Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) New guy looking for some advice on used purchase

[Chris Bethurum]

Hello



I am looking at what I believe would be called a 98. 5 2500 2wd manual club cab short bed with 90k miles. I am not sure the 24 vs 12 valve is an advantage after some things I have read. What do I need to zero in on when looking over a service record and the truck itself?



1. I have read lift pumps can be an issue but upgraded factory parts are available? Any other mechanical issues to look for/ ask about?



2. Do they have unit bearing front end or the traditional bearing in hub of old?



3. I hear they have a hybrid Dana 70/80 rear consisting of a Dana 80 center section stuff and 70 axles? They are all full floaters?



4. I will probably spend at least the first year evaluating the vehicle, starting to tow race car etc. around 6K lbs. It seem the Cummins is the best to mod in the result/dollar category? Does this apply to the 24 as well as the 12? In a nutshell what should it cost me to do exhaust, turbo, injectors, misc air intake etc. to get me say 300 hp and 600-700 lb ft with an early 24 valve? I guess a chip comes into play as well. I hear the 5 spd shifts better, but have looked at the numbers and it appears quite a bit weaker than the 5600 and ZF6 etc. How much quieter if any are the 24s vs 12s? Can the 24s be manipulated to change sound levels with changes in programming? How well can the factory engine respond to a chip alone?



5. I like fuel mileage as well, and have heard nothing beats the Cummins with a manual. 20-25 mpg cruising? Anyone run an over drive or higher rear and get the rpm below 1500 at 60 mph for cruising? Further mileage gains?



Anything you can offer is much appreciated.



Thanks



Chris

 

[Sticks]

I'll answer what I can



1. LPs are still an issue, and it is mostly because of the location. Your best bet would be to buy an brand new one, and mount it down on the frame rail just forward of the fuel tank, and install some 3/8 to1/2 ID fuel hose, and weber or areoquip fittings, and lose the banjo fittings. This can be done for around $60 (this does not include the cost of the pump). Install a fuel pressure gauge while you are at it.



2. I don't know



3. I don't know



4. Exhaust $300 - $1000 depending on who you go through

Turbo $250 - $2000 depending on who you go through

Injectors $250 - $1300 depending on who and what size

Intake $60 - $300 depending on what brand





For your goals, you could just remove the muffler to get more flow and noise. Cost at the muff shop $30. A good 4" turbo back system can be had for $400 HP Gains 1 if you're lucky.



Turbo can be left stock for those HP levels, but you could send it in to HTT to get it converted into a HX35/40 hybrid for under $300, spools a little slower than the HX35w but moves more air.



Injectors $500 on a good set of stage II or III's (80 or 120 hp). With the stage III's you will want the turbo upgraded and the 4" exhaust.



Any number of fuel wire tapping boxes from Edge, Blue Chip, BD, VA and so on. $600 - $1000, some come with gauges, all will add about 100hp



Intake - $100 BHAF if you like paper filters, or $200 AFE if you prefer oiled. Personal opinion, avoid K&N in diesel applications.



So here is a sample package;



Product - Cost - HP

Dodge 5sp - Paid - 215

Edge Comp - $600 - 100

Stage III Injectors - $600 - 120

AFE Intake - $200 - 1

HX 35/40 rebuild - $300 - 50

4" Exhaust - $400 - 1

Gauge kit (Fuel, EGT, Boost) - $300 - 0

Clutch (gonna need it now) - $900- 20

Boost Cooler (you've gone this far)-$500 -120

Relocate the LP - $60- 0

TOTAL - $3,860 - 627

HP conversion to the rear wheel 550 +/- 25



Prices are parts only, and if you shop around to all 100 of the different vendors looking for the best price. Count on another $1000 for miscellaneous crap that will be needed. HP is going to be close - Very rarely are the gains as advertised. This stuff got put on your truck, not their test truck.



5. Mileage is a crap shoot. The More stuff you add, the wilder the game. Weight takes mileage, some BOMBs take mileage, others add. 1500 rpm at 70mph = 3:54 rear end, 30" or larger tires = decrease (hp or torque - I can't remember which) and **** poor towing performance in them thar hills. The alternative is a $3000 overdrive unit bolted up to the rear of the transmission. You will have to drive some 1 million odd miles to recoup the expense. The #4 sample package should get 18 - 22 mpg hwy pretty easily. The other big factor is your foot.

 

[Chris Bethurum]

Thanks for that



That sounds like a wild ride. I probably would go that far at least at first. The dollar/result ratio sounds pretty good. Are stock 5 spds holding up to that empty? I imagine using that kind of potential for any length of time while towing anything significant is rough on the transmission. I hear the 5 is easier/quicker to shift. Are there any parts/modders available for the 5spd? When did the 6 spd become available from the factory?



Anyone willing to comment on the basic pros and cons of the 24 valve vs 12 valve motor?



Any other comments on any other predominant inherent problems with that truck?



Thanks



CHris

 

[pgleavitt]

53 block

I'm not sure what years are involved but there has been some problems with the 53 block cracking on passenger side,rear area. Check out the search forums for more details. Get comfortable as much has been posted. I have the 53 in my truck and will not loose any sleep over it. I have 72,000 miles and good so far. Other members have way over that w/o problems. I still feel that Cummins is far superior to any other motor. Keep reading and get ready for some heavy addiction to mods. and bombs.



Pete

 

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Chris Bethurum

Thanks for that



That sounds like a wild ride. I probably would go that far at least at first. The dollar/result ratio sounds pretty good. Are stock 5 spds holding up to that empty? I imagine using that kind of potential for any length of time while towing anything significant is rough on the transmission. I hear the 5 is easier/quicker to shift. Are there any parts/modders available for the 5spd? When did the 6 spd become available from the factory?



Anyone willing to comment on the basic pros and cons of the 24 valve vs 12 valve motor?



Any other comments on any other predominant inherent problems with that truck?



Thanks



CHris

Chris. You need to do three things first and foremost.



1. Find out if your KDP (Killer Dowel Pin) has been taken care of yet. Read up on it in the First Generation section.



2. Find out if your 5th Gear nut has been taken care of. For that one you will have to do a search.



3. GET GAUGES!... First and foremost. They will not make your truck go faster, nor will it make it stronger. They will encourage others to race you and you will lose for the time being. You need to know where you are at as a base line, and Fuel pressure is a very critical item since you are out of warranty. Fuel Pressure, and EGT at the very least. Boost would be the third, but not mandatory. You may as well since people will start asking you how much boost you are running, and it is a helpful diagnostic tool.



ALSO - Be warned, the early model VP44 that can be found on the late 90's truck are prone to suicide when a fueling box is attached that pierces the pump wire, or connects to the VP44 wire harness. As a rule if it lives for 1/2 an hour after it is attached, you should be OK. Most of the failures occur within 20 minutes, after that your odds go up astronomically. Put $1300 in a no touchy fund now so you will have the money if the time comes. They are real proud of that injection pump, and I have yet to find out where the gold is at inside them.

 

[Chris Bethurum]

Thanks guys



I am looking at two trucks at the moment. One is a 98. 5, the other is a 96.



The guy with the 96 says he is ase certified, and is selling it because he bought a friends 4X4. Interestingly the 98. 5 is for sale for the same reason.



Guy with the 96 mentioned he has changed the 'pmc' ?. My guess is he'll know about the kdp and just about anything else I ask. The 98. 5 is held by a dealer, and I 'always' repeat 'always' have trouble getting any info of much value out of a dealer. It is a Chrysler dealer, and the most recent owner is an employee of the dealership. Would you guess they would provide me with a dealer service record if I asked? That's about the only potential light at the end of the information tunnel I see with them, other than Carfax.



On the 12 vs 24 valve question. How much more/less power at a given boost/fuel level will the 24 allow vs 12. Theoretically the 24 ought to have more valve area and therefor provide less resistance to getting boost (potential induction air) into each cycle. Can anyone confirm/deny this and put some numbers or direct me to some numbers that deal with this question?



Is it cheaper to mod a 12 vs a 24 (lightly/moderately/heavily)

How do aftermarket injectors compare ioperationaly and price wise for each motor? My guess is turbos are fairly standard for either.



Sticks,



I saw an digital display by Edge or at least being used with Edge product. My guess, is it was being used in place of the traditional analog guage cluster. I think I would proabbly prefer something like that. Know anything about them?





Chris

 

[SMorneau]

I like 12 valves because they are simple and the problems seem to be more straight forward. I don't like the idea of having fuel system trouble. I do like the idea of dialing my horsepower on a box.



I have not had good luck with the 5 speeds. Others have done much better. I only have about 20,000 on my six speed so I can't say much except it shifts slower than the 5 and its a little harder to find the gears. Buying a used 6 speed has an advantage of being able to test drive the heck out of it.

 

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Chris Bethurum



Sticks,



I saw an digital display by Edge or at least being used with Edge product. My guess, is it was being used in place of the traditional analog guage cluster. I think I would proabbly prefer something like that. Know anything about them?





Chris

I don't even know if that is available yet. And if it is, it may be for the 03 & up trucks anyhow. If you get a 12 valve you are stuck with the 2" round gauges, digital or analog (the exception being the x-monitor - fugly IMO). 12 valves are all mechanical, so there will be no electronic timing boxes to put on.



The 24 valves on the other hand give you the option of a variety of different boxes, and some of them do have the gauges built in. Powermax, Blue Chip, and VA to name a few.



12 valve = All wrenchin' to get the power. Bolt stuff on and go.



24 valve = Mostly plug and play, just a little wrenchin'.



12 valve = lower stock hp.



24 valve = higher stock hp and a lot of engine types as they get newer.



REMEMBER the cost for 1 hp is on average $10 per. How far do you want to go, and where do you want to start from?



Both engine types have their pros and cons - which makes them pretty much equal.

 

[Chris Bethurum]

Thanks for the info.



The 12 vs. 24 is a tough one for me. I will probably end up negotiating for a 24 first. Keep the 96 close by.







I have come up with more questions.



1. What is the warranty on the Cummins? Is it 5 year or 100,000? From some of the posting I have seen it makes me think it might just be 100,000 as long as the truck isn't 15 years old or something.





2. Seeing talk and warning about not running the NV4500 at low rpm in 5th. What is this about? Something to do with torque handling while at low gear speed? Something to do with the 5th gear nut back off problem? I saw someone mention keeping it above 1700 rpm in 5th. This puzzles me but also troubles me because it also goes against using a diesel, particularly a Cummins, for low rpm flexibilty and efficiency. Can someone clear this up for me?? 1700 rpm is relatively low but I would think a person could eek out even better mileage at 1300-1500 rpm if they chose to do so.





Chris

 

[Sticks]

5 years OR 100k miles whichever hits first.

 

[Chris Bethurum]

Thanks



Figured that on the warranty.





Anyone on the avoiding 5th gear at low rpm? I would assume these means at higher torque levels at low rpm. Is it indirectly or directly related to the 5th gear nut back out problem?

 

[Chris Bethurum]

Thanks