Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Modifying fuel system so temperature input to VP44, 80* - 100*, your inputs.

[Texas Diesel]

BS[/B] I care to take...



Cheers to the good guys, to the rest...

Please God answer his request.



Gary, in case you havnt thought this through (which is normal for you), it is heat CYCLES, spell it, C_Y_C_L_E_S, there you go, even you can get it.



Heat CYCLES, CYCLES, CYCLES, hot-cold-hot-cold-hot-cold, 100's of times a day is why the FedEx boards (actually pumpbrain) was created.



You are the biggest source of never ending nonsense on the whole TDR. Were you dropped on your head as a kid?



Why is it whenever anyone confronts you on some nonsense you posted, you always resort to the same form of trademark, petty sarcasim? Grow up and learn the art of listening. You dont have to respond to EVERY post.

 

[rweis]

I read something interesting about the "pump brain" and have NO idea if it is true.



The comment was "It is NOT a bunch of components on a board, it is a VLSI (Very Large Scale Intergrated) single chip".



True? / False? does not make any real difference, but just an interesting statement.



Bob Weis

 

[Jeepmullet]

Still hoping someone markets one of these

 

[keimmmo]

Bob sent me a PM asking questions about how I made my cooler and why I did it the way I did. I am really interested in seeing what he builds and finding out how well it works! I suspect more GOOD information is soon to come!



For what it is worth, it took me a long afternoon to build my cooler once I had decided how to make it. It isn't difficult at all... if you can braze.



Steve Keim

 

[rweis]

I have a fluid flow question:



If I use a 3/8 ID the pi*r*r =. 44 sq inches, 1/2=. 78, 5/8=1. 23, 3/4=1. 76



What happens to the flow RATE?



If I am running 15psi in the 3/8 and use say a 3/4 which is approximately 4 times the sq inches what happens to the flow rate?



I am trying to figuer out what size pipe to use.



Come out of a 3/8 fuel line into a 3/4 cooler tubing to slow the flow rate so it has time to cool and the cooler be effective as it can be, then put it back in the 3/8 to deliver it to the VP44.



Bob Weis



Pipe most likely will be thick wall rigid copper, with soldered joints.

 

[keimmmo]

The smaller the tube, the more fuel it has in contact with the outside wall and the less is in the middle not being cooled. I really couldn't justify going smaller than 3/8 OD pass tubes and 1/2 ID inch tanks due to strength concerns. Larger diameters would be counterproductive for cooling! Likewise, you want the thinnest wall tubing that will hold up to get the best cooling!



Having multiple paths (tubes) just slows the speed of the fuel passing through the tube... giving it more time to leave the heat it is carrying in the copper tubing. The principals behind my fuel cooler are the same as for the cross flow radiator that cools our motors. Why are there so many tubes going side to side in our radiators? Why are radiators made of such thin material? Answer... it is what makes them the most efficient.



At first I tried to solder the tubing. After fighting it a while I decided it would be easier to control braze. Besides, braze is strong enough that I am NOT worried about it fatigueing over time with the diesel vibration! If you can get good neat solder joints, it will probably be fine.



I really discourage large diameter or thick wall tubing!!!



Steve Keim

 

[Mundgyver]

I installed one of these which works very well and in essence is a crossflow radiator for the fuel. Was quick and my VP temp runs between 70 and 102* depending on if I am empty or pulling one of my trailer.

 

[keimmmo]

I got to thinking after finishing the last post... several years ago I saw a cross flow radiator on a small car down here that had the inlet and outlet on the same side with the water flowing across the top and back across the bottom... just like I built my fuel cooler. I don't remember what car it was, but I remember the radiator since it was so unusual.



Also, if you compare the cooler to a radiator, the "burp valve" is in the same place as the radiator cap... which lets the air out of the engine cooling system.



Hey guys, I'm really not that smart! I just copied something that is KNOWN to work!!!



Steve Keim

 

[keimmmo]

Mundgyver,



Great job and good info! Obviously, you have a MANUAL trans. Bob and I have AUTOMATICS. The hole you used does not exist on our trucks due to the trans cooler.



What you have done would be GREAT for the fellows with manual trans!!! Like you said, quick, easy, efficient, and at a reasonable price! I also appreciate the fuel temps you posted!!! I have a feeling mine are close to the same.



Again, I am trying to do EXACTLY what you have done... only I have to do it in a different way since I have an automatic!



Steve Keim

 

[Mundgyver]

Yep, you have a transmission cooler in that spot I think don't you? To monitor my VP temps I bought one of those inside outside thermometer with a clock on it that you see in the local auto-parts store. I ran the sensor to the cover on the VP and tacked it down and then put a spot of insulation over it to keep the air off of it. Mount the unit on my steering column with some velcro.

 

[keimmmo]

Mundgyver,



A couple more questions. First, have you relocated or in any way insulated your fuel filter housing from the heat of the cylinder head?



Have you noticed any improvement in fuel economy? Have you noticed any performance boost... especially at part throttle?



Your system of measuring the temp is not the same as Bob's. He has a temp guage in the line as the fuel enters the VP. I REALLY LIKE his system!!! Still, if the temp of the actual VP is only 70*-102*, the fuel going into it must be even cooler!!!



Steve Keim

 

[rweis]

Mundgyver, yeah, our transmission cooler is right in the wrong place! When you are getting the 70 degree temps on the VP what is the OAT? I found the 4" bilge fan does NOT need the motor controller to be reasonably not objectionable with noise. This weekend I am going to take the dc pwm motor controller out of the blower mix.



keimmmo,



I went to Home Depot tonight and it will be 3/8 and or 1/2 as that is what is available. I spent quite a while looking at all the possibilities of fittings, some fittings even COME with their own solder (I even found a REAL plumber and asked him, he said he highly recommends to learn to solder, the pre soldered ones can be shakey at best, not enough solder. ). So I just visualized what you had done and looked for fittings and how this thing will all go together. Actually I really enjoy the planning.



I have not rerouted my plumbing yet and am getting a lot of air in the line up by the RASP (not the RASP fault, my fault in something I did when I rerouted a cylinder cooler just prior to the RASP. I am going to remove everything I added prior to the RASP so it gets good solid fuel like it did before I added the cooler just before the RASP).



I have decided for me I am going to do the in front of the radiator thing like keimmmo, and then run the return line on the outside of the frame rail (maybe a parallel double line or triple line to slow the fuel down?) back to the H7B w/fan cooler which I will reroute to the return line that goes to the tank vent line in an effort to get rid of more fuel heat (I want OAT fuel temp going into the VP. I find that the EBC runs Fuel inlet temp +5 empty, and +15 towing. That should be ok for 110 degree OAT summers). That is why I started another thread to find out what thread size the return fuel line to the tank fitting is on the T at the engine. So far no one seems to know. So still looking for that information.



I have been running my "experiment" for about 2 months now and am running OAT +10 as fuel input and OAT + 15 as EBC temp empty. I want to run OAT as input fuel temp and will get this other 10 degrees out of the fuel somewhere and somehow before it gets to the VP. I hope the up front cooler will do that.



This is all very interesting, and actually fun, to challange the conventional thinking. It makes it even more fun to have others helping think through the process.



Thanks for the "conversation",



Bob Weis

 

[rweis]

keimmmo, Mundgyver's VP temp checker is exactely like mine. Mine is a outdoor temp gauge with the sensor mounted on the EBC of the VP.



However, I also did an inline fuel temp sensor. What I find about that is that at fuel sensor temp the EBC is about +5* empty and +15* towing.



With the EBC temp thermometer you can easily see how rpm effects the temps. Drive at 1500 rpm and let the EBC get stable. Drive at 2000 rpm and the EBC goes up a couple of degrees (I think about 5 as I recall).



It definitely shows that the heat from the fuel pressurization directly reflects on the EBC temperature. Which also leads me to think that when I tow out of O/D at 2400 rpm I am getting more torque and rpm, BUT generating more heat at the VP due to fuel pressurization by probably 10 - 15 degrees from my empty 1400 rpm. And of course the engine temp is up about 10 degrees when towing and now towing at 2400 is grossing about 25 degrees greater than empty (which empty runs OAT + 15 degrees, so now we are at OAT + 40 degrees). Now add mountains ... ... .



Bob Weis

 

[Mundgyver]

I am not running my stock fuel filter any more. I have a FASS 150 GPH mounted up under and in the pocket formed just infront of the left rear wheel. I have a full 3/8th's inside diameter line all the way to the vp and the connection on the vp is 3/8th's I. D. also. This gives me a very nice volumn of flow. I chose the transmission cooler as it seemed to be the best choice and provided the most surface area for the effort. Cost me $104 even and 20 minutes to install. This last fall when we were in the 70's my vp was running 85 to 90* depending on how hard it drove. I just did a trip this last week up to Colville, WA pulling 8,000 lbs with outside temps running from 10* to 30*. I do have winter shields in place on the front. During that 460 mile, one way and 920 mile round trip I saw my temps range from 90* here in Portland as I started out to 69* as I was comming in to Colville at 8:30 in the evening with an outside temp of 10*. These temps were while towin with the Edge Comp in level 1. On the return trip I turned up the Comp to level 3 because we were empty and kind of in a hurry and my temps of the vp hovered in the 90* most the the trip back.



I am still running my original VP with over 158,000 now. I never had my lift pump go bad, Knock on Wood, and when I put the FASS in over 100,000 ago, my comfort level went up.



I think the biggest difference I saw was when I increased the diameter of the fuel line to the vp. The truck just ran allot smoother. .



In the fall when I shut down, my heat soak would show 110 to 115* after about 10 minutes.

 

[rweis]

That is about what I saw:



With coolers VP EBC was OAT +15 empty.

With coolers VP EBC was OAT +25 or so towing.

After shutdown VP EBC was OAT +50 or so. Your fall of OAT 70 and heat soak of 115?



The after shutdown temp is why Gary and I have been playing with blowers on the VP after shutdown. We can generally keep the VP to about shutdown temp + about 5 which is generally OAT +20 empty maybe OAT +30 towing.



We (Gary & I) think some of the dammage to the VP EBC is the OAT +50 after shutdown. Add something to reflect the actual EB electronics (20?) and the OAT of 100 and now you have OAT +70 = 170 for about 2 hours before the engine compartment actually starts to drop temperatures.



Now, supposedly the problem was multiple heatsoakings over time. How much heat is too much?, and for how long? Don't know. That is why my orgional objective was OAT because I figuered that was safe. Just a guess though, nothing scientific.



I think a spinoff of cooler fuel is better lubrication of the Vp by the cooler fuel. And that may well be the greatest end result of this fuel cooler experimentation.



Bob Weis

 

[keimmmo]

Bob,



Now that you mention it, I do remember you talking about the thermometer you installed in the thread. Seems like it gives some good info, but I still am partial to the fuel temp guage.



I like your plan to build a huge cooler and mount it along the frame. I can see that actually working better than a commercial cooler... and with no moving parts. When I relocated my fuel return into the filler neck, I hooked up the new plumbing with copper tubing. Yes, the tubing gets warm... so, it is probably cooling the return fuel just a little. But, a really long run of multiple tubes would do a lot of cooling!



Mundgyver,



Getting rid of the fuel filter, which serves as a fuel heater, and running a cooler. Simple and effective. Although we have made slightly different modifications, it looks like we are thinking a lot alike! I will never claim to have the best plan on the planet, but I'm confident the fuel entering the VP is cooler than originally. I do not care to worry about getting out every degree possible unless it is PROVEN to make a difference. I am happy with my system.



Steve Keim

 

[rweis]

On empty daily driving (1400 rpm, 51 mph) the fuel temp input and the tank vent line return is 15 degrees difference. This tells me at 1400 the work the VP is adding is = 15 degrees of fuel temp. I have not built a table of rpm vs fuel return temp. However, I think greater rpm is directly correlated to greated fuel return temp (I know that is an obvious statement. More work = more heat). I think the difference is somewhere about 20 - 30 degrees for rpm's 1400 - 2400.



I know I do not get this rise out of my system now as I can see it everyday. Full tank slower rise than empty tank as you would expect. However still a constant rise up to a stable temp but OAT + anywhere form 15 - 30 degrees. I am shooting for the 110 degrees hot southwest day to feed the Vp44 110 degree fuel, not 150 degree fuel, so that the VP output is not 180 degrees, but rather 140 degrees. A lot of work for 40 degrees I know!



That VP rise is the temperature I am trying to get out of the system. So far haven't be able to do it. Hence why the idea of a LONG MULTIPLE line frame MOUNTED (trying to get the frame to accept some of the heat) return. Slow the return fuel down (multiple line) and try to get the slipstream to get this heat out.



Bob Weis

 

[Texas Diesel]

A lot of work for 40 degrees I know! Bob Weis

Dont underestimate your efforts. I remember from flight school that drag increases at the square of velocity. Double velocity and drag quadruples. I'm sure the same logarithmic principal applies to heat vs wear. Metals wear faster as they get hotter because the molecules move apart and the surface becomes less dense, nopt to mention the viscosity of the fuel decreases. (one reason I run a 180 tstat)



This why the shift to thinner motor oil and higher tstat opening temps. The EPA wants more MPG even if engine life is compromised. In the 60's tsats of 160f were common, now 210F is typical.

 

[keimmmo]

The more I read on TDR in general, the more I understand how little I really understand!



Bob,



I don't know if you have caught that on my cooler the tanks are 1/2 rigid tubing, which is measured ID. The pass tubes are 3/8 OD tubing... the stuff that comes in a roll. I just straightenen it out and brazed it into place. I drilled and brazed directly into the tanks for two reasons. One is that adapters do not exist down here to go from rigid to flexible tubing. The other is that the unions in connections create a thick spot in the cooler and lower the efficiency at that point.



Now, that long cooler along the frame... Multiple tubes of the flexible tubing would be perfect for it!!! You can curve it to fit the contour of the frame! I suppose you will install it outboard of the frame to get the best cooling? And, do not mount it too close to the frame. Air flowing past the tubing will do more cooling that the steel frame.



I look forward to seeing your creations and hearing how they work!



Steve Keim

 

[Texas Diesel]

***OFF TOPIC***







Steve, this is my $25 10 micron filter mounted. Note the drain is above the skid plate.