Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) need oil pan help

[SRehberg]

I need the expertise of this forum on a problem with my '96 I just bought. Some dummy tightened the oil drain plug to the 60 lbs/ft multiple times, without changing the plug etc. Now the plug has tapered flanges (no big deal, I plan to use Geno's upgrade) but the pan now matches the plug taper. I did the first oil change since I bought the truck, so when I put a new gasket on, and plug, torqued it to 40 lbs/ft. , guess what dripped. Not just an occasional drip, but it weeps slowly. Appears the sealing washer is only making contact around the very outer edge and nothing inbetween, so the area around the plug threads doesn't get compressed to seal. Short of replacing the pan, what can be done? I can't believe this is the only truck that has experienced this, so I'm counting on the wisdom of the membership to have a cure short of replacement. Thanks to all for any advice.

 

[illflem]

If it's badly distorted short of replacing the pan about to only thing you can do is clean it up well, use a thick gasket with RTV sealant with a drain valve you will never have to remove again. Geno's has an assortment of these valves.

 

[PGaither]

I have the same problem with my 96 I bought in June! The drain bolt actualy broke on me during my 2 nd. oil change! But the sides/flange only broke off (the treads were o. k thank god), but thats when it started leaking)Someone on here told me to buy a oil drain bolt gasket that is rubberized steel from Cummins. They had to order it it was about $3, I'm going to try it this week as I need to change the oil, I'll let you know if it helped. I was told if that didn't work to trace/make an extra gasket and use that as well as the ruberized gasket, and only hand tighten it, or tourque it to no more than 40 ft. pounds (not the 60 ft. pounds recomended my Cummins, or in manuals). If that doesn't work I'll try the special drain plugs that have a drain valve built in from Geno's Garage. Hope this was of some help to you.....



p. s-hey, is it just me, or is it a real ***** getting tha oil filter threaded back on?Oo.

 

[PGaither]

Oh, by the way I didn't do my first oil change & mess it up myself (it was done at a Quicklube place). I was told that the bolt is actually weaked by being tourqued repeatadly (an over tourqued to often) over time, and I actually asked mechanics at my local Cummins dealer about it, and they said they Tourque them to 60 ft. pounds all the time, and rarely saw this problem (2 of them never saw it happen), but most people on here feel 60 ft. pounds is too much (including myself). Handtighten, or go no higher than 40 ft. pounds.

 

[SRehberg]

I got desperate, so I found an "O" ring that was snug around the stock of the drain plug (at the bottom of the threads and next to the flange), cranked it into place, then torqued to 40 lbs/ft. Knock on wood, it is holding, but I think I'll try the suggestion by illflem. The rubberized washer... is it the same as we normally use? The $3 price is good, the dealer wants almost $7. My other truck I had to have the pan changed but it was under warranty at the time; the dealer had screwed the plug up and the pan.



The oil filter isn't bad, but you're in for a treat when you change the fuel filter! I invented a new language when I went after that one; diesel running down your arm etc. plus no room to work is an experience. Let me know how you make out with the new gasket; is your pan tapered at the opening also. ?



Illflem, the pan isn't real bad, just tapered so not alot of sealing surface is left, so the gasket can't quite do it's job. Any particular RTV sealer you would recommend?



Thanks for all the help.

 

[illflem]

An o-ring generally doesn't work well in an application it wasn't designed for. Unless there is a groove to contain the o-ring when you tighten it the ring squishes out.

If the pan isn't too bad some folks have had luck using a sanding block to flatten the sealing surface back out.



I would use the high temp orange RTV if you need it.



I lost a sealing ring for a GMC last week in the waste oil barrel. Was very surprised at the selection of sealing washers my local NAPA had. Some had a rubber center with steel on the outer edge, looked like it was made for a damaged pan.

 

[P Madrid]

I have come up with a solution for this problem, a Nylon Sealing Washer. My truck has the taper problem also and since I'm a Tech at a Cummins dealership I have seen my fair share of the same problem. I have tried every thing from o-rings, copper and aluminum sealing washers to wrapping Teflon tape for a temp fix. I contact several sealing washer companies but no one had a nylon washer in our size. I then decided to have them made, placed an order to make them (1100 washers), them tested several in friends and customers trucks and they work. We now sell these as an option and a local Dodge dealership is using them as well. I found that by using a HD drain plug the leaks seal at 20-35 lbs ft . I have an add on the classifies for those who are interested.



Pablo

 

[SRehberg]

I will probably use a new rubber-coated washer with the orange RTV for now, as I have to order the other. I need to get the truck back on the road before this weekend. I'm taking it to Brandon (caretaker for the dowel pin jig) for some work to be done. The drain plug was the least of my worries when I thought I would change the oil, but Murphy was under the truck with me!



Sounds like Pablo has hit on a fix for this problem, and has probably seen quite a few of these things in his line of work. The plug from Geno's sure puts the stock one to shame. Another of D/C's great designs; if Geno's had designed it, this pan issue wouldn't be an issue.



Thanks for all the help; this forum is by far the best ever.

 

[PGaither]

I changed my oil 2 days ago (Monday), and installed the $3 rubberized steel washer on the drain plug, tourqued to 40 ft. lbs. and it doesn't seem to be leaking so far (if so very, very little). JUst thought I would let you know how it wored out... ..... It it does start leaking I'll let you guys know and post a thread here, and Ill get the drain plug from Pablo.

 

[FParisi]

I got the EZ plug from Geno's + had a problem with it dripping - Used an o-ring just tightened till I could see the rubber. That was 5/99 about 75,000 mi ago with no problems.

I took it off a few months ago to check it and there was very little o-ring deterioration.

Frank

 

[PGaither]

Yep, its still leaking just a little bit (much, much les than before) after I put in the ruberrized stell $3 washer from Cummins. So it definately helped, but didn't totally stop the problem. I think next oil change, I'll get the $20 plug from Pablo in California, and do it right... ... .

 

[PGaither]

Oh, by the way, my oil pan is indeed "tapered" , thats the cause of these oil leaks it seems... ... Someone should tell Cummins to lower the TQ. specs from 60 ft. lbs. to 35-40 ft. lbs. ,nand create a better drain plug (like pablo did... . ) its beyond me why mylocal Cummins dealer in Dedham Massachusets claimed they tighten the oil drain bolts to 60 ft. lbs. all the time... ... .

 

[SRehberg]

I went to Geno's website (I can't find my catalog) where he has two different types of drain valves. Which one is the most reliable or seals the best in this damaged pan scenario? I sealed mine up for now with the orange hi-temp RTV as Illflem suggested, and the plug is staying dry. I let it drip all day after draining the oil, so I could clean the surface well, then applied the sealer to the plug with the rubber gasket. Ran it home with 40lbs torque, and so far so good.

 

[P Madrid]

The drain valve plugs are a good option since you never have to remove them unless the valve fails/leaks. Do clean the area really good before applying RTV, let it drain over night or a whole day and clean it with Contact Cleaner. Then allow the RTV to cure. If you are in a hurry you can always do the vacuum cleaner trick at the oil fill, to keep it from dripping while you clean the area. I do have the sealing washers separate if some one already has a good drain plug or drain valve. Remember that drain valves do not drain all the oil from the pan, about 1/2" of oil does not drain. It would be a good idea to remove the drain valve once in a while to do a complete drain.



Pablo

 

[P Madrid]

In regards to the wrong torque value, the blame goes both ways.

Dodge for supplying the wrong information, this drain plug is only for the Dodge application, and Cummins for not checking on Dodge for the correct information. The 60 lb ft is use on all the other 5. 9 and 8. 3 drain plugs, a good tech with common sense should also realize that the flange on the Dodge drain plug will not hold that high of a torque.



Pablo

 

[SRehberg]

Pablo, is the pan available for the Dodge through Cummins, or is it a special part strictly through Dodge? I know the dealer wants a fortune for the pan.

 

[SRehberg]

Is the Dodge pan available through Cummins or is it strictly a dealer part? They want a bunch at the dealer.



One thing about these pans that bothers me is the fact it can even suck the metal up in the first place. I know the threads are inside, with slots for oil drainage, but it mashes the pan nice and even all the way around. You would think the plug would come up against the pan which is supported by the legs of the threaded part in the pan, thereby stopping any taper action. The only thing I can see is the lip of the pan must extend inward toward center, more than the is supported by the threaded internal piece. i. e. the drain opening is smaller than the supported area inside the pan, allowing the over-torqued plug to cave in, pulling the pan with it. Seems like a pretty lame setup for all the problems it causes.



I think I'll try the drain valve, I change my oil every three months which still comes out amber colored, so I probably drain more than I need. Anyone have any experience either negative or positive with the drain valves from Geno's?

 

[illflem]

The only negative thing I've heard is that some, not sure which types, don't drain all the oil because the threaded portion extends above the bottom of the pan. The problem isn't so much that you're not getting all the oil out but rather you're not getting the worst oil out since sludge accumulates on the bottom of the pan. Folks have overcome this by drilling holes in the threads that line up with the drain grooves in the pan threads when the valve is torqued down.

A search will find which valves these are, there are pictures of the drilled holes in at least one thread I can remember.

 

[P Madrid]

The oil pan can be purchase from Cummins and will be way less than at the Dodge dealer. Some oil pans have the numbers stamp on the bottom or you can use your engine serial number to get the correct pan.



Pablo

 

[PGaither]

Hey Pablo (or annyone else w/ info... ), I have some spot rust on areas of my oil pan (its not throught, or leaking though) , is it safe to clean it up a bit, and treat it with oner of those rust neutralizer/treatment solutions? So it doesn't get worse... Or should I just leave it alone? I'd really like to stop it before it gets worse & then leaks (then I'll need an oil pan, which looks like a pain to install). Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated... ...