NEED HELP !!!! Mallory takes a dirt nap and damage to my front universals

[dresslered]

Once again Tom, you have offered a wealth of information!

Just how cold is it still in Canada? #ad

 

[Un-Hemi]

Well, Friday on the top of my workbench (at work, that's why it's called a work-bench) #ad
, it was 86F. I turned on the exhaust fans with the door open and it stayed at 86 degrees. Guess it was 86 degrees outside too. Today started out nicely til shortly after noon, when the temp fell from about 75 down to 65 or so, and it started raining with a wind behind it. That's OK, we need some moisture up here. I guess you could say that the igloo has melted!

[edit] Hmmm. It's 10PM here. I just got back from walking the dog. The temp is less than 50, and there is a dusting of snow on the eastern hills. What can I say? This is Canada, eh?

I stopped by the local dealership this afternoon after work and talked to my cohort there. He had a couple of dead Carter lift pumps on his bench; he is of the opinion that they could have wet motors, judging by the physical construction. I still think there is a seal between the bypass regulator and the motor. He's gonna cart one over to his bud's house and cut it open on the lathe; then we'll know for sure.

While I'm on the subject of Carter pumps, one of the pumps he had there had an interesting fault that we discovered while we were examining it; the check ball in the bypass circuit had forced its way past the spring! It was on the wrong side of the spring and fell out while we were fiddling with it. That's why it wasn't producing any pressure.
The check ball is a bit smaller that 1/4" diameter,and there's no way to get it back where it belongs either.

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 05-29-2001). ]

 

[Mick2500]

Tom,
Thanks for the great lesson! I have only one correction and that is the back-emf on the relay coils. In an automotive coil, the primary to secondary ratio is something like 1:1000 or higher. As the primary field collapses, the induced voltage in the secondary is much larger than the actual primary voltage because of the primary to secondary ratio. Normal relays with only the one coil winding will not create a very powerful voltage. However..... diodes should be installed to prevent ANY back-emf for todays electrical systems. The new Bosch Aux light relays now have them built-in right along with an onboard fuse for the switched circuit.

Mick

 

[B. Gill]

Tom,thanks for the post, i dont have much to add just as mick has corrected relays have only one winding coil,but it is correct relays do generate EMF. seems like there maybe bulk damping of some sort or maybe the relay i am using has the diode in it as i have not taken the cover off,using just FLUKE i did not detect real high spikes,but i agree that using a diode is the cheapest insurace one can have.
yes your obeservation ir correct in regards to wiper and heater motors but just a closer look confirms what i had said,wiper motors are geared, dont draw much current and their speed is also low and they dont get used as much as heater motors,heater motors high current drain and relatively high speed thus higher failure rate than wiper motors.
no Tom i did not make the cheap regulater i wish i was that resourceful though actually i got the idea from my 300 SD that has a mechanical transfer pump and it uses that banjo as a regulater.
i have noticed as you have that the stock pump is motor down,you have one carter can you asertain if fuel flows thru the motor ,just looking at it i think it does.
Chris has some very good question and i will let you adress those.
i have one question for every body, the filter set up that i am using,i am using an oil filter as a diesel filter(more like a pre filter as the stock is still in place)basing my logic on, that filter media is filter media. please let me know if i am doing some thing wrong.
with respect.
bob

 

[csutton7]

TT--just some more marbles rattling around in my noggin--the OEM pump has a relay(since my manual isn't here I can't check for sure, but am pretty sure we do) so then if we add another relay to this then the back votage has to pass through two relays to cause any major damage--am I right or can the back voltage make it through the OEM relay also---

OEM set up =turn key on OEM relay activated pump runs

new setup= turn key on OEM relay activated which activates added relay and pump runs

so thinking in reverse

turn key off OEM relay deactivated which deactivates added relay pump off--where can the back voltage go

maybe I'm totally mixed up on this---

another thing-and it's because I don't understand--is the back votage you read enuff to cause major damage to the ECM..... chris

 

[Bigsaint]

Tommy T, yet another great post, thanks for taking the time to experiment with the relays. It seems that the safest way to wire the relay is with the diode. The question is whether the very short microsecond flash of power backwards is going to hurt the ECM ? Does the ECM have a diode inside to protect it from the backwards running current ? Seems that they went through alot of trouble to produce this system, it should but ..... ? We know that Chris and Nowel are running without a diode, no problems so far. If a problem was to appear from the use of a relay without the diode, would it appear as soon as you started to use the diodeless relay in the form of check engine or other error codes being sent from the ECM ? Just curious.

On a lighter and less brain racking note, I'm going to send the "failed" Mallory back to Century Performance today, for a analysis by Mallory and repair, if needed. Hopefully, I'll get an answer as to why mine failed.

Scott W.

 

[B. Gill]

Tom T. i agree with what you say oscilloscope is the only way to check things of that nature, but Fluke is poor man's tektronics #ad
.
after reading your post last nite this is what i did,i removed the filter element as i did become a little concerned however there were no other signs that the filter maybe deteriorating like low pressure etc but just to make sure i took the element off and using a Dremel tool, cut the canister from the base, took the paper element out ,examined it closely and did not see any sign that it maybe deteriorating,looked fine to naked eye,i am taking a piece of the paper element to work to have it looked at under the microscope and will post what i find out. this set up is just a cheap way to have a pre filter and it can keep most of the junk going thru pump and block the stock filter prematurely. this morning i have put a new AC PF-2 element on
(cheap insurance at $1. 99) i had to bump the starter twice before i could hear the regulating valve in the VP 44 open and make that buzzing noise and engine started without any problem.
thanks for letting us know that VP 44 uses the regulater that i have made for the bosch pump(we must be on the right track then #ad
)
as David has said thanks for the wealth of information,it is greatly appreciated.
Scott to answer your question yes the ECM has to be well protected, actually PCBs(printed circuit boards) are designed with each component that is subject to such damage by EMF to have its own dedicated circuit. chances are that you will be ok using the realy without the diode but it is just extra insurance against such damage by EMF that can be quite high for a very short period of time, actually you can feel the shock if you hold the terminals in your hand when the current in the coil collapses.
with respect
bob

[This message has been edited by B. Gill (edited 05-29-2001). ]

 

[HVAC]

I believe I also have found that the lift pump is driven off the ECM (I had a failure of this circuit). For this reason I direct wired a new circuit to power the Mallory when I installed it (I don't us a relay "Saint"). I have a toggle on the dash to actuate the pump. Primitive I guess, but works for me.

Chris, you may have spotted the fuel system relay in the relay box. I believe that's for the VP44 actually.
---------------------------------------------
Nowel/Performance Diesel

 

[JR2]

ok guys I am overwelmed with all this info. I am getting ready to move my stock lift pump to the rear of the truck by the tank. Do I need to add a relay when I do this?? or is that only if I add a bigger pump?? What is the prefered method for extending the wires back to the new location?? Does anyone know where I can get a set of the stock lift pump wire connections?? I was thinking that I could just make an extension of the wiring harness using these??

Any other hints or ideas??

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John D. Rathert Jr.
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01 2500 Forrest Green Sport SLT+ QC LWB 4x4 Auto 3. 54 rear end with all options avail. DC Nerf Bars, DC Grill Guard, DC mud flaps, Line-X bed liner, Leer 160XL Topper, Power Edge, EZ Edge, SPA Boost/EGT Gauge on pillar mount, DTT's tc/vb combo, 275 RV injectors, DD 4" Exhaust and a KN RE0880 where the air box use to be. Fuel Pressure gauge, SS fuel lines and lift pump relocation on deck. See My Truck, Dads truck: 98. 5 3500 SLT QC LWB 4x4, Brother Truck: 92 W250 SLT CC LWB 4x4 (Dads old truck) Winter fun - 2000 Skidoo Summit 700
I am my own warranty station.
*************************

 

[Bigsaint]

JR2, the general consensus is that a relay is good insurance when using a larger pump than the OEM, although I'm still not entirely convinced of it's need yet, I am going to wire in a relay with the Mallory, as soon as I get the truck back from the universal(s) repair. I'm not sure if their is a need with the stock Carter pump, but it couldn't hurt to use a relay, from what I understand. My Mallory was wired directly from the ECM wire with a 14 gauge wire extension, from the Carter pump's original location. The decision as to whether it should have been wired originally with a relay is still out in my book. Hopefully, when I get a reply from Mallory as what is wrong with the pump, I'll know. Right now, I'm thinking that the brushes are on their way out, if you have read my previous results when I tested the failed unit after I removed same from the truck. If Mallory responds that all is well with the pump, then I'll really be stumped and have to blame it on a failed ground. Time will tell.
One thing is for sure, I will no longer di## around with crimp connectors, I am soldering EVERYTHING from here on out, it's easy and fun, once you start.
Scott W.


[This message has been edited by Bigsaint (edited 05-29-2001). ]

 

[B. Gill]

jr2, you can hook up any pump that draws just as much or less current to the stock connecter without a relay,but i would preffer to use the stock connecter to trigger the relay that has its own 12 volts from the battery and yes a diode is desirable it is added protection, it is very easy to solder one on to the relay and they are so cheap,if you really want to extend the wire harness from the stock location, i am afraid that you wll have to make one extention as i am not sure there is one that you can use, one very easy way to make one would be to take the elcetrical connecter off from a failed stock pump and then solder wires to that and extend it as much as you want and it will plug into the stock connecter in MHO.
Tom T i ttok a piece of the paper element to work and looked under the microscope, everything looked ok i did not notice any signs of the media disintegrating. i looked very closely at the gasket and the glue that binds the paper element to be in good shape nothing seemed like it was affected in any way. the filetr that i did cut out with the dremel tool is an AC PF-2.
the filter set up that i have is from summit that they sell to be installed as transmission filter that i had bought but did not install and then this thing came along and i am using it for that purpose with some very little modification, if some one is intrested i will post the modification gladly.
no Tom i have only a FLUKE 77 multimeter. maybe some day i will have what you assumed #ad

with respect
bob

[This message has been edited by B. Gill (edited 05-30-2001). ]

 

[Un-Hemi]

Fellas, Worry Not! The ECM most definitely *does have* protection built-in! The engineers ain't dumb when it comes to making the thing reliable. That statement doesn't mean that we shouldn't take every opportunity to add simple protection to our added components! Every little bit helps add reliability to our systems. Failures are dang inconvenient!

Chris, the ECM drives the lift pump directly. No external relay. I'm assuming that it is using protected transistor switching internally. The evidence is that the ECM's lift pump output voltage is 12 volts, even though the alternator voltage is around 14. This is a characteristic of transistor drivers and protection circuits, which have a minor voltage drop of their own. Relays are, to a degree, less reliable than transistors. More moving parts and a contact that can corrode, pit, and go intermittant!

In the unlikely event that the driver transistors in the ECM were to be blasted by back EMF, they could fail either shorted, in which case the pump would run continuously, or open, and the pump wouldn't run at all. I don't know if either of these conditions would set a code or not. Do codes get set with a failed lift pump?

Bob, thanks for your comments regarding EMF. I couldn't have said it better! You're not using a Fluke Scopemeter, are you? They're neat! What kind of filter mount did you use for your pre-filter? I'm sure that others are interested in your inexpensive pre-filter! At $1. 99, you could change the cartridge once a month, and still be money ahead. By the way, my only concern with the PF-2 filter would be with any 'rubber' components or adhesives that are used on and in the filter. Diesel fuel may affect the 'rubber' parts differently than oil. The media will probably be stable. 'Rubber' nowadays could be any kind of synthetic material, including rubber.

In the aviation industry, there is great concern about today's auto 'gas' swelling and deteriorating the various flexible seals and hoses in the fuel system, because of the wierd formulations and chemicals they are putting in car 'gas' today. Some guys have been using car gas in light aircraft for years, and only in the last 10 to 15 years has this become a problem.

One more comment: Adding a diode to a relay that already has a diode built-in will not do any harm. If you're not sure, add the diode! Just get the polarity right the first time! The banded end of the diode goes to + (positive). Radio Shack has billions of 'em.

Thanks you all for your kind comments, fellas. I know I've rambled a bit, but I think it's important stuff.

You're all very welcome!

My next post is gonna be "yup" or "nope". #ad


Tom



------------------
Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

 

[Bigsaint]

Morph, glad to hear that your's is still rocking. My new Mallory is in and the unversals have been replaced, now all is good again. I plan on installing the relay tomorrow night, if, for no other reason, than piece of mind. Personally, I think your rolling the dice by not having some type of pre-filter before the Mallory. Once I had mine apart and examined the tolerances of the gerator, I could see how sediment would jamb it up quite easily. One bad batch of fuel could cause some real headaches IMHO. Mallory recommends a filter than can trap down to 40 microns.

Scott W.

 

[Morphious]

Just an update on my mallory, I have now rolled over 30,000 miles with my (new) pump. It is running on the stock wires from the original lift pump, no pre filter, no regulator, and ran -8an to the stock fuel filter. I have had no trouble since I installed the pump. It stays at a steady 11-12 at idle and normal driving and drops down to around 9-10 at WOT accelerations.

Morph

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'99 2500 4x4 QC Std transmission, Purple (usually Mud Red), 10 Disc Changer, 285x75Rx16 BFG Mudders, Amr. Racing Baja Wheels, Gooseneck hitch, 275lb King Klaw front bumper, Towing/Camper packages. DDIII's, Exhaust, TTPM, Boost Module. Fuel Pressure, EGT adn Boost Guages. Mallory Fuel Pump. AGR Beefed up Steering Box. (fastest farm truck around). And can't forget the hydraulic PigSticker.

2001 Yamaha Raptor, dropped tooth on front sprocket, sand skate II tires on rear, CT Racing Exhaust, Pro Flo Air, Hipo Cam, 11:1 piston, DG Nerf Bars, DuraBlue 2+2 Axle, +2 swingarm, +3 A Arms, Dyna Jet carb kit, and Works tripple rate shocks for the front.

1965 Chevy 1/2 ton Pickup, 350-350hp/2spd powerglide, PS, PB, Disc Brakes on the front, Tilt, Fuel Cell, 3. 73 posi.

26ft Gooseneck Flatbed Trailer, 2 horse bumper pull, Round bale Trailer.

1960 Farmal 340 Diesel Tractor.

 

[Bigsaint]

Last post, then I'll this this topic die it's slow, impending death. I wired in the realy today, actually, I went with another 30 amp. relay from Radio Shack, I'll return the 20 amp. head light relay. They had no diodes, as described before, just led diodes and the clerk was no help at all. So I still have to get the diode and solder it in, seems like cheap insurance, anyway. I did a voltage test, with the truck/Mallory running, and now see 13. 8 v at the pump connection. I also soldered and heat shrunk all connections. Time will tell. I'll post a new topic when I get the results back from Mallory. Thanks again for all of the great advice !!!

Scott W.

 

[Archive]

Saint. . Look at the top of the relay it will tell if it has a diode in it. . some have a resistor instead of a diode, they both do the same thing. . I looked today. . and abut 90% or the relays I had, and one or the other. The ones that did not were some old relays that I had.
It will not tell you in writing but in a diagram. . I'll take a pic of one tomorrow and post it. But I do not think U will need to install the diode.
Bryan

 

[Un-Hemi]

AWFERPETESSAKE! Sometimes radio shak peepul can be so DUM!

Shoulda done this in the first place. Sorry. I didn't think anybody would have trouble with radioshack.

Radio Shack Catalog Numbers for:

1N4001 900-2869
1N4002 900-2870
1N4005 900-2873
1N4007 900-2875

Usually, they come in packages of several for a buck or two. I can't find my R/S consumer catalog. You could try www.radioshack.com for these diodes.

Try Mouser Electronics: phone number 1-800-346-6873. Ask for part number 583-1N4007 for 1N4007, or part number 592-1N4148 for 1N4148. I'd go with the 1N4007, just because it's really beefy, more that adequate for the job! As far as I know, there is no minimum purchase.

Jameco Electronics 1-800-831-4242. Part number 36011 for 1N4007.

Anything from a 1N4001 to 1N4007 is just fine. The only difference is the peak reverse voltage, which is no less than 50 volts.

These diodes are as common as dirt. ANY electronic parts sales store will have something..... even radio shack.

If ya can't find any, email me with your address and I'll send what you need.

Tom

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

 

[Archive]

Here is a pic of the relays. . #1 has a diode in it. . The diode is usually Black with a silver stripe. #2 has a resistor, usually tan or green, sometimes the reistor is under the coil. #3 is an old relay, and does not have either.
I hope this helps.
Bryan

This is my frist try at posting a pic, so we will see how many times I have to edit this post.

#ad

 

[Un-Hemi]

Thanks for the time to present the picture, T-Nut. It worked perfectly. Good lighting, too. Wish I could do that.

A resistor is better than nothing, and is not polarity-critical, but still doesn't suppress the back-EMF like a diode. Without knowing the value of the resistor in your relay, I figured that a 470-ohm resistor would be the minimum value that would be practical for a 1/4-watt resistor (as it is, it exceeds the power rating of the 1/4-watt resistor), and put that across my Radio Shack relay's coil. The coil still spiked to over -100 volts. At least, when the coil is open-circuited by the switch, the energy stored in the coil has somewhere to go.

Are you familiar with resistor color codes? can you tell me the value of the resistor in the relay? If you're not familiar with color codes, just tell me the colors and I'll decode them, thanks.

Tom

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

 

[Bigsaint]

Thanks again, Tommy T. and Bryan. Here's a scan of the back (packaging) of my Radio Shack 275-226 30 amp. relay. I don't see a diode or resistor in this pic.

#ad


Scott W.