My truck is heavy...

[HBarlow]

Kenny,

And another thought. Reciprocity is NOT a challenge and does not require a LEO to know or carry copies of the laws of other states!

All the officer has to be familiar with is USDOT REGULATIONS! Any interstate transportation company operating nationwide knows USDOT regulations and unless it is an outlaw company using drivers it is in compliance with the exception of an occasional lamp out or a driver who is running ahead of his logbook.

That is the reason for USDOT laws --- to simplify nationwide interstate compliance and enforcement and to avoid the bottlenecks and impossible hurdles and burdens that would be created by individual states if allowed to make and enforce their own rules. Your own NY state is a clear example of the problem if states were allowed to regulate interstate commerce with their own laws.

 

[kenny61]

Kenny,

When you stated above you will obtain and post a written decision I hope you don't mean from the state of NY. Personally, I will give no credence to an interpretation from NY.

The only thing that matters here is US DOT regulations and, in KLauber's case, SC law. If you will simply sit down with a relaxed and open mind and read the US DOT regulations online you will understand that what I and GAmes are telling you is correct. Gary Owens, another TDR member with RV transport experience, also stated the same things early in this thread.

Harvey this post alone shows what a fool you are good day. And I hope your willing to pay for someone who listens to your crap Even if it is one of us stupid NY's getting screwed by one of our laws. .

And yes again Harvey I understand Ken is from SC. My original response roughly said I don't know about SC but in NY it may be illegal. Now you simply choose to ignore that you brought in more by saying what I posted was Not True.


As a matter of fact you are so thick headed you even say my posting that you may not need to mark your truck under certain circumstances statement is wrong.

Again I am only trying to look out for fellow members, Clearly if any member had a question they should contact the state they will be traveling through. Not printing out pages of the TDR.

 

[HBarlow]

Thanks Kenny. I'll take your post as an admission that you aren't familiar with US DOT regulations and your entire contribution to this discussion has been about NY law while I have argued about USDOT and, by extension, SC law.

I wish you a good day also but hope you and your fellow LEOs will not harass any poor non-CDL drivers today.

 

[kenny61]

http://www.scstp.org/

A "Commercial Motor Vehicle" is defined as a self-propelled or towed vehicle used on the highways in commerce principally to transport passengers or cargo, if the vehicle:
(a) has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of at least 10,001 pounds, whichever is greater;
(b) is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation;
(c) is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(d) is used in transporting hazardous materials in a quantity requiring placarding. Carriers must register immediately in order to operate in interstate commerce. Online registration is recommended.

SCDMV Online: General Driver's License Information

Driver's License Classes

Regular (non-commercial) driver's licenses are issued in the following classes depending on the type and intended use of the vehicle. Click the following link if you are interested in Commercial Driver Licenses (CDL).
Class D Passenger vehicles and all non-commercial vehicles that do not exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.
Class E Non-commercial single unit vehicles that exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.
Class F Non-commercial combination vehicles that exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.
Class G Moped.
Class M Motorcycle.

 

[kenny61]

http://www.scstp.org/

A "Commercial Motor Vehicle" is defined as a self-propelled or towed vehicle used on the highways in commerce principally to transport passengers or cargo, if the vehicle:

(a) has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of at least 10,001 pounds, whichever is greater;

(b) is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation;

(c) is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(d) is used in transporting hazardous materials in a quantity requiring placarding. Carriers must register immediately in order to operate in interstate commerce. Online registration is recommended.

SCDMV Online: General Driver's License Information

Driver's License Classes



Regular (non-commercial) driver's licenses are issued in the following classes depending on the type and intended use of the vehicle. Click the following link if you are interested in Commercial Driver Licenses (CDL).

Class D Passenger vehicles and all non-commercial vehicles that do not exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.

Class E Non-commercial single unit vehicles that exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.

Class F Non-commercial combination vehicles that exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.

Class G Moped.

Class M Motorcycle.

 

[GAmes]

I think the confusion here is the classes of DLs that NY issues. Like CA, which requires that their residents have a CDL A to pull a cargo trailer over 10,000 GVWR whether commercial or not, NY apparantly requires their residents to have a CDL to operate commercial vehicle over 10,000. Sooooooooooo, in a nutshell NY is using their DL classifications to suck more money out of it's residents. NY is not the only state that abuses the CDL A as it was designed. A lot of states require a CDL A to operate vehicles or combos over 26,000 even if it is not commercial. That is because they have no class of DL to cover vehicles that are that heavy. Texas has a non-commercial Class A to cover those circumstnces, CA has a non-commercial class A for heavy RV trailers, the list goes on and on.



The bottom line is the federal regulations only require a CDL if the CMV's GVWR or GCWR is over 26,001 or over. Many people get hung up on the 10,000 pound trailer part so I'll offer this for clarification. The Class A CDL is required if the trailer is over 10,000 GVWR AND the combo is over 26,000 GCWR (GVWR + GVWR). As long as the GCWR does not exceed 26,000 the trailer's GVWR can be any number and a CDL of any gender is not required. The Class B CDL allows you to drive a vehicle over 26,000 GVWR AND pull a trailer under 10,000 GVWR. If the trailer goes over 10,000 GVWR a Class A would be required. Clearly NY intrastate commerce has a lot more nuances than most states do. This is the only instance I have ever heard of that would require the driver of a delivery van the size of a brown UPS truck to have a CDL. Those of us in the interstate commercial business would not be required to comply with the NY CDL requirement any more than I would be required to have a CDL to pull my 14,000 GVWR deckover gooseneck hauling my personnal stuff into CA.



Other than the med card, 10,000 GVWR/GCWR has another requirement in interstate commerce. That is the cutoff requiring a USDOT number, logbook, vehicle marking, etc. If Joe blow loads his 2500 with a couple lawnmowers and cans of gas he can cross the Red River into OK and mow lawns for pay with impunity. If he loads those same mowers and gas cans onto a flatbed trailer with a GVWR of 2000 pounds his GCWR now exceeds 10,000 and he falls under FMCSA regs when he crosses the RED River with the intent of mowing for pay. Tehnically, if a doctor throws his little black bag into the front seat of his 3500 duelly and crosses state lines to practice medicine he is operating a CMV. Clearly that nuance is unenforcable, but you get the idea. By the same token, if Ken tows his rig out of SC while being paid to do so, he is a CMV and is subject to all the associated requirements. He may be able to operate inside SC without complying with any of them.



Kenny, rather than writing a letter to the state I suggest this. While you are having coffee with a DOT LEO (and not a rookie), be it state police or a separate agency ask them. I'm pretty sure a letter would be shuffled to a desk driver that hasn't blown the dust off his manuals in decades.



On edit; I just looked closer at the source of your last post and realized you were quoting SC regs. So I am guessing my references to NY were in error, but then again might be on track because of some of your other posts.

 

[GAmes]

More truck would be appreciated! Until that happens, I added SuperSprings to level out the ride. Its amazing how smooth a ride it is now, I thought it would be harsher, but the extra leaves in combo with the roller makes it very comfortable when unloaded.



Ken

Ken, tell me more about these Supersprings. I looked them up on line but their website isn't very descriptive. Are they an add on to the current springs or a new spring pack? Will they work with Timbrens? Approx cost and is it a do it yourself project? Thanks.

 

[kenny61]

GAmes. I believe you are correct in what you state. I would just like to add I do not see anywhere in my traffic laws where it makes an exemption for out of state drivers. Which also does not mean it doesn't exist. It may very well,But the onus will be upon the poor smuck who has to fight it in court. I am simply posting NY laws and giving 2 decades of experience with interpretation of laws and how they can be "twisted" if you will to make the situation fit the law. I am quite sure you have seen this in your travels. Which is also why I said It MAY be illegal in NY. I simply posted an opinion that erred on the side of caution, because I have seen what has happened to some people based on the officers interpretation of the laws.

Also as I believe you or Harvey stated with the higher weight ratings of the newer trucks and the additions of 4500 and 5500 series "pick ups" many people simply don't realize that they are in the "commercial vehicle" zone.

Again I realize KLauber does not have the newer truck issue but many members here may not realize that there truck is different from Klaubers. Or that laws may vary from State to State.

So to sum it up If you travel in NY and are carrying loads over 10k you may or may not be in violation of a NY law. Whether you are a resident or not may make a difference. Further when in NY you may or may not be required to display a DOT# on your truck based on the same maybes stated above. I have now learned that NY is also requiring an endorsement for RV over 26,001lbs I do not now if this applies to out of state drivers as well.

Gary I am simply trying to look out for fellow members and was explaining why A member may be in violation and How an officer may interpret the laws, and how the legal system works if someone is issued a ticket. Thats all. I know I am 100% correct in the information "cut and paste of the law" and how it may be interpreted based on my experience of interpreting it myself and watching others. I see a lot of people go into our court every week as proud and defiant as Harvey they very rarely come out Happy. In 20 years I have had a guilty conviction(or at least a guilty plea) in every incident that has brought me as an arresting officer into a court. Except for 2 one was involving 2 guys cruising around with a sawed off shot gun (admittedly) to rob a gas station one of the defendant got off because he blamed it all on the other guy. Ironically I personally believe the guy who got off was the brains and thought the whole thing up. The other case was a traffic ticket where the judge stated the guy was guilty but felt bad for his situation that he granted an adjournment in contemplation of dismissal. I know how the system works. I will further state its a crappy system.

 

[Mark31]

Kenny61, what area of the state do you live, work in? Mark

 

[GAmes]

GAmes. I believe you are correct in what you state. I would just like to add I do not see anywhere in my traffic laws where it makes an exemption for out of state drivers. Which also does not mean it doesn't exist. It may very well,But the onus will be upon the poor smuck who has to fight it in court. I am simply posting NY laws and giving 2 decades of experience with interpretation of laws and how they can be "twisted" if you will to make the situation fit the law. I am quite sure you have seen this in your travels. Which is also why I said It MAY be illegal in NY. I simply posted an opinion that erred on the side of caution, because I have seen what has happened to some people based on the officers interpretation of the laws.



Also as I believe you or Harvey stated with the higher weight ratings of the newer trucks and the additions of 4500 and 5500 series "pick ups" many people simply don't realize that they are in the "commercial vehicle" zone.



So to sum it up If you travel in NY and are carrying loads over 10k you may or may not be in violation of a NY law. Whether you are a resident or not may make a difference. Further when in NY you may or may not be required to display a DOT# on your truck based on the same maybes stated above. I have now learned that NY is also requiring an endorsement for RV over 26,001lbs I do not now if this applies to out of state drivers as well.



Gary I am simply trying to look out for fellow members and was explaining why A member may be in violation and How an officer may interpret the laws, and how the legal system works if someone is issued a ticket.

First off, commercial regulations are not "traffic laws" There are no exemptions for out of state drivers. Speeding is speeding. Don't add to the confusion with that thought.



Also don't confuse DL requirements with commercial requirements. If a 5500 has a GVWR over 26,000 the driver may be required to have a higher class of DL than before, depends on what state he calls home. My class C DL allows me to drive vehicles or combos up to 26,000 GVWR/GCWR either commercially or not. With recipricy agreements my DL is good in all states. If my state allowed me to go over 26,000 with a personnal use RV (which some states do) it would be insane to try to force a different law on me while traveling in another state. Remember, just because a 4500 or 5500 requires a license plate with the word "commercial" stamped on it does not make it a CMV in the true sense. If your state requires a CDL to drive that vehicle that also does not make it a CMV unless of course it is being used commercially.



I understand your reasoning about alerting members, but we all know that LEOs can be jerks and issue a ticket knowing full well the driver didn't actually violate a law. I received a speeding ticket in Houston about a year and a half ago because the deputy aimed his radar gun at the car that was passing me and mistakenly pulled me over. Once he had me he wouldn't admit he made a mistake and wrote the ticket, knowing it was cheaper to pay it than fight it.



When you get the chance to talk to a LEO find one who has a stack of these in his briefcase. Pictured is the "attaboy sticker" issued after a no faults found roadside inspection from an officer trained in FMCSA regs. This is my latest one that I received in Washington State a month or so ago. If the person you talk to doesn't have the authority to issue these stickers, he probably doesn't have a clue.

 

[KLauber]

Super Spring

Ken, tell me more about these Supersprings. I looked them up on line but their website isn't very descriptive. Are they an add on to the current springs or a new spring pack? Will they work with Timbrens? Approx cost and is it a do it yourself project? Thanks.

I added the 5K model. Its basically an overload spring with rollers. I'll get some pictures. I had the dealer install but its a DIY for sure. Dont' know if they will work with Timbrens. About 450 bucks plus tax



Ken

 

[kenny61]

After much discussion and running around here's the deal and it maybe as Games put it regarding speeding is speeding. This is the way NY looks at it...





Over 10 K combined is commercial. Commercial has certain requirements with weights. NY law states weights limits are done by what is on the sticker of the door (simplified but in fact true) front and rear axle Including GVR. If I am correct Klauber Truck is a 2500 with a a 8800 gvwr his vehicles weight was 9k plus. KLauber in NY is in violation of his GVWR.



Gary and Harvey people properly pulling a RV in NY such as both of you were, would be excused or should I say not screwed with. The DOT guys could care less if you even stopped at a weigh station, However if you were going through a residential area shortcut things may be different. If somebody had KLaubers rig with crap bouncing all around etc etc etc he would be written up. Mostly because it is a safety issue. This is what will happen to you in NY ,maybe not with an RV, but with Klauber's set up if you are in an enforcement zone.



Mostly DOT and the troopers and even locals are worried about safety and crap falling off trailers.



I know you guys posted a while back about GVWR and GCWR and axle weights and to be honest I would like your replies regarding overloading the GVWR vs overlaoding the individual axle weights

 

[GAmes]

Over 10 K combined is commercial. Commercial has certain requirements with weights. NY law states weights limits are done by what is on the sticker of the door (simplified but in fact true) front and rear axle Including GVR. If I am correct Klauber Truck is a 2500 with a a 8800 gvwr his vehicles weight was 9k plus. KLauber in NY is in violation of his GVWR.



Mostly DOT and the troopers and even locals are worried about safety and crap falling off trailers.



I know you guys posted a while back about GVWR and GCWR and axle weights and to be honest I would like your replies regarding overloading the GVWR vs overlaoding the individual axle weights

I agree that over 10,000 is commercial and falls under FMCSA regs, as noted previously.



As for the weight limits, that is a registration (read tax) issue. I believe you stated previously you could register a pickup as a passenger vehicle or with commercial plates,which cost more I would assume. If NY limits the registered weight and actual weight to sticker GVWR they are by themselves from what I know.



I would think all LEOs concern is safety. Weight enforcement also has to make sure road weight limits are no exceeded, (not a problem with pickups), permits are issued for non-standard loads, IFTA fuel taxes are paid, and a lot of other things that normal cops have no knowledge of. They should be and probably are at least a little concerned about RV transporters. We are owner/operators and have to comply with DOT regs. That is what the sticker is for. He checked my logbook, med card, DL, bill of lading, lights, safety equipment, tires, etc, etc. It was a randem check, just like the inspections done on 18 wheelers.



Texas, and many other states, allows you to register a pickup for how much weight you want to pay for, and it is based on the actual weight of the rig when loaded. It is not unheard of for a hotshotter pulling a tandem duel trailer to register his 3500 for 36,000 pounds. Harvey had his '06 registered for 26,000, and I believe his 2nd gen was also. How does NY handle hotshotters?



I have had several conversations about what constitutes an overloaded vehicle with the weigh station guys in different states. Of course you have the 20,000 pound limit per axle (which is a road weight limit, not a vehicle's axle limit) but that doesn't concern pickup drivers. Load 20,000 on any of our axles and the truck would collapse. The safety part is only enforced on exceeding the tires weight rating, and that is not limited to commercial vehicles. Anyone who loads 50 sheets of plywood in the bed of their pickup will likely exceed the tires' limits and are subject to a ticket. If you question that go out and look at the axle weight ratings on your door tag. It will say something like 10,000 pounds with 235/85R16E tires. So if you put H rated tires on, what is the axle rating? That is what makes the door tags pretty much unenforcable as far as actual loaded weights go.

 

[GAmes]

One more thing, Harvey and Kenny. Seeing as how one of you is Navy and the other a Marine I am concerned about the animosity. :-{} As an old Army guy I would think there is a possibility that you once danced together on a boat somewhere. :-laf:-laf

 

[GaryOwen]

Dang, a lot has been discussed in the last couple of days! Maybe some good will come from all this effort by you guys! Glad to hear Ken L is rechecking SC requirements. Will be anxious to hear what the results are. You all have a lot of experience and it is still confusing to interpret all the legalese. Would sure be nice to have all states with standardized legal requirements and wording that is easy to comprehend. As Kenny said, this exchange of information and interpretations will hopefully keep some fellow TDR members out of trouble.

 

[KLauber]

One more thing, Harvey and Kenny. Seeing as how one of you is Navy and the other a Marine I am concerned about the animosity. :-{} As an old Army guy I would think there is a possibility that you once danced together on a boat somewhere. :-laf:-laf

Kenny would be the lead dancer as he was in the Men's department of the USN! :-laf:-laf



Ken

 

[KLauber]

Super Spring Pics

Ken, tell me more about these Supersprings. I looked them up on line but their website isn't very descriptive. Are they an add on to the current springs or a new spring pack? Will they work with Timbrens? Approx cost and is it a do it yourself project? Thanks.

Here are some pics of the Super Spring setup. All I know is the truck rides higher and level when the trailer is attached:

 

[HBarlow]

After much discussion and running around here's the deal and it maybe as Games put it regarding speeding is speeding. This is the way NY looks at it...


Over 10 K combined is commercial. Commercial has certain requirements with weights. NY law states weights limits are done by what is on the sticker of the door (simplified but in fact true) front and rear axle Including GVR. If I am correct Klauber Truck is a 2500 with a a 8800 gvwr his vehicles weight was 9k plus. KLauber in NY is in violation of his GVWR.

Gary and Harvey people properly pulling a RV in NY such as both of you were, would be excused or should I say not screwed with. The DOT guys could care less if you even stopped at a weigh station, However if you were going through a residential area shortcut things may be different. If somebody had KLaubers rig with crap bouncing all around etc etc etc he would be written up. Mostly because it is a safety issue. This is what will happen to you in NY ,maybe not with an RV, but with Klauber's set up if you are in an enforcement zone.

Mostly DOT and the troopers and even locals are worried about safety and crap falling off trailers.

I know you guys posted a while back about GVWR and GCWR and axle weights and to be honest I would like your replies regarding overloading the GVWR vs overlaoding the individual axle weights

The truck's GVWR is generally not enforced in commercial service except as just a number to be added to the GVWR of the trailer in order to catch a non-CDL driver exceeding the 13 ton magic dividing line.

I believe DOT officers generally use the rated carrying capacity of the tires on an axle if there is a weight question rather than door stickers.

I never had a DOT LEO look at my axle weights other than running me across a scale because I always used a dually with a huge margin.

KLauber's rig is a ticket book full of citations waiting to be noticed. His truck exceeds GVWR if anyone cares but, more importantly, I'd bet money he is also exceeding rear axle/tire capacity by at least 1,000 lbs. , perhaps more. The trailer tongue weight almost certainly exceeds the rated capacity of his hitch receiver and he is probably not using weight distribution bars to redistribute some of the excess weight.

I think the only way KLauber is going to get legal is to trade his truck for a dually and his trailer for a gooseneck.

 

[KLauber]

No news yet

This dust-up has me unsure of the laws of me own state! Everyone pipe-down until I do three things tomorrow:

1). Get new brake pads and rotors turned (if they need it) at 8:30.

2). Go back to the big DMV office (not the little satellite office) and have the manager or senior mgr give me the straight poop.

3). Stop by Transport Police office and get their interpretation.



I'll post the results hopefully by the end of the day.



Ken



PS I wont have the trailer hooked up tomorrow!

1). Got severe duty pads on the front binders, the rotor was fine.

2). Got the transmission serviced for warranty (new filter, pan was shiny and clean) and the front diff fluid changed to Amsoil. SO now the entire drivetrain is bathed in synthetic goodness.

3). Stopped by Transport Police office... lights off and n body home. They were all out looking for overweight landscapers probably!

4). DMV... will visit tomorrow... .



Thanks for all the info and I'll try and add the official poo from SC by tomorrow.



Ken

 

[GAmes]

It appears that I would have to take my stock overloads off to install those, but I could be tempted. The pictures are with no trailer attached.