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New Cummins Exhaust Gas Recirculation system

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Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but not new to TDI's or diesels. EGR is a nasty thing, which is why I'm strongly considering buying a CTD before Jan 1st. The combination of sooty egr smoke and oily ccv fumes are what cause the hard carbon buildup in TDI engines. To minimize this you can dial down the EGR duty cycle with the vag-com diagnostic software, and modify the ccv.



A typical ccv mod is the 'elephant hose' mod, which simply re-routes the ccv oil mist flow with a heater hose all the way down to the bottom of the car, so that the mist just escapes or drips onto the road. The hole on the intake where the CCV was previously connected to is plugged. This isn't the most environmentally friendly way to do it, but with as little blowby as tdi's have, the drips aren't really a problem for garage floors, etc. Other folks hook up various filtration to their ccv system, which get more complicated.



Many tdi'ers have eliminated their egr completely with various aftermarket or home made straight pipes, and blocked off the flow from the egr cooler. Some have simply disconnected the vacuum line to the EGR. Either of these methods will keep the intake clean with no EGR operation, however you will have a check engine light. I anticipate defeating this very check engine light will be an issue for future cummins with egr owners who try to disconnect their egr's. A diode device with vacuum switch has been developed to fool the ECU into thinking the EGR is working on TDI's, however, who knows with the Cummins...



I must say any modification of the emissions systems on your vehicle that results in increased emissions is a violation of federal law, and should be done for off-road use only!:D :cool:



How's this for 40k miles with no mods? Don't ya want to scrape some of that out and spread it on some hot toast?!;) P. S. this is NOT my intake!
 
Just a reminder...

Don't forget that the Cummins EGR works differently from the TDI set-up. The EGR gases are mixed right at the intake, no inter cooler problems, and better control of temperature and rate of flow... . the VGT and the egr mixer valve accomplish this along with the processing of many other sensor's inputs. Also, the inside of the stainless egr cooler itself has "turbulators" that are designed to disrupt air flow, preventing the soot built up problems. I have to work on this stuff, so don't assume that I am making it up either, also, I have yet to sell anything cummins, so no conflicts, just trying to clear the fog that the competition has blown out their stacks :D :D



Russell
 
R. E. Miller is absolutely correct on all accounts. The Cummins EGR system introduces EGR at the intake manifold. EGR does come with a power and economy hit by nature, but there is no such thing as a free lunch. HPCR fuel systems and VG turbos help pick up the slack and close the gap on the difference.



Cummins EGR engines have been around in Europe for a few years now and the new ISX has MILLIONS of test miles already. This is not something that has just been thrown together with the hope of working.



Along those same lines, the std. ISB that was released in Oct. of 2002 is an EGR engine. This is the engine that is installed in trucks, buses, etc. If you are concerned check into the performance/durability of one of those applications. The Dodge ISB is specific to Dodge.
 
Well it sure sounds like the Cummins EGR is a well thought out system. That type of blockage above is typical of TDI VW's, but only here in USA. The EGR system has worked in Europe with no clogging due to their much lower sulfur/higher cetane fuel in Europe. The reason they all clog here is the 500ppm sulfur limits we have. Sure some stations average 350, but in some countries like Sweden, the sulfur ppm limit is like 8ppm! Once 2006 rolls around and ULSD is mandated here(hopefully), those problems will go away. TDI owners in California that run ECD-1 ULSD have no clogging intakes. Also, the power and economy hits are not as much of a concern to me as the general dirtying of the oil and engine with the EGR. I like that the '03 has HPCR and no egr:D :cool:



Do you guys think when EGR is introduced that the oil change intervals will be reduced? I would bet they will.
 
From what I understand, and mind you, I have not paid a ton of attention to the oil change intervals and such; but the new oils that were developed for these applications is suppose to handle it. MHO, yup, increase drain intervals, just makes sense.



P. S. learned about the ACERT engines, it will cost 1. 5 times more to maintain an ACERT engine due to the increased maintenance intervals... ... so..... own a trucking company, then think about 1. 5Anything, filters, oil, etc. I still respect Cat, but that is huge.



Russell
 
Originally posted by DragRacer

EGR does come with a power and economy hit by nature, but there is no such thing as a free lunch. HPCR fuel systems and VG turbos help pick up the slack and close the gap on the difference

apparently, and more. see this page where cummins is describing a 2% fuel economy improvement in the B series engine, using EGR/VGT.
 
R. E - yes the new CI-4 spec oils are designed to work better with EGR/CCV equipped engines. However they can only do so much. Most of the TDI'ers that have clogged intakes have been using high quality extended drain CI-4 oils like Delvac 1 or Amsoil... still clogging. Granted the cummins may not clog, I would have to say the EGR will REDUCE oil drain intervals, not extend it. Its adding a lot more dirt to the oil.
 
Originally posted by DLeno

apparently, and more. see this page where cummins is describing a 2% fuel economy improvement in the B series engine, using EGR/VGT.



i'm willing to sacrifice 2% fuel economy to not have the headache of the egr.



I know thats not normal of most EGR set ups. Was there something wrong with that one



looked like my old 6. 5td tahoe's intake with the egr valve dumping into the intake... before i disabled the egr system with a "test" gasket :-laf. even if the egr is dumping the gasses right into the air plenum that is in the head, it will build up like that. there is always a bit of oil that will be in there from the turbo, and the valve guides/seals... and you can never really have an exhaust brake with that type of system. if you do, you will get even more oil in the intake when the valves overlap and oil is blown in off the cylinder walls and valve stems. people in the 2nd gen had problems with some sensor [intake air temp???] getting buggered up from soot from exhaust brake building up on it when the exhaust had higher pressure than the intake while using the exhaust brake. now there is something that says that the VGT turbo will allow it to be used as an exhaust brake. well you are going to get pressure going back into the intake, and it will bring with it some oil from the cylinders. not much, but some... that will collect with the egr soot and you get that slimy vasoline/graphite like mixture building up in the intake. ...
 
Originally posted by LightmanE300

Granted the cummins may not clog, I would have to say the EGR will REDUCE oil drain intervals, not extend it. Its adding a lot more dirt to the oil.



I personally agree completely, but my professional stance does not allow me to fully lean one way or the other, but with my personal equipment, I always change at the earlier stage for pm's, and believe that longevity and EGR will be relative to when the oil/filter changes were performed, i. e the higher the frequency, the longer the lifespan.



Russell
 
Originally posted by Floor It

The last talk with a cummins rep said that the EGR system was not offically been said to be on the 04's. Due to the cost of it chrysler did not want to pay for. They are really looking in to a type of catalitic convertor instead of EGR. So who know's until the 04's start rolling of the lines, AFTER january 1 ,04'.



John



John, I do not think that a catalytic converter is an option at this point. The current levels of sulphur in #2 diesel screws up the converter. This is one reason that extremely low sulphur fuel has been mandated for 2006 (?).



Once sulphur content is removed a converter can be a very effective method for reducing particulate emissions.
 
Jim, yes 2006 ULSD with 15ppm sulfur max will hopefully go into effect as planned. 2007 or 2008 they said 10ppm. . This will certainly help reduce emissions. Lubricity additives will become more important. The process that removes sulfur from diesel fuel also strips the fuel's lubricity. Its a common myth that sulfur=lubricity. Sulfur=soot folks :)



The part that frustrates me at the same time, is that from what I've read, they arent going to increase the minimum cetane number:mad: I know both my vw and mb's engines are designed to run on 49 cetane fuel min. Grrr. 50 cetane IMO should be the minimum. In reality,I wish they'd even mandate 45cetane. Not everyone has access to premium diesel, and no engines like the 40 cetane rotgut fuel we currently have in most areas of the country..... :rolleyes:
 
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I'm not sure the CTD is particularly fincky about the diesel it gets as long as it is clean.



I have access to limited quantities of Jet A (Kerosene) at $. 50/galon. Mixed 50/50 in my old 12 Valve it ran great. Never had any problems.
 
I read a good article in a Heavy Trucking Trade mag almost a year ago about what Cat and Cummins as well as a few other OEM's were going to do about the new regs. Cummins had alot of info about their New "Cooled" EGR system that they had developed. They had designed a EGR system that Cooled and Cleaned the recirculated Exhaust gasses to a unbelieveable level. Maybe Gunk buildup won't be a problem. And I haven't seen anyone mention the "Other" side effect of EGR on a Turbo Diesel??!! Lowered EGT's !! Maybe we will be able to use these system's to our advantage?. :D



As for the VGT's... . On stock or slightly bombed will they will be ok. For any real bombing they will not work. Why? For one they will not hold up even as well as the Holset's we have today. (I have seen more than 30 of them that had blown up during Testing with the ISB's. And second they will still only perform like a HX35 with adjustable size turbine housings.
 
As far as I know, EGR causes HIGHER EGT's. Imagine your engine running straight fresh ambient temp air, or running hot burned exhaust through it twice, which will be hotter? My tdi has an EGR cooler, and the EGT's are still higher with EGR than without. Mine is currently blocked off at the EGR cooler, and there's a straight Dieselgeek Race Pipe in it's place, that connects the intercooler pipes and the intake... . Lower EGT and no more cloggy clog clog. Gotta love it. Dyno verified +4 RWHP is just a small bonus. :cool:



'of course' that mod is for off road use only!!:rolleyes:



Lets face it, there is NO benefit to EGR other than reduction of emissions.
 
At least in gas engines, EGR lowers combustion temperatures not because it is cooler (it isn't), but because it dilutes the unburned air/fuel mixture. This reduction in combustion temps is specifically designed to reduce Nitrous Oxide emissions caused by the higher cumbustion temperatures. I don't know how this will work in the CTD, but theoretically at least, EGTs may in fact be reduced.



100 Proof
 
The fact is that EGR engines actually do run hotter, and soem truckers who are unaware wig when they watch their temp guage this time of year. The EGR engines are also running different injection timing to optimize combustion, which as you have guessed... . raise overall temps, but again, cummins has everything in order, the problems typically arise with low budget OEM's :-{}

Russell
 
Guys, here is a paragraph from an email that Cummins sent to me, in response to my inquiry about the time frame for the implementation of EGR systems. Although it doesn't appear to be concrete, this seems to lead me to believe EGR might not appear until Jan 1. The recent info posted that a dealer said all 2004's would have the EGR was alarming tho! Hard to know what to believe, but I sure hope what this guy from Cummins says is true.



"There will undoubtedly be two basic ratings for the Dodge Cummins: standard and high output, and the California/Maine/Mass group will have their variants, but the 2004 engines made until January, 2004 will have "carryover" ratings, i. e. : basically the same at 2003 ratings until the January date. As we understand it, the 2004 you would order therefore would have the same ratings as 2003..... the engine change will come later "
 
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