New Member, Needs Help!

[Paychk]

I checked with Cummins Quickserve and input your engine serial number, it shows your pump as:



CPL#0600 "VE" type

(Non-Certified) fuel pump for

180 BHP turbocharged and

aftercooled "B" series 6

cylinder engine 2500 RPM with

a peak torque of 445 lbs. ft.

at 1700 RPM. Has 12 volt atr

fuel solenoid and 2. 0mm

tubing. With FR9187 and

FE9701.



The original P/N was 3907648 superceded by 3916964, the new P/N shows these same specs.

 

[Greenleaf]

I'm looking at my manual now and have the same information before me. The Bosch pn is 0 460 426 091 Yes, a VE injection pump is what I show.



I also have the supersession History in my manual. It changes a few times.



Don, you need to look for the pump numbers... on the pump.

 

[bgilbert]

Wow, 2. 0mm tubing. Thats bigger than the 1. 6 and 1. 8 tubing used in the Dodge apps.



Ok now that we know its a VE, pull that solenoid!!

 

[DonTX]

Photos

OK, here we go again. Took about 50 photos, eliminated all but a few, gotta shoot totally blind.

You guys are really getting me confused now, here is a copy of the customer spec sheetsorry it is fuzzy):

Also a poor photo of the id on the pump. Think it says VE P etc.

It is my understanding that VE is simply the abbreviation for the german word meaning "distributor", so VE only means is is not an inline pump,correct?? Also notice on the pump, there is no VE number, only a P (whatever the heck the P means).

It appears clear to me that the spec sheet date says clearly VP14. Thanks for helping me hash this out guys, VE's for Dummies it may become! :-laf

It really appears we (I) may be just playing with words, since it appears that a VP14 is in fact a VE type pump?? I wonder if any of that really makes sense.

 

[bgilbert]

That is a ' R ' on the data tag. Common letter iirc. Why does the data sheet say bosch ve and then bosch vp-14? Maybe the vp-14 is for something else. Either way we are argueing over little stuff.

 

[DonTX]

I tend to think you are right, but: 1. There certainly is a VP14 Bosch injector pump, same as on the spec sheet.

2. The stamping (R or P, looks more like a P from blowup of camera stuff) wouldn't it be stamped VE44? Where does the 44 come from, don't see that stamped on it anyplace?

Surely someone has an old Bosch pump laying around that has some stuff on it to clearify that.

Does it LOOK like a VE 44? I must admit I have never seen one. Why wouldn't it come on out and say VE44, instead of VE "type" then VP14? Where are all the Bosch guys when you really need one

 

[bgilbert]

Where are all the Bosch guys when you really need one.

Didn't KTA say he heard of them and thought they were mostly used in Europe? Nuff said.

 

[TomThomas]

WOW! Took 3 days but I finally finished reading this post. I gotta say thanks Don, I didn't know ANY of this stuff before I began reading. I kinda question where the debris in your 2nd factory filter came from, not that it's the "main" problem, but neither was the injectors (lots of little gremlins). Electrical problems, as you know, can be very misleading. Seems like during the late '70's early '80's most mfgrs were doing really "not smart" engineering feats.

 

[DonTX]

Really Feeling Down This Morning

Just returned from another encounter with my enemy, the Cummins. Convinced that the 5 volts getting to the stop/start solenoid was the problem, I eagerly disconnected the wires to it, and ran a dedicated jumper cable connection to it. Double checked with a voltmeter, yep, 12. 2 volts to that sucker direct from a Chrysler minivan!. Audible clicks and sparks when connecting even from several feet away. Listening carefully to be sure the starter actually engaged before it roared to life, I listened - - - - to cranking and cranking!

Darned thing was NOT going to start no matter what. Finally gave it a very little wiff of starting fluid, off she went as usual. I let it run for 20 minutes or so, get warmed up (it is eighty some degrees here outside temp). Pulled the wire, it stopped instantly, reconnected it - - and cranked and cranked. Its problem has been getting worse and worse. At first it was cranky, then it would only start when warm, now it absolutely will NOT start untles it gets a wiff of starting fluid.

Only thing to report, is that the smoothness of idle still leaves me with a desire to smooth it out. It is not the rolling search stuff, just as though it was getting fuel thru a clogged system or such, and as the debris shifted around it fueled better or worse.

OK, so where are we now. I guess BGilbert gets his wish, the solenoid has GOT to come off next. Since the solenoid is definitely getting juice and is turning on and off, I don't expect to find much in there I guess, but is the next step to removing the pump I suppose. Damn it is a bear to get to.

 

[Greenleaf]

The proper method to troubleshoot a shutdown solenoid it to use a DVOM (digital volt Ohm meter), set on Ohms. One lead to the threaded post. Other to the solenoid body. You will see 7. 8 on a good unit. The factory spec is 7. 4 +- . 05 Ohm.



I'm not sure if it HAS to be removed to troubleshoot the electrical portion of said solenoid. I could do that right now as I have solenoids here I'm tripping over and one still in a pump. I may try it both ways and report back with my discovery.



It's obvious, the mechanical portion of your solenoid is in working order.

 

[DonTX]

That is what I have been trying to say, it appears to be in good working order. I have to pull a lot of crap off to get to the solenoid - and the pump. I had forgotten about the Ohm test, gotta do that for sure. Since I am not as good as I once was, but am as good once as I ever was, I am wondering if I really want to pull the pump myself or not. Heck, I am 68, sold all my groovy tools, don't have a real shop to work in (storage garage deal) heart attack, coronary artery disease, diabetic etc, etc. Maybe time to swallow my pride and let someone who does that routinely mess with it.

Someone somewhere had indicated pulling the plug in the center of the distribution lines, but I don't seem to see from the drawings where that would help much. Since this has always ran thru three filters, dunno how stuff may have gotten there anyway. Remeber the character in Lil Abner cartoons, with the cloud of gloom always hanging over his head? :{ :{

 

[1stgen4evr]

Well - - - - My opinion is that you don't have a solonoid problem. You are wasting your time to fool with that. Ether would not have any influence on the operation of the solonoid. So it it runs period, it isn't the solonoid. And, when you turn off the switch, the engine quits.



Since you have checked and know that fuel is being emitted through an injector (you did do that didn't you) at cranking speed, the next possible thing is that the timing has slipped and you are not injecting fuel at the correct moment. The ether would cause the initial start and once running it breaths on its own, so to speak.



You could change the timing without removing the pump. I would look into that before striping the pump off the engine. That is going to be a big time chore.



Keep in mind that you can take my opinion and fifty cents and get yourself a cup of coffee where they sell real cheap coffee.



James

 

[Greenleaf]

I tested a solenoid IN and the same one OUT of the pump and I have the same reading;7. 4 Ohms. I tested another, out of a pump, and it was 7. 8 Ohms



I had an injection pump go bad. Would not start. I had fuel spray at the nozzel but apparently, it would not make enough pressure to fire off an injector. I never tried to start the engine with ether, nor did I connect an injector to the pump to witness a fuel charge. I make enough mess inside the (school) bus as it is.

 

[DonTX]

I really appreciate the brainstorming help guys - All of it.

James: I have fuel flow by cracking the injector connector, but have not ever pulled an injector to see if I am getting spray thru the nozzles, guess maybe that ought to be next, since it is so very simple to do.

Another close friend, professional full time big engine diesel guy responded this morning to my woes with: "timing". It has never been changed or fooled with since brand new, so I tend to ignore that. Not being sure of my pump, we are not even sure what controls the timing on this one. It will light up SO quick with a little whiff of starting fluid.

Got to put the ohm meter on that coil too yet, thanks greenleaf.

It would not be so discouraging, but this thing seems to keep getting worse the more I repair on it!!

 

[Greenleaf]

When life gives us lemons, make lemonaid. Blown head gasket; time to upgrade and learn some stuff. Do the same here. You'll figure it out and be better off from the process. Stuff happens for a reason Don. Better to do this at home on spare time than when your kick'n back on a trip to Yell'r Stone for some R&R. Knowhaddamean?

 

[rlyons]

A diesel engine must build enought cylinder pressure to generate enough heat to ignite diesel fuel. If you are indeed only getting 5 volts to the starter when cranking the engine will not turn over fast enough to start. I once had a 6 volt ford truck that you could crank on the starter all day and it would not start, push it 2 feet or shoot it with either and it would start. I installed an 8 volt battery and it started with a touch of the key. If you could get a large battery charger hooked to the positive battery cable at the starter and the ground hooked straight to the block it might start right up. You did say you only had 5 volts to the starter when cranking didn't you? A diesel unlike a gas motor will not start if it doesn't crank fast enough. Now that you have eliminated the shut down solenoid I would work on getting proper voltage to the starter. If the engine runs after starting with either I really don't think it is the pump.

 

[DonTX]

No no rlyons, 5 volts to the SOLENOID when cranking, stop/start solenoid, not the starter solenoid. I have an electronic tach due to arrive any day now, will eliminate slow cranking. I too have experienced the exact same thing you described before, I know what you are speaking about. I do suspect some connections to the battery, but feel sure the cranking speed is up to par. The tach will tell. The dash tach shows sufficient cranking speed, but don't know just how much you can trust it, I think it drives off the alternator.

I just went by and checked ohms, bounces between 7. 9 and 8. 0, but that is on a very old meter, my new one was dead, somebody left the darned thing on, no auto shutoff. Will recheck it tomorrow, I got at least 6 of the things. .

Greenleaf you are of course very correct, the fact that it made it home at least and is in a secure storage garage with no need to go anyplace in it right away is quite a blessing.

I suppose next is to pull an injector and check it for spray, then worry about timing before quitting on it is in order.

That Lemonade sure tastes good on these hot afternoons! :-laf

 

[Sled Dog]

That is what I have been trying to say, it appears to be in good working order. I have to pull a lot of crap off to get to the solenoid - and the pump. I had forgotten about the Ohm test, gotta do that for sure. Since I am not as good as I once was, but am as good once as I ever was, I am wondering if I really want to pull the pump myself or not. Heck, I am 68, sold all my groovy tools, don't have a real shop to work in (storage garage deal) heart attack, coronary artery disease, diabetic etc, etc. Maybe time to swallow my pride and let someone who does that routinely mess with it.

Someone somewhere had indicated pulling the plug in the center of the distribution lines, but I don't seem to see from the drawings where that would help much. Since this has always ran thru three filters, dunno how stuff may have gotten there anyway. Remeber the character in Lil Abner cartoons, with the cloud of gloom always hanging over his head? :{ :{

OMG this is the Best Thread.

Don, you'll never find someone that knows half as much about this as you do Oo.

When your done, you'll be qualified to do everything, with nothing

 

[DonTX]

Well, TomThomas post made it all worthwhile really, and thanks for the compliments.

Sled Dog, I have done so much with so little for so long, now I can do anmost anything with nothing!

Besides being an ACE certified auto mechanic, I also hold an FAA repairman license, airframe and powerplant, or as commonly referred to, A&P license(as well as pilot certificate). You don't fix aircraft by just bolting on a few new parts til the problem seems to go away, you gotta understand it, first rule.

Hang in there guys, this one WILL get fixed, lets all hope it is the right thing first instead of the horror stories you hear of incompetants that keep bolting on the highest markup parts until the problem goes away. . It is quite interesting to me that finding the busted lift pump, then the undervoltage solenoid power, this things has more problems yet! I am not real sure that when I am not watching, they are multiplying! Oo.

 

[Demons_Ram]

Starting speed vs injector pop-off, grounds, and shorts

Don,

I'm back again and I see the trials and tribulations is still going on. Look at the bright side of this. . you're sure making the rest of us scratch our heads and think about it, and your post will be around in the archives for future diesel owners to learn from. Oo.



Your voltage drop problem could be a result of of bad grounds. These are a common problem and usually give me heck when working with the fleet.

And YES, I know you went with direct voltage and it still didn't start but, someone interjected that if your cranking speed isn't fast enough to pop-off the injectors properly/or compression ignite the diesel it may not start.



Multimeter and Test light.

Grounds--

--Utilize your multimeter and check on ohms for resistance between the engine to frame ground, look for loose connections also. Twist on the bolted connections to check for looseness. Look for condition.

--The battery to frame ground gets the same treatment.

--The engine to frame ground also.

The "energized" starting power circuit connects from the batteries to the starter solenoid (always hot) and goes thru the engine block to the ground wire/strap down the frame to the ground wire that hooks to the negative battery terminal completing the circuit. The connection goes from open to closed when you "turn the key" causing the electromagnetic field to pull the plunger/copper disc and allow the current to jump across to the ground path.



Also check your battery cables grounds for green corrosion running up inside the insulation if they aren't the exposed braided ones. This stuff causes major resistance inside the ground wire. (had me pulling my hair out one time as everything else was perfect)



After your major grounds



Shorts--

If your batteries are draining down on you without a load, you can check for a draw by disconnecting the negative battery cable an placing a test light between it and the negative battery post. Then (one at a time) pulling fuses, relays/breakers, and last, connections to determine where the draw is by when the light goes out. Start from the closest and work out.





RYLONS had some good comments and I agree with them (see quote). This is cheap,easy, and mandatory stuff to check before you throw money at new parts.

You may have something with the grounds. You also need to see how much voltage is at the battery side of the ignition switch when you are cranking the engine, if it is in fact only the 5 volts showing on the gauge the engine is never going to start until you get the voltage back up to at least around 9 or 10 volts. On a coach that old you are more than likely going to find a corroded connection somewhere. I don't think starter amp draw is an issue if it turns over fast and starts on either. You should have a main 12 volt lead coming from your batteries to the front of the coach. It will be run through a fuse or circuit breaker somewhere near the batteries, that is the first suspected corroded connection. The engine will be grounded either straight to the batteries or to the frame. Check this ground very close, look at the connectors where they are crimped to the cables, they will corrode in the connectors over time. By the coach starting and running well until you ran 200 miles makes me suspect corrosion somewhere in the wiring. This is going to be a time consuming process but there is no way but to check for voltage everywhere along the wiring until you find the voltage drop.

Regardless of the injector pump issue you still have electrical problems that need to be resolved.



Don't over do it on this thing. My dad had bypass surgery about tens years ago and we have to hold him back sometimes :-laf for his own good. At least it's cool in Texas right now.



Best Wishes,

Tom