissions I think was in part due to other OEMs who make TDIs not even trying to bring them to US market and EPA certifications.. the US is HALF the NOx for even the latest most strict EU standard for NOx, US is only diesel market that is now using DEF for compliance as I understand it (might be a few in EU now too as it is proving pretty reliable, more than the LNT system). US standards don't differentiate between Diesel and Gasoline powered cars.. NOx is hard to limit in Diesel, with higher combustion temperatures, so it make is hard for any OEM to make a compliant TDI for the passenger car emissions standard in the US. VW is in big trouble, but the EPA standards are also not reasonable and need to be reviewed in my opinion. The trade of for far less CO2 and overall emissions, for slightly more NOx on the TDI seems a reasonable one, compared to the VOC emissions of gasoline, which is an issue when not even in a car, just gasoline distribution and storage has emissions issues.. but I digress.

 

[Tuesdak]

EPA Misdirection. And looks like we fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

From the above it looks like there is no reasonable way to test the 'on road emissions'. So now after the cars pass the EPA's excuse for testing the EPA wants to subject diesels to new standards. Eliminate the gray area. Road conditions vary so much that it's near impossible to test to a standard anyway.

Too bad the car maker can't stand up to the taxpayer funded EPA. IMO using our taxpayer money against us and costing us more money in wasted fuel for emissions requirements that have gone overboard and in some cases can't be reasonably met. Why bother to say your calibration is for varying road conditions? (Or whatever real reason they have.) This case may just be cheaper to cave into the EPA and pay fine - plus another emissions recall like 6.7 Cummins owners are so familiar with.

Every time I take my 1993 in for emissions I have to pass an abusive test the engine wasn't designed or certified for. I have to pass smoke Snap testing. At least AZ uses a real machine where CA is a subjective visual. That's right I have to hope the 20+ year old governor works as designed and limits the free rev RPM to under redline. I get to test the governor no less than 4 times. Then I have to hope the old parts hold up at top RPM with no load. Frequent failures of the flex plate are common. Yes, these old engines were held to NOx if anything. The amount of trouble they have with testing equipment on old engines is unreal as the "free" smoke allowed to get up to speed coats the emissions testing sensor to useless so it can't measure the free rev full RPM smoke. How useful is free rev smoke measurements - a mode of operation never used? Yeah I smoke more under full load pulling a grade when I have full fuel on.

My favorite is the surplus 6.2 /6.5 engines I buy from the Military. Each and every one of them has a UN emissions exempt sticker on them. Yeah, do as I say not as I do.

But go ahead and change or tighten the rules after the fact.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

EPA Misdirection. And looks like we fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

.

I am no fan of the EPA, an concur the tests are ridiculous, and the specifications pretty random, and not realistic.. but VW did intend to pass the lab, and have a ECM program detect the lab test and run the emissions and engine to get a pass, then run a different tune on the road. VW had admitted to doing this, so sadly the EPA has a case here, but that does not make their standards realistic or reasonable, and the testing you describe is frankly total BS.. and the is what we are getting these days, tyrannical out of control big government.

Oh, here is the study, work the read, at least the parts with charts, and pictures of the test rig... http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions-testing-light-duty-diesel-vehicles-us

And yes, the do as I say, not as I do, well that is the big gov't way of course.. maybe people are waking up finally, maybe..

 

[Wayne M.]

Thanks so much Michael, your input is fantastic.
I believe we have an out of control agency that knows no limit to itself- and without consequence!

 

[GrantP]

Is it just me or is the EPA contradicting itself? From the original article:

The EPA called the company's use of the so-called "defeat device" illegal and a threat to public health.

The EPA called on VW to fix the cars' emissions systems, but said car owners do not need to take any immediate action. The violations do not present a safety hazard and the cars remain legal to drive and sell, the EPA said.

It is a "threat to public health" but "does not present a safety hazard"...can't have it both ways.

 

[Tuesdak]

With the forced retrofits CARB is actually worse than The EPA.
2015 update: http://www.ooida.com/CourtActions/CARB/14-02.03.2015-Petitioners-Opening-Brief.pdf

 

[Wayne M.]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/the-wrath-of-volkswagens-drivers.html

Hopefully everyone can see this as a free article like I did.

 

[EGroeneveld]

Time to buy a used diesel VW now....should be cheap and the ''fix'' when ever it comes will just make it get worse mileage and have less power. (can do this if you live in an area with no emissions testing)

Side note this is really interesting....Huge World Wide company v EPA.

I think if the cars could pass the European emissions test than they should automatically be okayed for the US market. Stupid to have multiple rules.

 

[Wayne M.]

Side note this is really interesting....Huge World Wide company v EPA.

I thought similar. This really could be the line in the sand. There are some comments at the end that encourage keeping the car and heck with regs!

 

[RustyJC]

I thought similar. This really could be the line in the sand. There are some comments at the end that encourage keeping the car and heck with regs!

Precisely! If I owned a VW TDI that ran like crap and drank diesel in "EPA test" trim where it passed the NOx emissions, but ran great and produced excellent fuel efficiency in the real world, what incentive would I have to take it back for a reflash? Hey, thanks to VW's creative code cutting, it passes the required smog tests the way it sits right now. Unless the EPA comes up with some way to force the reflash on the consumers, I can see a very interesting situation developing here.

(Actually, Texas doesn't "smog" diesel vehicles as of this 5 minutes, even in EPA non-attainment areas such as Harris County {Houston}. My Ram just gets an annual safety inspection - period.)

Rusty

 

[mwilson]

Exactly. Pick one up on the cheap as a result of some disgruntled greenie dumping it because of wounded sensibilities. Bring it to Maine and hammer the living crap out of it as is.

 

[BarryG]

As one who owns a 15 golf I at this moment unsure what to think. Car has run great and gets good mileage. Not sure I would want the "fix". Where I live they do test diesel but it is just for opacity and as such don't think they would ever know if it was fixed or not and they don't seem to do a physical check of anything but then again my truck has no physical things to see. Now if the epa puts out some sort of mandate to emissions places to not pass vehicles that have not been fixed which could be accomplished by a window sticker, document from VW etc I don't see anyone getting the fix or perhaps even through the states DMV ie no fix no plates.

Now if I have to get a fix and it is detrimental to the performance and or mileage I am thinking VW has some "splainin" to do to me and as far as I am concerned may need to buy my vehicle back at original MSRP (why msrp you say, as that is what the manufacturer felt it was worth and two it is a fair amount more than I paid for it, need to get "sumthin" for my trouble right)or they face being sued for breach of contract, merchantability, fraud, and of course emotional distress caused by my unwittingly but apparently quite substantial damage to the environment (surely the full extent wont be known for years, decades, if not centuries) and all current and future generations of mankind who have or will have to deal with this ecological nightmare that VW has perpetrated on me. Am not sure how to cope with all of this guilt as well as the real physical damage I have caused mother earth. Or I could say the heck with it and keep on driving it fix or no fix.

Smart alecness aside so far been an excellent vehicle am curious to see where this goes in the end.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

As one who owns a 15 golf I at this moment unsure what to think. .

You should be fine, you have SCR (DEF) the "fix" will most likely have you use more DEF, and be a reprogram.. I doubt you see more that 1-5% tops on a MPG hit.. the non DEF, 2009 -2013 or so LNT cars are going to have issues, big time. LNT uses fuel to regenerate the catalyst bed, and MPG will go down, and more soot, more EGR.. well we know the issue on 3rd Gen Cummins.. expect same.

I'm looking at the Chevy Cruze TDI and may even buy one today and be rid of the 2012 Jetta TDI with LNT.. just can't limit driving patterns on the car like I can the truck to keep it working without issue post the "fix" that I don't think will be avoidable.. the EPA is going to pressure a by VIN account of the fix, and use your local DMV as needed. I don't see an out, other that an aftermarket tune and full or partial delete after for the LNT cars.. and only if one wishes to go there type of thing.. and those that do, I'm sure will have a flood of used cars to choose from!

In context, EPA standards are too harsh, and they are willing to use unwitting human test subjects! Far from holding the moral high ground here.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/22/epas-own-diesel-crimes-worse-than-vws/

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Side note this is really interesting....Huge World Wide company v EPA.

I think if the cars could pass the European emissions test than they should automatically be okayed for the US market. Stupid to have multiple rules.

Update for you, VW admits now it is 11 million worldwide, and they did cheat the EU and other standards as well.. so they are now not just against US EPA.. but they set aside 7.3 Billion to cover the fix and FINES on 11 million cars (only 500000 in US).. so doing math.. that is $636.36 per car, assuming no fine.. which means the customer, as usual is SCREWED royally on this.

 

[jgillott]

Not intending to always be the conspiracy theorist, but do you remember when the airbag debacle started, it was limited to Honda. Before this is all said and done, I'd be willing to bet that VW wasn't the only company using such tactics world wide.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Not intending to always be the conspiracy theorist, but do you remember when the airbag debacle started, it was limited to Honda. Before this is all said and done, I'd be willing to bet that VW wasn't the only company using such tactics world wide.

You could be correct, but the original test that started it all, included a BMW Diesel, it performed as expected, and passed. The VWs passed the dyno in the lab, then not on road, the BMW passed both.

The program to detect the test conditions was elaborate.. sensing wheel speeds and steering angle to know to run the "dyno calibration" mode in the ECM to pass the tests, then the car would go to the "road calibration" when it was not being tested.. this took intentional effort and programming to do, not so sure other OEMs would be so bold to take the HUGE risk.. but VW relies on TDI more that most other OEMs, especially in the US market.. perhaps more and unique pressure on the engineers to cheat to get a car to market..

I'll go back and see if I posted the original study, but it is quite informative.. If I did not post, I will on my next.
EDIT: ( I did post, #23 this thread.. if interested check it out, or scan and look at graphs and the pictures of the test set up for on road tests.. that alone will explain how this went on so long with out EPA or other noticing the pictures tell the story!)

 

[Wayne M.]

Michael, on the older "LNT" cars, what's the method for the extra fuel for a REGEN? Rich pre cat exhaust, or an extra injector upstream or ??
I've heard very good things about the Cruze diesel. Don't see many on the road around here- and I look!

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Michael, on the older "LNT" cars, what's the method for the extra fuel for a REGEN? Rich pre cat exhaust, or an extra injector upstream or ??
I've heard very good things about the Cruze diesel. Don't see many on the road around here- and I look!

Wayne, same as what 3rd gen Cummins used.. a post injection cycle making a rich exhaust. It is a Bosch system on VW, like the Cummins. No separate injector in the exhaust, so susceptible to fuel to oil dilution issues..

I'm very likely going to by a Cruze Diesel today, drove one last eve. It is a German/Italian engine, same OEM as the Dodge ECO diesel from what I found, and an Aisin Transmission, which has a great reputation on the Dodge trucks that have their version. Cruze has 6 spd auto only, and it has a torque converter lock up, and a neutral free wheel mode to save fuel over a conventional Torque converter, which it does use, like in the trucks.. The VW auto is a DSG, automated manual, it is also a great transmission, but for whatever reason VW in the US say NO TOWING with DSG, but the Cruze has the standard 1000lb capacity, which must mean something.

GM has not been selling the Cruze in big numbers.. but having checked one out, there is likely not good reason for this, but perhaps a brand issue and reputations. One Chevy sales guy said he figures people assume TDI means VW.. but that may well be changing now, and fast. I'd also say there has been little to no advertising that GM is even making and selling this version of Cruze, but there are selling them overseas too, and prior to 2014 when the hit the US market.

 

[Wayne M.]

I thought the Cruze Diesel was basically an Opel design. Engine and all.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

If the overall goal is to reduce fuel consumption in vehicles, how is this goal being obtained when more fuel is required to meet piddly and unrealistic emission outputs?

If vehicle A can achieves 30MPG, but vehicle B with strict emissions in place only receives 14 MPG, forgive me if I see the benefit. 30MPG means to me that the engine is operating and consuming fuel at the best possible burn rate, while vehicle B is consuming additional fuel per mile to achieve the same as vehicle A.