Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) New advancements in Turbos (Ball Bearing)

[BigDan]

Ive heard that DD, Piers, and ATS are comming out with BB turbos. My question is will these eventually replace traditional turbos. I need a bigger turbo like yesterday (Mach 5's and a stock HX 35) I was all geared up to get a full B1 but now im having second thoughts. Are these companies planning on having BIG BB turbos or just little HX40 type's. I need a BIG turbo that will give me max HP, pull like a freight train and cool this beast off. I dont want to drop $1,600 on an obsolete turbo and get passes by someone in a BB turbo.



Ive also heard that BB turbos dont last as long. I know PSD's have been using them also.



Any thoughts and info???



Thanks

BigDan



P. S I am willing to be a test muel for any of these companies

 

[BigDan]

WOW this must be super secret stuff... ... ...

 

[RonA]

Big Dan.

For your 1600 you can buy the new twins piping kit from PDR and an HT3b. A few other odds and ends and you will be able to hang with the ball bearing turbos for a while. Probably out last them too. Just another option.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I believe that garrett has had BB turbos for a while. They are notoriously unreliable. Turbonetics sells some really nice stuff but it's pricey. $2k+ see this, on pg 3...

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/dwnld/2004_Price_List.pdf



I prefer twins over singles anyway.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I hate to say it - but I agree with RonA.



A set of twins with an HT3B and your HX-35 will do you just fine with your injectors. We have twins down to a science on these trucks - there's no reason to be afraid of them anymore.



Don't get me wrong - I'd love to have a VNT/VGT turbo with a ball bearing CHRA... but the money they get for them is still a bit too much. In time, they'll go down in price... just like everything else.



As far as ball bearing turbos being unreliable - they've been very durable in race application gassers. I have a lot of friends running a lot of different ball bearing Garrett based turbos on gassers and they don't have any problems. Diesels seem to be a different story. To be honest, with diesels we ask a lot out of turbos... with the boost levels we run - and the miles we put on them.



It's really difficult to make a (single) turbo that will be tough, last a long time, spool quick and cost cheap dollars... It's pretty easy to do that with twins.



Matt

 

[BigDan]

Yeah I know twins would be ideal with anything above a Mach 3 but I really dont need it even with the 5's. A b1 will be just fine.



Now you say I can do twins for under $2,000!!!!! OK you have my attention... . Will there be any performance and reailibity increses between my old 145K mile HX35/14 w/ a HT3B twins or a brand new B1. What is the HP limit on these twins. Could I step up to a mach 6 or above. Wont I need head work to keep the twins from blowing my head.

 

[RonA]

B1 is going to be simple to install. Twins are more complicated. 50 psi boost from twins is less likely to blow head gasket than 50 psi from B1. Twins will run cooler egt. But from what you posted about wanting a big turbo and big hp you will be a blown head gasket looking for a place to happen. Might as well plan on head work either way. You are not that far away, I'm between Marysville and Grass Valley. Come up and drive my old truck. Its not a hot rod, but it will give you an idea of what small twins feel like.

 

[KLockliear]

Yep, we've been working on a dual ceramic BB turbo for a while (well, it was done with R&D a year ago - now having it all cast up has been taking some time). We should have a production run prototype in January, and if that testing goes well, production units in 4-6 week.



What I've been told was there will be 3 different turbine housings. With those three, it will support 350-700hp. The compressor is efficient into the mid 50's for boost numbers. The larger shaft and wheels inertia is offset by the BB's, making it spool about the same as our current Jammer turbo (a bit quicker than a 40), yet reliable for nitrous/big HP apps.



I don't have final pricing yet, but the goal was to keep the 3G KIT under $2k, and the bolt on 12v/24v price w/downpipe around $1600 or so.



Only time will tell.

 

[COMP461]

I really like the B1 bolt on for the 03 and up cummins , called a B104 its relativity inexpensive, and will make enough boost for a reliable 550 + hp with very little commotion , its a total bolt on with everything going in place. the guy to talk to is Ken at Turbo Auto Diesel 602 272 5311

 

[Tomeygun]

Yep, we've been working on a dual ceramic BB turbo for a while (well, it was done with R&D a year ago - now having it all cast up has been taking some time). We should have a production run prototype in January, and if that testing goes well, production units in 4-6 week.



What I've been told was there will be 3 different turbine housings. With those three, it will support 350-700hp. The compressor is efficient into the mid 50's for boost numbers. The larger shaft and wheels inertia is offset by the BB's, making it spool about the same as our current Jammer turbo (a bit quicker than a 40), yet reliable for nitrous/big HP apps.



I don't have final pricing yet, but the goal was to keep the 3G KIT under $2k, and the bolt on 12v/24v price w/downpipe around $1600 or so.



Only time will tell.

Under $2k ??



thats nice, very nice... Now as long it does not take as long as the EDGE juice... woah!

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Yes indeed, it will be nice. I put on the Jammer without reading any instructions. All the parts fit perfectly and it was easy to figure out. Very few kits are so well organized and complete. The turbo has performed flawlessly for about 15 months, and everyone on the board knows that I never got anywhere near that much time out of a turbo on Sickly Lessee, a couple HX35s, 3-40s, 1-H2, 4-55s and 1 Bell MSB were on Sickly. Junior makes more hp than Sickly did for about half his time, and so I am very satisfied with the Jammer. I am eagerly awaiting the new BB turbo from DD so I can bump up the fuel a bit Oo.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

What a load??

Yes indeed, it will be nice. I put on the Jammer without reading any instructions. All the parts fit perfectly and it was easy to figure out. Very few kits are so well organized and complete... .

I should hope that the self proclaimed HP king should find ANY turbo install intuitive.



I'm not knocking the turbo because I've never seen it but implying that a turbo is somehow hard to fathom installing is ridiculous. any single turbo that includes a downpipe should be a sub-2hr install even with no instructions. there aren't but 8 bolts/nuts and 2 clamps to worry about. the hard parts are the old, inevitably rusty, bolts on the exhaust pipe.



A "complete" kit should be:

turbo

oil drail gasket

turbo gasket

downpipe

DP clamp

if the stock stuff doesn't work. . new oil feed line/fittings, drain line.





Sorry everybody for the rant but an obviously biased plug for a cohort's product must be called.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I really like the B1 bolt on for the 03 and up cummins , called a B104 its relativity inexpensive, and will make enough boost for a reliable 550 + hp with very little commotion , its a total bolt on with everything going in place. the guy to talk to is Ken at Turbo Auto Diesel 602 272 5311

The B104 will flow enough on the compressor for 550+ hp but that turbo spins up like an HY or faster. the turbine housing is not suited for that kind of HP. Its an extreme quickspool turbo not intended for all out hp on a single turbo. egts would skyrocket.



To make high hp on a single you need a big exhaust housing, or a big wastegate, or maybe even both unless you go exotic (variable vane).

 

[COMP461]

Yes indeed, it will be nice. I put on the Jammer without reading any instructions. All the parts fit perfectly and it was easy to figure out. Very few kits are so well organized and complete. The turbo has performed flawlessly for about 15 months, and everyone on the board knows that I never got anywhere near that much time out of a turbo on Sickly Lessee, a couple HX35s, 3-40s, 1-H2, 4-55s and 1 Bell MSB were on Sickly. Junior makes more hp than Sickly did for about half his time, and so I am very satisfied with the Jammer. I am eagerly awaiting the new BB turbo from DD so I can bump up the fuel a bit Oo.

I would hope you could install your own product, and so on lol

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Yeah I know twins would be ideal with anything above a Mach 3 but I really dont need it even with the 5's. A b1 will be just fine.



Now you say I can do twins for under $2,000!!!!! OK you have my attention... . Will there be any performance and reailibity increses between my old 145K mile HX35/14 w/ a HT3B twins or a brand new B1. What is the HP limit on these twins. Could I step up to a mach 6 or above. Wont I need head work to keep the twins from blowing my head.

HP is cheap. 100% duty cycle power is expensive.



If you want to make a lot of power for 1-30 seconds then you don't have to be very efficient doing it. You can with stand high temps, drive pressures, use nitrous or even propane.



If you want to have a truck that you can drive in town, hot rod, and tow with you have to build an induction system that is robust enough to operate at 20-600+ hp. To do it with a single exhaust hosing is nearly impossible. it'l either flow too little(high egt & drive pressure) or too much (laggy). Then you have the problem with super heating the air charge because you are running 4&5:1 pressure ratios on a single compression stage.



This is a bit simplified but twins are the way to get your cake and eat it too. they are the most versitile induction system for an engine with the operating range of the ISB/ISBe/6bt. to ask a single turbo to operate from 0-600hp from 800 to 4000+rpm efficiently is not realistic. It's VERY easy with twins



I can build a 600hp truck that you could send your wife/girlfriend shopping in without worrying and still be fun to drive.



FWIW,

Mark



on edit... i'd refresh the bearings in the hx35. I have a customer making 640hp on a 24v using that + a hx40 compressor. BHT3B-26 twins on an automatic

 

[COMP461]

The B104 will flow enough on the compressor for 550+ hp but that turbo spins up like an HY or faster. the turbine housing is not suited for that kind of HP. Its an extreme quickspool turbo not intended for all out hp on a single turbo. egts would skyrocket.



To make high hp on a single you need a big exhaust housing, or a big wastegate, or maybe even both unless you go exotic (variable vane).

it made good power , , and was easy to put on . I do agree that it would, and dose get a little toasty if you leaned on it for a long time , like a long hill, but that where you should slow down below 100 on a hill pulling a big trailer I had a waste gate spacer plate waterjeted out of stainless , and it alows the waste gate to open much farther , same as on my race motor , I have made them available to any one who wants them from the guy who shot them out for me , call MAT at S&t water jet 940 851 8055

 

[Diesel Freak]

I have to agree with Mark! 500 hp for less than a minute is possible with a single turbo, but there is no way to make 500 Continuous HP with a single turbo!!!

 

[Diesel Freak]

Just incase some of you don't make it over to the Competition Forum.



http://www.tdr1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119235



The Link to my Term Paper is in the opening post. It should answer most of your questions about sequential turbocharging.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

DF,

excellent paper. A BHT3B is rated at. 76kg/s or precisely the 100lb/min you were looking for (cost is ~$450) and it can be pushed to the extreme of 700hp. Jim fulmer showed us this. I have customers well over 600 peak HP.

Your calculations are spot on for 500hp continuous. I've maintained 54# of boost for over a minute while towing and sustained preturbo EGTs of 1325*. We can do that because the pistons in our engines are oil cooled to keep them from melting. After a minute or so the coolant gets a bit warm. You quickly find the limits of the stock cooling system.



Again... VERY well written.



Later,

Mark

 

[KLockliear]

Sorry everybody for the rant but an obviously biased plug for a cohort's product must be called.

Well, let's set the record straight then. Joe doesn't work for us, doesn't even live in the same state anymore. Just a customer once again.