New Member, Needs Help!

[MMiller]

Tired injector pump? Gosh I hope not at 40,000 miles, I think they are supposed to run longer than that.

I guess I was leaning more towards the fact that its maybe gummed up, and not allowing the pump to go to full fuel for startup. I've had injection pumps off of 3208;s(lubed by fuel) that have set with some water in the fuel, and the pump is all rusty due to the water setting around the componenets. If the injectors are sticking, then its quite possible the pump too. Also springs do get tired when setting compressed for a long time. 40,000 miles on an 88 engine is more detrimental then if it ran every day. I agree that the injectors are easier to pull and check. Just sharing what I have found with poor starting diesels. Kinda looks like you are running out of options anyway.



Michael

 

[DonTX]

Sure, I interpreted your "tired" to mean worn beyond running limits. I agree that an 88 with 40k miles has definitely not be warmed up to temp every day. The last owner was religious with biocide additives, but I don't think he ever used anything else. I think it ran 10k miles from 1992 to late 2005, that is around 750 miles per YEAR!. The fault, whatever that is, is something that has gotten progressively worse in short order. Rusty parts sticking falls right in there. With the librication qualities of rust being what they are, the pump might well be "tired" in the sense of worn out as well.

 

[LMcCary]

Don, I did not mean tired as in worn out. The springs in the VE sometimes collaspe from from sitting esp. when contaminates are present. As some have suggested, gum and/or contaminated fuel can be a real headache. Without testing we are just guessing. Only trying to help. Just for your info. I purchased a low mileage engine one time, decided to have the pump checked out before installing in the vehicle, and the pump tech. was shocked at the plunger and barrel damage that was present. Low mileage does not mean good.

 

[DonTX]

I understand. I am contemplating feeding it dose of injector cleaning solution. I can do this very easy by pouring it in thru the DAVCO unit, with the top open, it will not suck from the tank, only from the clear plastic top. The owner seemed "unusually knowedgeable" of fuel contamination for an old office guy that never owned a diesel before, but then again it was starting and running perfectly when I bought it. . Nothing to lose, and it it tends to loosen things up a bit I will know I am on the right track. For anyone following this thread and enjoys the challenge as much as I do, here is a very long version of events from day one:

The history I think is a clue. This motorhome had been not in daily use for the last 4-5 years, but was hooked up, inside a lean to, and periodically run. Fuel was always treated with biocide (hey, I had bug problems in diesel, not fun at all).

I had only a short time, so went and looked at it, drove it, slept in it ovenight, and bought it. It had its minor problems, but started easily every time (even with shot batteries), we started it at least a half dozen times in that visit. I gave him a check, and headed out to Florida for a few weeks, when I got back, went back to his place, we again started it a half dozen times, even with shot batteries it lit off quickly and did never smoke, knock, balk, hesitate or anything other than first class diesel Cummins. Oh yeah, the fuel tank was full, he always kept it that way to avoid condensation. He and I were well aware of diesel picking up a load of water when sitting, San Antonio is somewhat moist of course, actually Canyon Lake, West of New Braunfels.

The trip home went nicely for about I would say 50 miles. i stopped for a cup of coffee at a circle K, let the turbo cool a minute, and shut her down. No concerns about starting, hey, it ALWAYS started easily. Coffee in the gut, and back on the road, but she would NOT fire, crank and crank. I called my emergency roadside service, I did not have a single tool with me. Waited and waited as usual, thought about it and went back in the circle K and got a can of WD 40 and a can of starting fluid to experiment. It fired right up with a shot of WD 40! Vowing not to shut it down again until I got home, headed out again. Wanted a snack or something maybe 30 miles down the road, and it died while I was turning off into another Circle K. Let it roll into a parking position, called again for service. Waited and guy came out with a VW and jumper cables. He hooked the single generator battery to the bank of 5 starting batteries, I told him of course that that was a useless drill. The damned thing started! On the road again, and somewhere between Corpus and Kingsville Texas, as I was rolling to a stop light, it died again, right in the intersection. A passing tow truck pulled me out of the intersection for a few bucks, I used either starting fluid or WD40, it started up and ran fine, I am now about a hundred miles from home, wasted most of the day. Thinking that PERHAPS the voltage was too low to keep the stop solenoid up, I started the genset and let it run the rest of the way home. It never quit again during that time, the sun had gone down and it was cooler also. At home, it seemed to start ok, maybe a bit lazy but the batteries were shot too. I put in a fresh set of 5 from Sams, almost seemed to have solved the problem. Several more starts, getting worse each time, I decided to get it on the road and go get some fresh fuel. New circle K truck stop would guarantee me fresh fuel so there I went. Full of fuel it seemed to start even worse (had to use starting fluid to get out of the service station), just progressing more and more towards a no start situation. I put it in storage, then found I could not even start it. I found the non operational lift pump, put on the DAVCO, new secondary filters, and new lift pump, bled it and it busted fairly well, far from instantly. Restarted it a half dozen times, thought the problem was maybe solved, but still not happy with the amount of cranking to make it start, probably 4 revolutions or more to start, when hot. As I started worrying more about it not wanting to start, it has gotten to a no start situation. Even took out the new batteries and fully charged them, all five.

When I give it a whiff of starting fluid, it starts well, runs instantly smooth, no smoke. In fact, no smoke ever, pulling, cranking, upon startup, It does seem to be putting out excess stink, eyes burning, coughing, etc after a small run time, but then again, it is in a garage, the exhaust towards the open end.

 

[cojhl2]

Thats a good idea. One thing at time so we know what fixed it. This thread is providing a wealth of knowledge for all of us.



Thank you for keeping us posted Don.



Whoops!! I got in the middle of some postings rather than the end. I am responding to the post Don, where you are gonna go the injector route first.



Now Im going back and read what I missed!!!

 

[DGerth]

Where the heck is floyde,CO?

 

[mysteryman]

hard starting

Paychk is 100% correct ! Inside the tank the fuel pickup tube has a filter on it. . Over time is will clog up with ash and or sludge and stopup the works...



the fuel lines often get cloged and the rubber lines will swell shut on the inside. Make sure you return line to the tank is not blocked... If it is and if the fuel supply line drains back at all while it is parked. At start up air can get trapped in the supply line. This air would be purged out at start up if the return line was open but would take a while to do so if the return line is blocked... .



If you engine has a bosch VE pump. Remove the shut down selinoid and check the plunger for fine metal filings. If it has filings on it it will stick ...

If you find metal filings on the plunger you need to get the pump rebuilt right away before it blows... These filings are caused by 2 things. One of the main pump springs has fractured or the cam and rollers are brindling away...





Good luck

I need some fresh ideas from people who have had the old 5. 9 cummins. I recently bought this motorhome with one in it, the previous owner had gotten a gut full of it too. When it is running, it performs nicely, smooth idle, good acceleration, plenty of power. The motor did on two occasions die when coming to a stop light, and starting is a matter of cranking and cranking, and cranking. Onec in a great while, it will fire up like it should. Not often though.

I am an aircraft mechanic and a certified auto mechanic as well, so I have a little basic knowledge, but at 68 years old, am not up on the newer stuff.

The previous owner had become convinced it was electrical. A Cummins tech told him the batteries went down so low the shut off solenoid was shutting it down, and keeping it from starting. He had replaced the alternator, all 6 batteries, all fuel filters of course, and the converter when I came to own it. In the 200 miles home, it died no less than 5 times! In each case starting aids, waiting, or whatever finally got it going again. It appeared to even possible be heat related, the last 100 miles were uneventful, sun had gone down.

I got all the manuals together, and started off. First thing I did was put new batteries in again, larger amp capacity. In checking, I found the lift pump (diaphram type) was totally inoperative, plunger rod had end off it. I put on a new one, bled the air all the way to injectors, and finally started. Let it run a while, shut it off, and repeatedly started it again and again, maybe 10-12 times. So happy with it now, I went home. Today I tried to start it, same old routine, crank for ever and ever.

This evening reading the book, it says one place to keep your foot off the accelerator when cranking, in another place it says to give it full throttle when cranking at less than 60 degrees because it RICHENS the mixture! I had not tried that one yet. It does not appear to smoke either when cranking or when it starts. If you give it a shot of starting fluid, it lights right up and idles and performs quite well.

I see plenty about the newer ones wrecking the injector pump when the lift pump goes out, will that happen on the old VE44 Bosch as well? Could that be my problem? The fuel shut off has to be working well, pumps plenty out the loosened injector connections when cranking.

Come on, I am tired of this, can someone give me some fresh ideas? I might add that this is in an 88 motorhome with only 40,000 miles on it, so it has sat a bit in its life.

 

[DonTX]

Perhaps I was not explaning things totally, the DAVCO unit allows me to pour fuel into the top of it, and about a gallon of fuel is fed then directly to the lift pump a foot away. This entirely eliminates the fuel line from tank when I choose. I also realized that this is a Dodge truck board primarily, and the DAVCO units are rarely used on them, but are almost standard equipment on the Class 8 trucks. For someone wanting to acquaint themselves with this can go to www.davcotec.com and do so. That fuel line was my first suspect, that is why I put the DAVCO on first, you can even see if it is sucking air or bleeding down. Mine is not doing that. I would personally advise Dodge truck owners to go this route, it eliminates the filters you now have, replaces it with one filter that you can actually see what its status is, even the percentage remaining of the filter life. NEVER have to change a filter far before it is time, only replace one filter, see bubbles if the line if air is getting in, etc.

You can also see the rate of fuel flow when cranking or when the engine is running, as the level lowers in the filter transparent bowl. When cranking, the fuel level in the DAVCO can be seen going down, the fuel can be seen coming out of the injector top fittings, so we know the solenoid is opening well, the lift pump is delivering it to the injector pump, and the pump to the injectors. What of course we cannot see, is if the injectors are in fact putting it into the cylinders, spraying correctly, or even getting enough pressure from the injector pump to pop the injectors. This unknown is the last of this puzzle and what I am working on now. I think I will put in some injector cleaner, any guidance of the best brand? I will then drive it hard for a hundred miles or so, and see if anything changes. Next after that I suppose if it is still not starting, is to pull the injectors and have them tested. .

 

[DonTX]

OK guys, time to vote! All systems have been replaced up to the injector pump. We are getting clean filtered fuel delivered to the injector pump at proper pressure. Obviously I need to attack either the injectors or the injector pump next, who votes for what and why?

 

[JLEONARD]

I vote to remove ALL injectors. Then "tweak" one line (carefully so you can get it back) so you can attach one of the high pressure fuel lines to each injector in turn and observe the spray pattern.

Then see what that shows.



I've done this onother diesels.

Jay

 

[Grizzly]

BTW Don,, its too bad you replaced the batts already. That solnoid doesnt take enough kick that if the bat will turn the engine over there is enough to hold that solnoid. (How the heck doya spell solnoid anyway?)

Solenoid

 

[cojhl2]

We know by the way it acts its not building enough pressure to break the injector bias unless there is sufficient RPM to overcome the "Slipby" of the injector pump. The problem could still be in the pump cause the "Slipby" or what ever you call it, could be too great.



But I vote for the injectors first cause they are less expensive to fix and secondly because they are easier to do.



Then if that does not fix it the pump is the only thing left. But I bet you wont have to do that.



Keep us posted Don,, Your expense is our education.



Thanks Grizzly for the spelling correction.

 

[McLaughlin]

Don,



Seems like the charging system and fuel system to the injection pump have been pretty well beat to death in this thread and if there was a problem there you would have found it. As I mentioned before, I'm not the most knowledgable diesel guy around but from your description where it is dying when you come to a stop and difficult to start it seems like some type of fuel pressure or fuel delivery issue. Of the two things you mentioned, I'd attack the injectors next. My reasoning is they are less complex and cheaper if they need to be replaced. That said, I recently had a problem with my CTD where it was getting hard to start, had poor fuel economy (power seemed OK) and produced a very light gray smoke all the time. I had a check done and found the lift pump was "marginal" at idel and "below standard" at 2400 RPM. I replaced the lift pump and had the injectors "shimmed" to new specification. Following the new pump and injector work, the fuel economy and starting were back to normal. I realize we are talking an "apples to oranges" problem comparison here so don't abuse me to much. One thing that I haven't noticed mentioned is could this be a problem related to the delivery valves? I'm not even sure what problems they can cause if they are "crudded" up.

 

[JLEONARD]

Don, do you have the Bosch VE manual?

If not, shoot me an e-mail as I have it in PDF format. It might help you.

-- email address removed --

 

[1stgen4evr]

I would try an injector on the end of a line so as to see if it pops at cranking speed as Jay suggest.



I offer this screw up of mine as fodder for thought processes here. About a month ago I put nearly 18 gallons of gasoline in my 93 Dodge Cummins dually. Fired up and on my way when about five miles down the road, the engine began to skip. OH POOP, water in the fuel I think. It is a manual transmission truck so at highway speed I check to see if it will idle and no it won't. Let out the clutch and drive on to an exit and a truck stop. Pull in the parking lot and proceed to change the fuel filter. As soon as I pull the filter, I realize that there is LOTS of gas in the fuel. This is the second time in a million miles that I have done this so I know that if I can get the viscosity up on the fuel, I can run the mixture out without a problem. I dump in four gallons of oil and rig a gallon jug under the hood for clean fuel supply (I always carry ten gallons of fuel in two cans) to the system. I run the truck long enough on the clean fuel to mix the gas/fuel/oil and reconnect the supply line to the pump and come on home to Georgia from Texas.



So what can this mean to you. If the injection pump is not pushing the fuel enough to pop the injectors, then try this. Since you have the option of putting fuel into the system at the filters, mix some oil and fuel in a 25/75 ratio and see if that brings the viscosity of the fuel to the point that your injection pump will push it hard enough to pop the injectors. (You will need to open the lines at the injectors and crank over long enough to purge the fuel through so that the heavy mixture is in the pump. ) If yes, then you can pull the pump and have a new/rebuilt head installed. As you can conclude that for whatever reason, the condition of the plunger and barrel has degraded to the point that it won't build pressure at cranking speed.



Some 70 replies and 1400 views. You have gotten a lot of attention with you post!!!



Best of luck. I know it has been challanging, but in the end, your Cummins will serve you well.



James

 

[DonTX]

JLEONARD: Thanks for the offer, I need that document!

JAMES: I too am humbled by the willingness and help offered by this board. I am new to 5. 9's and new to this board, yet I am treated like family! I do so appreciate the "brainstorming" with other 5. 9 owners and sharing their history of problems with me. Did you know that if you put 100LL gasoline in a turboprop (jet) engine by mistake instead of JetA, you can go ahead and fly it? Wondered what gasoline would do in there on a IBT.

I am currently of the mindset of pulling the injectors, I have a friend in Houston that personally knows the owner of a shop that can test them, rebuild or clean or replace as needed. I feel that will get them into a known condition so we can get on to the pump if necessary, and I will know as I head down the road that they are not going to give me problems.

I still feel the problem is one caused by excessive sitting around.

Another strange thing. I have the dual filter setup for the fuel secondaries. When I pulled them just to put on new ones, they were clean and nice, some light rust on the top portion insides, but the final one had a piece of what looked like ceramic or hard plastic laying on top of the filter! It would be quite impossible for it to have come thru the first filter or the "strainer" primary of course, or even the lift pump. It appeared that it might have been a portion of some circular bushing or something. Size about 1/4 inch by 3/16, 1/16 inch thick. Any idea where that might have come from? I think Dodge used the single one, here is a view of both types

 

[Grizzly]

JLEONARD: Thanks for the offer, I need that document!

JAMES: I too am humbled by the willingness and help offered by this board. I am new to 5. 9's and new to this board, yet I am treated like family! I do so appreciate the "brainstorming" with other 5. 9 owners and sharing their history of problems with me.



Don, I admire your persistence in the project you have undertaken. You have come a long way and met a lot of good folks along the way. This is a very good site with lots of good people and tons of knowledge. . At 68 years old I'm sure you know by now that if it wears skirts or if it has tires, your going to have problems.

 

[JLEONARD]

Don, If I had a set of servicable stock injectors that would fit your rig I would gladly let you borrow them for troubleshooting purposes to save you some running around.

Anybody?

 

[DonTX]

Thanks for the good words fellows. I took out the injectors, no big deal, and am sending them off to be pronounced perfect before re installing them. They look dirty, I cannot tell anything from this like one could a spark plug, can you?

 

[MMiller]

I can see your problem from here..... you only have 3 injectors in your 6 cylinder! :-laf



I cannot tell you anything by looking. It will be interesting to see what popoff pressure is(maybe higher then spec), or if they leak off on a slow stroke of the injector tester.



Michael