Max-Brake Controller

[AH64ID]

Contrary to HBarlow's perception, the proportional brake controllers start braking as soon as the brake pedal is touched. Then based on deceleration, boost, and gain the braking amount is adjusted. The initial braking is determined by an electrical signal, not the deceleration signal. Electronic signals are much faster than hydraulic ones.

Now that being said, when my P2 takes a dump I will try the Max Brake to see if the hype is worth the cost.

 

[AClayton]

Contrary to HBarlow's perception, the proportional brake controllers start braking as soon as the brake pedal is touched. Then based on deceleration, boost, and gain the braking amount is adjusted. The initial braking is determined by an electrical signal, not the deceleration signal. Electronic signals are much faster than hydraulic ones.

Now that being said, when my P2 takes a dump I will try the Max Brake to see if the hype is worth the cost.

I understand that, however, you are not grasping the concept of how much energy the electronic controller is sending back to the trailer. With the MaxBrake, the brakes are applied to the trailer proportionately to the amount of brake pedal pressure your applying to your truck brakes. The P3 or other electronic junk, is sending a pre-determined amount of current back-which is based on your setting- to the trailer brakes. Huge difference!

 

[HBarlow]

Yes, without a doubt I would.

What I would do is try to determine before purchase whether the OEM brake controller can still be disabled by the dealer computer as Domehead reported he had done two years ago. If it can be disabled by any means including cutting wires, I would have it disabled upon pre-delivery service.

Secondly, I would transfer the existing BrakeSmart I own and have owned for ten years into the new truck.

I commend Ram for offering a factory controller. I think its great to be able to buy a new truck with an OEM brake controller. I am glad Ram has made the effort. It is probably good enough for most people and in particular those who simply don't know how a pressure sensing controller performs.

But for me, as someone who tows heavy trailers when I tow and knows the difference, I am so certain of the superiority of my BrakeSmart or the MaxBrake controller, I would replace the OEM controller with it.

 

[AH64ID]

I understand that, however, you are not grasping the concept of how much energy the electronic controller is sending back to the trailer. With the MaxBrake, the brakes are applied to the trailer proportionately to the amount of brake pedal pressure your applying to your truck brakes. The P3 or other electronic junk, is sending a pre-determined amount of current back-which is based on your setting- to the trailer brakes. Huge difference!

Yes and no. Not all electronic controllers apply brakes based on a per-determined amount. Some have G meters that apply brakes based on deceleration. This isn't as smooth as reading brake fluid pressure, but is similar in design than cheaper time/energy brake controllers.

The main reason I haven't upgraded yet is the P2 brakes the trailer according to the deceleration rate, not the brake pedal. With an exhaust brake you get additional deceleration above the pedal position, the Max Brake cannot adjust for this. So it would be possible for the truck to be braking a lot harder than the trailer, which can be bad on loose traction surfaces.

 

[SnoKing]

Yes and no. Not all electronic controllers apply brakes based on a per-determined amount. Some have G meters that apply brakes based on deceleration. This isn't as smooth as reading brake fluid pressure, but is similar in design than cheaper time/energy brake controllers.

The main reason I haven't upgraded yet is the P2 brakes the trailer according to the deceleration rate, not the brake pedal. With an exhaust brake you get additional deceleration above the pedal position, the Max Brake cannot adjust for this. So it would be possible for the truck to be braking a lot harder than the trailer, which can be bad on loose traction surfaces.

So turn your exhaust brake off during those conditions. I have my exhaust brake and smart controller for TC lockup on an old style head light switch on the floor, so I can easily turn it off, like manually shifting down to 2nd or back up to 3rd. Lock to lock shifts there can be harsh!!!!

SNOKING

 

[AH64ID]

Yeah, that's just one example.

I don't like the idea of reducing trailer braking because of the exhaust brake. What I don't know is what effect it has in reality, so I am willing to try.

 

[SnoKing]

With 4400 or so pounds on the front axle of my pickup, 6000+or- on the rear axle, and 10K on two trailer axles, I do not think the exhaust and the service brakes at the same time is an issue. I however seldom have to use service brakes on hills if I select the correct gear/speed going down a hill on the exhaust brake. I am rather just middle of the line however at around 20K combined weight. SNOKING

 

[JFN]

I have a Max-brake and just finished a 2600 mile trip through Utah and Colorado, I could not tell when the trailer brakes came on as the truck and 10K fifth wheel slowed as 1 at all times, I have a Packbrake and there was no difference with it on, I didn't try with it off and don't know why one would unless you were in snow. It just works and works very well.

 

[HBarlow]

So turn your exhaust brake off during those conditions. I have my exhaust brake and smart controller for TC lockup on an old style head light switch on the floor, so I can easily turn it off, like manually shifting down to 2nd or back up to 3rd. Lock to lock shifts there can be harsh!!!!

SNOKING

The MaxBrake or BrakeSmart apply braking precisely as called for by the driver's right foot on the brake pedal, not in response to anything else. Truck and trailer braking rates are precisely matched and synchronized. If the exhaust brake or exhaust brake function of the VGT aggressively slows the truck the driver, without even thinking about it, slightly lifts his right foot applying less truck and trailer brakes. There is no need for a real brake controller to compensate for anything.

 

[AClayton]

Exactly!... . whatever the driver is thinking about doing regarding braking, the MaxBrake will synchronize the trailer brakes accordingly - and perfectly! No fancy electronic 'guesswork' built in. If I use my exhaust brake, I actually prefer the option of not having the trailer brakes applied unless I have the need to suppliment with my service brakes... . which in turn will directly synchronize trailer braking once again. You simply cannot go wrong with this MaxBrake..... best controller I ever owned! I really don't know how to explain it in any more detail than has already been discussed..... several times. Whenever the driver needs to use his service brakes, the trailer braking will modulate correctly and precisely to the input received by the actual pedal pressure applied by the driver himself... ... NO guesswork! Smooth and controlled stops all the time, everytime.

 

[JMetzger]

I know that with my Prodigy controller you could never lock up the brakes & i always thought that was funny as I thought that the brakes were defective untill I was making a u turn & the plug came out & the brakes locked up. I never knew what the brakes were going to do. They either pulled to the right or left or they would be to much brake in town & not enough on the highway. As I previously stated after installing the MaxBrake I never had to make a single adjustment & they are smooth either in town or on the highway, no pulling left or right just a smooth straight steady stop. Glad I took HBarlow's advice & many others & bought the MaxBrake, I really do not know what the argument is about them, great controller.

 

[AH64ID]

If the exhaust brake or exhaust brake function of the VGT aggressively slows the truck the driver, without even thinking about it, slightly lifts his right foot applying less truck and trailer brakes.

That's the part I don't like. Now the truck is braking harder than the trailer, and you have lost the proportionality setup by the controller. Under normal braking I doubt it's an issue, but braking hard down a hill???

 

[HBarlow]

The only way to know for sure if it's what you want is to try one. Anything else is speculation.

Completely uninformed speculation! He has no understanding of the BrakeSmart/MaxBrake but continues to attempt to criticize them.

 

[AH64ID]

Harvey, you are such a biased idiot that it's impossible to take anything you praise seriously. We could go on for hours on the things you claim to have an understanding of but post wrong information and defend it.

I have stated I haven't used one, but have concerns. Everything posted about it makes those concerns larger, and at the price it's hard to swallow. The other issue is with a price like it has the users are going to love it, even if they don't, to justify the cost.

 

[AH64ID]

Isn't this the forum for discussing things? It's attitudes like this that really don't do anything to help.

It's simple, explain how it works in those instances and all is well. No one has done it, so it leads to skepticism. Someone report how slowing down a 6-8% grade at 15-20K lbs is effected with or without the exhaust brake. I am referring to slowing substantially (i. e. 65 to a stop) not maintaining speed. I would like to hear about stability with and without the exhaust brake.

Getting defensive about a product when you claim it's the best and others are junk is not how things are sold. Go into more detail, don't avoid the discussion. For years I have asked about the loss of trailer braking based on exhaust brake deceleration, yet no-one has a real good answer. Is that because people don't pay attention to it?

99% of the forum users can discuss things, Harvey is in the 1% that can't and despite the generally good info the rest of his attitude does the website a disservice.

 

[Cummins12V98]

Harvey,

I have another question for you.

Now that you have towed with a 2012 truck with the factory brake controller, would you say it is the best (non MaxBrake type) brake controller you have ever used?

I do know my 2011 controller is by far better than any of the Prodigy controllers I have used. It actually works very well with the setting at 8. Smooth on and off. I know, not as good as the 12 or the Max.

 

[AH64ID]

I am not sure it matters if your are slowing down before or on, the point is on a steep grade with the EB working as hard as it can, how is trailer braking effected? Reduced service brakes means less trailer brakes with a max brake right, despite total deceleration? How does that effect stability, as you are now slowing at the same rate, but the trailer isn't doing as much of the share.

Maybe this will help. Lets assume 100% braking is the required braking for the circumstance, whatever it is.

Ideally you want the trailer to be pulling slightly harder than the truck, so lets assume that's 45/55 (truck/trailer). Without the EB you can adjust the brakes to do that, it's in the feel of the trailer as you set the gain. Lets say the EB adds 20% braking to the truck's retarding power.

Okay so you start applying service brakes, and the Max-Brake smoothly and simultaneously applies trailer brakes. Your at 45/55, now you apply the exhaust brake, so your at 54/55. The truck is braking harder, but the trailer isn't slowing with it's same authority over the truck. So now you reduce the truck brakes to get back to the 100% braking required, and you are now at 50/50 and have a lower ratio and lower overall trailer braking, even thou the truck is still at the same amount of deceleration.

Does that explain what I am talking about at all? The %age of total braking from the trailer decreases when the exhaust brake is applied, and I want to know if people can really tell a difference in real world vs on paper. This is pointed at people that have ran both proportional and max-brake, with an exhaust brake equipped rig in the mountains and tried braking control with/without the EB. This is not asking people who haven't touched a proportional or non max-brake/brakesmart in years or with the same setup back to back. I am looking for back to back comparisons, specifically in the mountains (6%+) where the EB is relied up heavily.

With a proportional brake if you apply the exhaust brake the controller will sense greater deceleration and apply more braking to the trailer, so you maintain the ratio setup with the gain, even if you reduce the service brakes the trailer brakes maintain a braking force equal to the preset (by the user) %age according to total deceleration, not just pedal position.

But the proportional aren't as smooth at low speed and bumpy road (dirt specifically) driving, so there is a trade off. But the braking force required at high speed deceleration down a hill is greater than slow an bumpy, so I am looking for factual answers to my question to determine the best trade off. I realize for 99% of users of the max-brake, or any trailer brake, they just don't pay that much attention, I am looking for someone in the 1% who does.

Not trying to start an argument, just trying to get the question I have been asking for years actually answered.

 

[BSeyler]

Again, all you can do is try one. If it works, great. If not, you have a Prodigy. My head hurts - I hear my tractor and brush hog calling.

 

[SnoKing]

With 4400 or so pounds on the front axle of my pickup, 6000+or- on the rear axle, and 10K on two trailer axles, I do not think the exhaust and the service brakes at the same time is an issue. I however seldom have to use service brakes on hills if I select the correct gear/speed going down a hill on the exhaust brake. I am rather just middle of the line however at around 20K combined weight. SNOKING

AH64ID, as I stated in this post, just about any pickup towing a fifth wheel will be heavier on the drivers than the steer axle. I have towed for years with an Banks 4" turbo mounted exhaust brake and a very tight DTT transmission and their smart controller that does lock to lock shifts and I have NEVER felt that the exhaust brake plus service brakes caused an issue with handling in a lot of different conditions throughout the Western States.

Years ago I drove a short wheel base twin screw daycab Titan 90 Chevy towing a 8500 gal tanker trailer. Now that was a truck that one had to be careful with in conditions like to worry about.

The yellow one here is similar. http://timstrucks.site.aplus.net/timgmc.htm Put a 35' 8500 gallon aluminum trailer behind that and work on your driving skills. My runs where out on Port Angeles, Wa to Forks and other Olympic Peninsula locations. Tare weight was only 25K empty, so it could be a handful loaded and empty.

SNOKING

 

[AH64ID]

Thanks SNOKING. I am about 4800 on the steer, 6300 on the drive, and 7K on the two trailer axles when I head into the mountains.

The EB does do a great job of holding speed, it will hold me on a 7% grade at 55 pretty easily. It's the slowing, not maintaining, that I wonder about.