Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) need more injector power

[Jim Fulmer]

Wayne, sorry about that, yes the A1000 is an Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump that I use as a stand alone... ... got to keep the ole reliable stocker in there.



On the return line I just ditched the overflow valve and put in an external regulator, nothing wrong with an overflow valve though. In your truck I would stay with an overflow valve and get a spare 2 piece so you can rob the shims out of it to set the fuel pressure.



Yes I'm running a single SPS 66 but will upgrade to a Silver Bullet before long. I do run 4K's and every pump except a 215 needs them in my opinon, 3K's are fine but 4's will fuel a little harder on the bottom. I have a set of 5K's but haven't tried them yet, I'm sure the pump will become really touchy.



Last thing is, mine is a daliy driver too. I've been know to drive 800 miles a week, or make a trip to Canada



Jim

 

[bgilbert]

How much attention is II giving their "Dragon Flows"? I do know you can get a set of 5x18's from Scheid's cheaper than what was posted earlier. Although getting most shops to tell you anything about what 'attention' they did to them is another story.

 

[JeppinHackSaw]

Give chuck at New Era Diesel a call, he can build whatever you want

 

[WaynesWorld]

Jim,

You are the best!

You always give me the help & ideas I need!Oo.

I like the shims thought but I better put in the fuel pressure guage first.



The 4,000springs will be next.



bgilbert,

Can you explain attention ?



JeepinHackSaw,

That is quite a handle,

I'll give New Era Diesel a call.



Thank You All,

Wayne

 

[Highfinance97]

How much attention is II giving their "Dragon Flows"? .

I wonder if they remove the filters





Michael

 

[JTEdieselram]

Wayne, I run dragon flows from industrial injection and love them. They ARE 5x 0. 018, but they have a ton of other odds and ends inside to make them flow as much as a 5x 0. 022 (acording to Brady ), these injectors are very streetable, and I run them in my daily driven 12v. DDP4's are pretty big themselves, it sounds like you need to save the $$$ on buying new injectors and use it to send your pump out. Upgrade it to a quick rate cam with 13mm plungers and barrels and some . 120, or . 093 lines, and you will have more fuel than you know to do with. You are going to need turbo(s) after that! Your injectors can only flow as much fuel as has been given to them.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Jim,

You are the best!

You always give me the help & ideas I need!Oo.

I like the shims thought but I better put in the fuel pressure guage first.



The 4,000springs will be next.

That's what I'm here for, no reason for you to spend money on something you don't need, or try something I already have and know the results.



Start with your fuel pressure like you stated and see what it idles at, then at 2K no load..... this is checking you overflow valve, the WOT pressure is checking your pump and supply. If you can't hold 10-15 psi there is something wrong because I can and I'm still running the stock lift pump with 160K on it! The only other difference in my stock system is I run a 6AN line from the filter housing to the pump, did this for another application and just kept it in place.



Way down the line when you working on supply and pressure remember that if you give the pump alot of pressure you will make it think it's bigger than it is, I have proved this to be a plus. This is why I use the external regulator, I can hook up a boost reference and keep 100 psi of fuel pressure at max boost. I have still yet to try this on mulitple dyno runs, last time out I had too much wasted fuel to try it but now with a slightly calmer pump setting it may work better.



Jim

 

[WaynesWorld]

Jim,



I'll get on to the fuel testing ASAP.

Please let me know about the dyno test when it happens.



Thanks A MILLION,

Wayne





JTEdieselram,

The DDP4's are , I'm told, 5x. 014 vs the 5x. o18 or o22. II's

Either way they are a step up. :-laf

I'll do my fuel pressure testing first then we will see what the wallet has left inside it.

My pump has been bench tested to about 480 cc's. That was my biggest performance boost, by the seat of the pants. Or the better half's screams.

So first things first then on to the next issue.



Thank You,

Wayne

 

[CRohwedder]

I think you need bigger delivery valves or laser cuts and some bigger injector lines. I had schied diesel work on my pump, they do very good work, they told that i did everything i could except P and B's . They said if i do that i would be giving up any hopes of driving it on the street.

 

[DBraunig]

Travis,

Where & how much for the DF's

How are they compared to DDP4's ?

I think more pump flow might be the answer.



Thanks,

WAYNES WORLD

I had a tuned 180 pump on my truck (430cc's) and swapped it for a 215 pump that i set up. Same gsk, same plate, same dv's, same afc, same timing. I set everything on the 215 the same as the 180 trying to compare.



All things equal i picked up almost 5 mph in the 1/4 mile. I could clean up the 180 to a light haze under boost..... on the 215 the smoke was ridiculous even under boost.



I only got 5 passes on the 215 pump and broke two output shafts in a week :-laf , so i haven't had much time to tune it really. I just got back together with a billet output shaft and billet flywheel last night. IMO the difference between the 180 and 215 pumps is big



Dave

 

[Hammer]

The Dragon Flows are definately 5x18's but it's not the hole size, it's the attention inside the injector that makes them shine... ..... this you have to have an EDM machine to do and the knowledge.

Jim. .

With respect to you and not trying to make this sound like I am questioning your tests I have a question or two for you.



My first one would be how you could even begin to make a comment about thier attention when its a well known fact that they have had many of their Dragon Flows come back for one problem or another. There have been enough of them sent back that I know of to know I would have never made that comment. The set of Dragon Flaws that I ended up with through a deal out here were still in the box,unopened and never installed. When installed in my truck they never ran right,popped and missed and killed the truck on the dyno for power. I had them sent out to a neutral shop to be checked and the popoffs were off 43% from one to six,and you say attention to detail. I wonder if your just being a cheerleader here for them.



The second one I have is what fuel pressure are you truely running at?. In one post you say maintain 45-50 with your A1000 and then later you say you are maintaining 100 with the regulator,which is it?. How long do you expect the pump cam to last at 100psi?. Man I love your smoke and mirrors games,you must have made that 640 on your "stock" 215 pump too.



Waynes World...

With 480 cc's of fuel one would ask why you feel you need more?. You said your pump was flow tested and you have the sheets so I will ask this. .

Where does it flow 480cc at and how long through the test?. Did your pump man tell you where it went into full rack travel?.



By taking what you had done by him and changing the internals to suit what you feel you need it will certainly ruin all of his work. I am one who feels lazer cuts are not a street item due to the excessive smoke. Guys have made more power without them but I do realize its your truck. The 4k's are ok but will make the truck twitchy to drive. Someone reccomended 13mm barrels and plungers which are parts that are not needed for what you want to do. Trust your pump man,talk with him first you are missing something simple. The 460/980 on the 180 pump is respectable with a auto with 480cc's but I am betting the bank that your problems lie in how he has the pump setup,not the parts.



I have learned alot recently on pumps but I am no expert. I know what I had as my pump which was on my truck when flowed only did 360 with the afc on it and 415 without it. With the afc on when I did a round of pulls it made 480/998. The pump then had high flow dv's,a custom cut 4 plate,18 degrees of timing,East Coast Diesel Injectors and a Garrett GT37R Stage 3 Roller Charger. It was not near what I had hoped for so I went back to the board to work and addressed the 3 problems I found. One was a different pump done by a reputable shop,the others were a leaking return line which had split(the braided part which runs over the bellhousing and has plastic inside of it)allowing air into my system and a nasty restriction in the turbos exhaust housing which was causing high drive pressures and nasty high egts underload. I will be going back to rebaseline my truck on the jet soon and test the injectors and air boxes I have. Time will tell what it does... . Andy

 

[WaynesWorld]

Andy,



Wow , that was a lot to type. :-laf

I'm not sure how to read the sheet that they printed, but here goes;

The first 4 lines I'm not able to tell what they are for.

Actual line #4 468. 2

line #5 469. 7

line #7 460. 4

line #8 467. 7

line #9 495. 8

line #10 488. 0

Does that tell you anything?

The pump rack travel was set for full travel.



My question for you is why did you run your pump without the AFC then reinstall it to do your pulling? If you did 480/998 with it on flowing 360.

why would you want the AFC back on when you had more flow?



I do think that the pump is the area where it could give me more.

That is why , I will first install the fuel pressure gauge to check that. From there the overflow valve will be addressed.

After that, I'm assuming a better pump check may be in order by a different shop. Although , they recommended laser cut DV's & bigger lines right from the start. That would replace my 191's & stock lines.



Kindly , let me know how your truck turns out.

Plus, remember my truck is a daily driver.





DBraunig,



I'm sorry to here about the breakage from the pump change.

I just cracked my drum behind the input shaft which was billet. My mistake. Now I have billet in & drum , along with out shafts. then the upgraded triple disc was added. OUCH!!!

Can you get back to me on how the truck runs after the trans changes?



CRohwedder,

That suggestion by Scheids is where I don't want to go myself. I have 25 lights & 5 stop signs to go thru one way to work. #@$%!

We will get started as soon as the weather breaks around here. Snow in mid April sucks----



Thank You everybody,

Wayne

 

[PKemp]

Wow... . I gotta go an get some beer and samiches!!!!

Everyone in the shop is pullin up chairs an crowdin around the screen.....

 

[WaynesWorld]

PKemp,



What no girls in skimpy outfits handing out the beer or making those sandwiches ?



WAYNES WORLD

 

[PKemp]

Nope. Just a bunch of old greasy diesel mechanics. This is interesting stuff. :-laf

We pop test a lot of injectors in our shop and examine a lot of dv's and always examine what comes across the table just to see what kind of quality there is out there. Our experience is: If you want it done right, do it yourself ( which obviously is a bit much to ask for most anyone). We've seen just about everything and I can say only one thing for sure: There is not much consistancy and very little quality out there.

A lot of injector builders talk the talk but can't walk the walk.

There has been a lot of good stuff in this thread from everyone and we've been examining and talking most of it over. We experiment a lot from what a lot of you bring up.

A good pump man is a joy to find. Keeping one is even harder. The demands of production, keeping costs down and profit reasonable are really tough for a shop. The equipment is also very expensive. You could have the best equipment around but not have the man who knows how to really use it.

But the beer is cold and the samiches will do, so rock on! You've got a big audience here. This is great. :-laf

 

[Hammer]

My question for you is why did you run your pump without the AFC then reinstall it to do your pulling? If you did 480/998 with it on flowing 360.

When the shop who did my pump ran my old pump on the stand the first time,it was ran as it came off the truck. It had the older larger center diameter overflow valve in it,not the new updated one guys have been running. The AFC Housing was pulled all the way back the way it was after the plate was changed long ago during engine work and the plate centered. It was ran like that on the street and dynoed like that,so for my own personal note I wanted to know what I had been running on. While on the dyno when it made the 480/998 the settings were as stated above and not changed. It was the first it had been dynoed since the motor work was done and I wanted a baseline to go off of so the tune was left as it was installed. The reason the AFC was removed and the pump ran again on the stand was to see what it would make with it removed. I was searching for the reason the truck defueled so hard and killed the torque right after it reached max torque.



The new 215 pump which was built for the truck doesn't have lazer cuts(I still feel they are not a street drivable item for daily use). I have found two fuel leaks which were addressed this week,one was my return line(again,it was just done not long ago) and the other was the braided part of the line which passes over the transmission bell. I am waiting for a FASS to come in and the rest of the items needed for my install and I am removing the mechanical system and the factory fuel lines. The FASS is going on to help maintain pressure and keep me from hanging over the motor changing the fuel filters(I have tired of trying to become Gumby and bend where I don't). It will also allow me to remove the failing factory steel fuel lines as a source of leaks. The factory fuel lines have been discontinued from Ma Mopar for ALL of the 12v second gens. New FASS will not be on for my next dyno trip but should be on for my Spring show.



Any idea of what boost your pump man had your pump set to go into full rack travel?. I agree that you need to check pressure and your tune-up. At my Fall Brawl 2006 dyno rip Bandit1 made 539. 04/1024. 91 with a automatic equipped 12v and a 180 pump on fuel alone. A few years ago I seen Rammin On do simular numbers with his White 96 that I call Casper equipped with a Schied built 160 pump and a PDR HX40 and a auto. The flow your saying you have tells me that you have the fuel,it using it efficiently that all of us 12v guys need to do to make good power and torque numbers.



The only thing I know about the larger lines(. 093) is they claim to allow a tad more on the top end. The . 120's are way to big for street use and will cause the motors to lope bad. I will know when I get to dyno as there is a set laying in my truck to install after we do the baseline runs. I am also taking all three of my air filters for my AFE Stage 2(Pro Guard 7,Mega Cannon and the new Pro Dry-S)to see which provides me the best numbers. I will let you know how I make out after I roll.



I understand yours is a daily driver and all I can say to that is this...

With 160,000 on mine and it sitting outside I guess its a daily driver,LOL. Seriously,ask anyone who has seen my truck in person,I am a tad fickle and tend to detail it ALOT, keeping it as clean as I can. But,it is the only mode I have for transportation other than my sneakers and its a long walk to work... ... ... Andy



PS-Still awaiting for our resident test pilot Jim to explain which fuel pressure he runs at since some of us are confused by his posts.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Jim. .

With respect to you and not trying to make this sound like I am questioning your tests I have a question or two for you.



My first one would be how you could even begin to make a comment about thier attention when its a well known fact that they have had many of their Dragon Flows come back for one problem or another. There have been enough of them sent back that I know of to know I would have never made that comment. The set of Dragon Flaws that I ended up with through a deal out here were still in the box,unopened and never installed. When installed in my truck they never ran right,popped and missed and killed the truck on the dyno for power. I had them sent out to a neutral shop to be checked and the popoffs were off 43% from one to six,and you say attention to detail. I wonder if your just being a cheerleader here for them.

Andy, if your or anyone else has had issues with the Dragon Flows I'm sorry, but that has nothing to do with me. To be very honest I called Brady after the last dyno event to talk to him about the results and told him that I would like to make a tiny change to the injectors, he agreed that it would work and I sent then to him after I swapped the 370's back in that I had sent to him while I was gone on my 33 day road trip (work) 4 of the 370's were bad, 2 he salvaged.



On that Dyno day trip I drove from OKC to Ft Worth, to Paris TX and back to OKC and still got 19 mpg using a 3% correction for 265 tires vise 245's.

The second one I have is what fuel pressure are you truely running at?. In one post you say maintain 45-50 with your A1000 and then later you say you are maintaining 100 with the regulator,which is it?. How long do you expect the pump cam to last at 100psi?. Man I love your smoke and mirrors games,you must have made that 640 on your "stock" 215 pump too.

You guys get alot of info from me but at times you fail to put it all together, there are things I talk about and there are things I don't talk about. Like the Dargon Flows I will not tell you'll what Brady tells me that he does on the inside.



There are actually a few thing on the fuel pressure. The last time I checked WOT pressure I was able to hold 45 psi or so with the aux on with no boost reference hooked up to the regulator. Since then and since the last dyno event I added another feed line to the pump and will try that on the dyno but it added 5 psi of boost and allot more fuel to burn.



The 100 psi of fuel pressure comment comes from being able to hook up a boost reference to the regulator, 50 psi of boost, 50 psi of initial fuel pressure gives you 100..... call it a guess, and the pump cam should be fine but the pump housing will errode, remember I run around at 35 psi using the stock system. At the last dyno event I ran no boost reference as I didn't feel like I needed it and I had allot of smoke, the next day I realized I had a tad too much plate in and backed it off 1mm and it ran or acted better this is with the Dragon Flows, with the 370's it likes that little bit more.



So I will cap off the fuel system now and give you even more info. 12AN suction to the A1000, 10AN line from there to the bigger FS1001 filter and housing (got it from Haisleys) then a 10AN line up to the pump were it goes into a 1/2" Y block. One 6AN line goes into the original Nipple fitting/Banjo bolt from Haisley's kit, the other 6AN line goes to the front of the pump to the inlet above the Rack Plug, that is an M18 x 1. 5 fitting to a 6AN. Then the overflow valve is removed and I use an M14 to 6AN banjo to the regulator and then tap into the stock return line.



Yes the 640 number was from my stock 215 pump, just like I have said before. Stock cam, p&b's, dv's, dv holders but has been to the bench before I bought it and I run a #6 TST plate.



Sorry for the late post, must have missed it.



Jim

 

[Highfinance97]

Then the overflow valve is removed and I use an M14 to 6AN banjo to the regulator and then tap into the stock return line.

Jim,

When you say you remove the OV and go to the regulater,

do you mean another regulater just for return??



And if so what do you regulate it at??



The stock return line is fine??? no need for larger lines??





Michael

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I do not run a regulator on the supply side, if I ran it all the time I might, just don't see a need for it. I run that Aeromotive regulator in place of the overflow valve, there no bad but I like the simplicity of being able to adjust pressure, add boost reference if needed or hook up a gauge.



Heck you could hook up a boost reference in a valet switch if you wanted too.



Yes the stock return line seems to be fine.



Jim

 

[WaynesWorld]

Jim,



Just a few more questions, if you don't mind ?

Where did you get your Dragon Flows?

Do you run the fuel pressure gauge inside the cab?

Do you think my 17* timing is enough?

If not how much more?





Hammer,



I like that you care for your ride. I had my interior changed to hand stitched leather, with special designs in them, put in my truck. I rolled up over 145,000 this week. OOPS, time for the oil change.

How did you find the fuel line leaks?



My thanks for the exchange of ideas , gentlemen.

As always, I'm still learning with you.

WAYNES WORLD