Montana 5th wheel

[Javabean]

Looking at a 34 foot Montana 5th wheel I have a 2011 2500 CTD. Does any one have any feedback on this combination?

 

[ringneck]

it is not rated for fultime rving,so does that tell you any thing. we also look at them,but boughtl a carriage cameo. look beyond the gillter,compare frames and axels and fiberglass. montanas have china frames and pin box. most all rv use same vendors on the insides. check how their put togather and who made the frame and axles. nu way are also good. good luck

 

[HBarlow]

Keystone is the parent company that builds Montana trailers using Lippert frame and suspension components. Lippert is synonymous with thin and flimsy frame members, poor quality welding by marginally trained welders probably working on a piece work basis, and cheap ChiComm axles, springs, and running gear.

Keystone sells a lot of Montana units. I think they claim to be the biggest selling fifth wheel travel trailer for something like ten years straight.

Would I own one? NO!

A 34' Montana will be about 36' long and have a gross weight of around 14k. It's about twice as much trailer as a Ram 2500 should pull.

I have two questions:

Question One is for me: Why do you bother answering these questions when youi already know from long experience that the person who asked the question does not want to hear any answer but "your truck can pull it just fine" and will ignore my advice?

Question Two for the original poster: Why did you buy a Ram 2500 with very limited carrying capacity if you want to pull a huge and heavy fifth wheel?

Do you know that a Ram 2500 only has about 2000 lbs. or less of weight carrying capacity after you add passengers, fuel, and a hitch?

 

[Javabean]

My thought process, if any

My wife and I have had several campers in the past my last being a 30 foot Jayco which I pulled with a 93 Dodge Cummins which was a real beast. When we started looking at getting back into RVs I had a 2008 GMC Sierra Crew Cab. Everything we liked in a travel trailer was in the 8K lbs so I started researching trucks I didn't like what I read about the Powerstroke and new Duramax. I've had my new Cummins since December and it's been back to the dealer six times. I like the truck but not real pleased with the quality. I guess I expected a lot for $55,000. I digress, with a towing capacity of 12700 I thought I would check out a few 5th wheels to see if they would meet our needs. There are a lot of glitter out there but I am more interested in the quality of the construction. Bottom line is if I don't raise the question to people that have current knowledge of the market I won't know anything other than what the dealer tells me. Thanks for all the replies.

 

[HBarlow]

Javabean,

That "12,700 lbs. towing capacity" figure found in the brochures is not a meaningful number you can actually use.

The only useful figures are the manufacturer's gross combined weight numbers which consider drive axle ratios as well as other factors and actual scale weight of your truck when loaded with normal passengers, full of fuel, with fifth wheel hitch mounted, and carrying whatever your truck will normally carry on a trip towing a fifth wheel.

Subtract actual loaded truck weight from gross combined weight rating and your remainder will be maximum allowable weight of fifth wheel trailer. You will find that that number is nowhere near 12,700 lbs. With a Ram 2500 you must also consider kingpin weight. It is typical with a Ram 2500 that even though you have adequate towing capacity you do not have adequate load carrying capacity on the rear axle.

 

[Grizzly]

My wife and I have had several campers in the past my last being a 30 foot Jayco which I pulled with a 93 Dodge Cummins which was a real beast. When we started looking at getting back into RVs I had a 2008 GMC Sierra Crew Cab. Everything we liked in a travel trailer was in the 8K lbs so I started researching trucks I didn't like what I read about the Powerstroke and new Duramax. I've had my new Cummins since December and it's been back to the dealer six times. I like the truck but not real pleased with the quality. I guess I expected a lot for $55,000. I digress, with a towing capacity of 12700 I thought I would check out a few 5th wheels to see if they would meet our needs. There are a lot of glitter out there but I am more interested in the quality of the construction. Bottom line is if I don't raise the question to people that have current knowledge of the market I won't know anything other than what the dealer tells me. Thanks for all the replies.

First of all a Montana is not a quality 5th wheel. They are rated 2. 5 stars on average. Second, Don't listen to RV salesman about Construction quality of any trailer. They probably know less than you do. They just sound like they know everything. Third, listen to Harvey. He knows about trailer quality. Forth, purchase a copy of the RV Consumer Group. It tells you everything you need to know about every 5th Wheel and Travel Trailer made. It also teaches you how to get the best price from the dealer. The RVCG is about $150, but it's well worth the money. It will keep you from making a huge mistake by buying the wrong 5th wheel, like a Montana or anything from Keystone. Also stay away from anything from Forest River and Fleetwood and several others.



The list of manufactures to consider are far less than the ones to not consider.



george

 

[odinjunior]

I have two questions:



Question One is for me: Why do you bother answering these questions when youi already know from long experience that the person who asked the question does not want to hear any answer but "your truck can pull it just fine" and will ignore my advice?





I'll answer this one.....



Because guys like me need to be reminded that an attractive price does not equal a good deal... ... ... ... ... . I take your advice... Thanks again

 

[HBarlow]

I have two questions:

Question One is for me: Why do you bother answering these questions when youi already know from long experience that the person who asked the question does not want to hear any answer but "your truck can pull it just fine" and will ignore my advice?


I'll answer this one.....

Because guys like me need to be reminded that an attractive price does not equal a good deal... ... ... ... ... . I take your advice... Thanks again

Thank you, sincerely, odinjunior. The rare poster who truly does want an honest answer and factors it into his decision making is what keeps members like Grizzly and me answering the same old questions.

Some actually respond with anger when told the truth and of course, other TDR member often respond with angry defenses of the similar decision they have already made.

I also need to occasionally remind myself that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, who quietly read our discussions (angry arguments?) here without comment and learn from them.

We do actually make slow progress. As recently as two or three years ago Tekonsha Voyager or Prodigy brake controllers were often recommended and praised here as the standard of brake controllers. Now, as many as 100 members and readers have purchased MaxBrake or BrakeSmart controllers and few will even publicly admit they still use a pretend brake controller like the Prodigy.

 

[MelvinPierce]

A 34' Montana will be about 36' long and have a gross weight of around 14k. It's about twice as much trailer as a Ram 2500 should pull.



With a Ram 2500 you must also consider kingpin weight. It is typical with a Ram 2500 that even though you have adequate towing capacity you do not have adequate load carrying capacity on the rear axle.

I disagree. I have a Ram 2500. I also have a 38' toyhauler, with a Gross weight rating of 16,000#. When loaded, ready to go, I am at 22,000# gross, 2,000# over the gross rating.



However, the AXLE weights are ALL within specs. They are the ones I am concerned with, so you do not overload the mechanics.



The front axle is rated at 5200#, and is carrying 4940#.

The rear axle is rated at 6000#, and is carrying 5640#.

The trailer axles are at 5960# and 5400#, both within specs. The tires are G rated, so within specs easily.



So, the statement that the Ram will be over on the rear axle is NOT true here. It MAY be with some trailers, but certainly not with mine.



He may, or may not, be over. Just depends on the axle placement on the trailer.



MP

 

[HBarlow]

Your trailer may allow you to do that and remain within axle weight limits. Many, perhaps most, large fifth wheels will not.

Have you ever considered the effect of a tire failure with maximum load on all tires?

 

[Javabean]

Thanks everyone for your input I will take all the advice I can get. I will purchase the RV Guide as suggested as I won't making any purchase decisions until I sell my 28foot Carver Riviera. In the mean time I will continue reading and learning.

 

[Javabean]

Harvey continue to speak the truth as you know it. We all need to have our expectations level set by those with experience in doing the things we may be attempting to do.



When my son was a teenager I was dumb now at 30 and a Deputy Sheriff and former Marine SSGT I am a pretty smart old fart. Ya just have to put the options out there and hope they pick the right one.



Happy Easter

 

[MelvinPierce]

Your trailer may allow you to do that and remain within axle weight limits. Many, perhaps most, large fifth wheels will not.



Have you ever considered the effect of a tire failure with maximum load on all tires?

Well, I did use MY trailer weights, so it DOES allow me to load it that way, and I stated that other trailers, depending on axle placement, might not work.



You blanket stated that his 2500 was way too light, and was only capable of a trailer 1/2 his size, which I STRONGLY disagree with.



Also, the tires on the trailer are NOT near max. load. Max load is 3750# each. 2 X 3750 is 7500#. My heaviest axle is 5960#, so I am at 79% of max. load. I consider that to be VERY conservative loading.



Tire failure is just as catastrophic at 50% load, as it is at 100% load. The tread flying off does just as much damage.

 

[HBarlow]

I'm wasn't talking about trailer tire loading. Your post stated you had LRG tires on the trailer which would provide plenty of margin. That is not the issue here. Blowing a tire on a trailer will cause severe damage to the trailer but is very unlikely to cause control problems.

The maximum loaded tires I was speaking of are the four on your truck, particularly the rear tires. A tire failure or even rapid deflation on a rear tire while pulling that trailer which loads the truck to the thin edge of its limits at highway speed would very likely cause a significant control issue and could result in running off the road down an embankment, through a farmer's fence, over a severe drop off, even an upset.

Yep, a tire failure at 98% load may not be much worse than a tire failure at 50% load but is sure as hell a lot worse than a rear tire failure on a dually hauling the same trailer.

 

[MelvinPierce]

Well, I am not sure where you get your figures, do you look them up, or just dream up something to suit your purposes? The rear tires are rated at 3190#, so I am loading them at about 87% of capacity. Not anywhere near the 98% you thought up.

Are you then saying nobody should load to rated capacity? How much BELOW capacity should we be? 13% below does not seem to be good enough for you. 25%, 35%?

I agree on dually's being safer than single tires. That applies to EVERY trailer hauler out there. Where do you draw the line? Should I have a dually for a 6000# trailer? How about a 3000# one? It IS safer than a single rear tire pickup.

I pull a 1800# loaded trailer with my little diesel VW Jetta, trailer with my Valkyrie in it. The owners manual says it is rated for a 2000# trailer. Do you consider me to be safe? Should I get a dually pickup to pull it, because I know that if I blow a tire, it is safer with a dually. I know it is. No argument there with you.

Should I go out and buy a used semi tractor, of which I have over 2 million miles in, because it IS safer than a dually pickup? It IS safer, using the same argument you used with the dually.

Of course, the bigger the tow vehicle in relation to the towed, the better it is. No question. I just question the fact that you jumped all over the OP with both feet, saying he was way out of bounds even considering pulling that trailer.

A dually pickup is SAFER pulling any size trailer than a single wheel pickup. Heck, it is safer running WITHOUT a trailer, using your argument. Should we outlaw single wheel pickups, because they are "safer"?

I do not think the OP is out of bounds wondering if he can pull that trailer, depending on the weight distribution of the particular trailer he is considering. It may, or may not, be acceptable.

MP

 

[HBarlow]

Keystone is the parent company that builds Montana trailers using Lippert frame and suspension components. Lippert is synonymous with thin and flimsy frame members, poor quality welding by marginally trained welders probably working on a piece work basis, and cheap ChiComm axles, springs, and running gear.

Keystone sells a lot of Montana units. I think they claim to be the biggest selling fifth wheel travel trailer for something like ten years straight.

Would I own one? NO!

A 34' Montana will be about 36' long and have a gross weight of around 14k. It's about twice as much trailer as a Ram 2500 should pull.

I have two questions:

Question One is for me: Why do you bother answering these questions when youi already know from long experience that the person who asked the question does not want to hear any answer but "your truck can pull it just fine" and will ignore my advice?

Question Two for the original poster: Why did you buy a Ram 2500 with very limited carrying capacity if you want to pull a huge and heavy fifth wheel?

Do you know that a Ram 2500 only has about 2000 lbs. or less of weight carrying capacity after you add passengers, fuel, and a hitch?

I stand by my original statement about towing a heavy fiver with a Ram 2500.

 

[SearsK]

OK,I think I'll jump in on this one. I've been a camper AND in RV sales for over thirty years. All vehicles have a manufacture recommended tow rating. When a customer comes in to purchase a RV, the first thing I ask is what they have for a tow vehicle and what their tow rating is. Most don't know. I have tow rating charts from 1999 to present, and before I sell a customer a unit, I check their tow rating. I normally suggest 1000 to 1500#'s under the tow rating for the dry weight of a RV to purchase. In travel trailers unit dry weight is the main thing to consider, tongue weight can usually be controlled with an equalizer kit, ans sway with sway control equipment. Vehicle tires can also play a part. With a 5W, two things must be considered, kingpin weight and 5W weight. Most 1/2 ton trucks will not handle most 5w's. 3/4 ton diesel trucks will handle a good verity of 5W's. One ton's will handle most but not all 5W's safely, but not all, that's why they make class 5 and up trucks. Be careful, some RV salesmen just want to sell something. I would rather lose a sale than get someone in a bad situation.

Now, about BRAND. They all will have problems, they are man made. First off, I have owned Keystone products, Montana's among them, and other brands. I now own a Cameo by Carriage.

Answer to the original question, will a 3/4 ton pull a Montana, the answer is YES, DEPENDING on what model. All manufacturers have problems. In 30+ years, I haven't seen one that doesn't, some a lot more than others

Do your homework, what are you going to do with your RV, sometime or fulltime camping. Don't overload your vehicle OR your RV, that's what causes most towing problems.

I will respond to any questions, and what I have said in the above is my humble opinion.

 

[HBarlow]

I'm amazed that you use manufacturer's dry weight for making such determinations.

Every single trailer I have ever seen figures on weighs significantly more than their stated dry weight when a transporter picks them up at the factory and hauls them to a dealer. If the manufacturer's dry weight is even intended to be somewhat accurate it does not include a battery or batteries(most have at least two now), LPG, air conditioner(s), larger tires and wheels, suspension upgrades, two television sets, washer/dryer combos, or a dozen other popular accessories.

Of what possible value is dry weight? Who is going to haul a recreational trailer empty and dry? Even if dry weight was accurate, which it is not, what good would a trailer be without LPG in the tanks, water in the fresh water tank, food, clothing, utensils, personal items, etc. ?

Here's a good example of dry weight that I ran across just today. My daughter and son-in-law bought a 24' enclosed race trailer from my grandson. It was manufactured by Forest River and has all sorts of fancy trim, lights, generator, work bench, etc. It was originally sold and registered in WV where my grandson lives.

Before it could be registered in TX it had to be weighed on a certified scale, inspected for lights, tires, brakes, etc. and VIN verified. My sil is a very busy man running a construction company so I agreed to help my daughter today get the trailer registered.

The WV title showed: Dry Weight 4200 lbs. GVWR 9900 lbs. I knew that was bogus because I was the one who pulled it here from WV last November. Today I pulled it on a certifed scale, unhooked and dropped it, and moved my truck off the scale.

The trailer axles weighed 4,180 lbs. which is what the mfr. claimed the whole trailer weighed. The tongue, also resting on the scale but a different section, weighed almost 1200 lbs. I forget what the exact number was. Total weight was about 5400 lbs. Clearly the manufacturer provided a bogus weight intentionally or weighed only the axles with the tongue supported by the tow vehicle. The so-called dry weight was off by approximately 28%!

I would NEVER use dry weight for any calculation regarding trailer weight. That will lead to some very inaccurate and potentially dangerous decisions.

The only useful weight is GVWR because a trailer, loaded for use, will weigh very close to GVWR. The best way to determine weight is to take it to a scale but that is very hard for a prospective buyer to do with a new trailer. Next best way to know what a trailer will weigh is to read the GVWR off the VIN tag.

 

[DRAG DIESEL]

Looking at a 34 foot Montana 5th wheel I have a 2011 2500 CTD. Does any one have any feedback on this combination?

I (actually) have (unlike most in this thread) a 3400RL that I tow with both my trucks. They are not '11, but the trailer pulls great! Zero complaints.

 

[SearsK]

Manufacturers today weigh their units after they are built. No they do not inlude a battery or LP in the tanks. All options (today) are included in the weight. Most people load anywhere 500 to 1200 #'s. Yes I do use the dry weight, and allow 100 to 1500 #'s to determine how much a vehicle will be towing. Tongue weight is determined by the location of the axles. It should be at least 15% of the trailer weight. Not enough tongue weight will cause trailer sway. Tongue weight doesn't increase the weight of the trailer. Its included in the uvw specified on the unit