New Member, Needs Help!

[DonTX]

Thanks for all that Demons. I tend to trivialize the electrics, because for me it is so darned easy to fix and find, that is why the jumper cables for the solenoid test. Quick and positive, eliminates all suspect connections. All battery cables are squeaky clean, and all new batteries remember. The connections all are tight, do not show heat when prolonged cranking, and only lack actually disassembly and final inspection. I can get around to it on that stuff. Of course I have some other problems, 5 volts at the stop solenoid when cranking proves that.

I often use a voltmeter for test across suspect live connections. If you show voltage from one side of a connection to the other on a live circuit, you got resistance!

I know heart problems well, came VERY close to dying from a heart attack two years ago, I live on a large diet of pills to compensate for what is NOT left of my heart. Doc said I had less than 10 minutes left to live when the helicopter landed. Combat disabled vet as well, getting old is no damned fun! Oo.

 

[Demons_Ram]

Don,

Still active duty 22 years myself, been in the "sandbox" a few times with the "unfriendly kids" and definitely, appreciate all the vets that served before me for making a difference,taking a stand, and not just whining about it. Oh heck, don't get me on my soap box... . I saw your post on your qualifying mechanical experience and am sure you're qualified to fix this thing. We're just trying to help eliminate the simple things that frustration may have cause us to overlook... :{

 

[1stgen4evr]

"getting old is no damned fun!"

But after a few days the alternative really stinks. I am 63 and counting.



Isn't there someone near you that can furnish a test injector to do the pop test while cranking so that you don't even have to take out an injector? Remember that these engines use a rather high pop pressure since the compression is lower than earlier diesels. It might even be worth the money to buy a line that you can fit at the pump and just bend it to whatever position you want. Till you answer this crucial question, the other things are shots in the dark.



STILL JUST MY OPINION



Bushwhacker, I make a motion that the substance of this post go in the stickys.



James

 

[DonTX]

I wish there were such options, this seems to be a very "injection challenged" area of the world apparently. I reckon just pulling one is best, they are very easy to pull, the only drawback there is it will increase cranking speed so not a totally valid test. Yeah, an old line and an injector would be neat and easy, just hook it to the pump output direct. Don't they make a gauge you can do that with? If anyone has one laying around, I would be happy to send them a Fed Ex label for shipping it to me for a loan.

This timing thing has me bugged. What on earth could/might be slipping inside to change the timing so much so quick? How much does it have to change to create starting problems?

 

[rlyons]

Don,

I'm an old vet as well as you, just not as old yet. I have a Vehicle Maintenance background as well as F-15 Aircraft and I do know what you mean about troubleshooting first and then replacing the proper parts. I do hope you figure this thing out soon though because you have me sitting around thinking about it and studying the books for an answer. I just think it is strange that it ran well for the first 200 miles? The bosche pump does go to full fuel to start however and then regulates the fuel, if it failed to go to full fuel it could I guess cause your problems, but then why is it not going to full fuel? Maybe trash in the pump? I don't know just thinking out loud.

 

[rlyons]

Don,

Do you have the PDF file of the workings of the VE pump? If not send me your email and I will send it to you. It has a chart of the fuel required during different stages of the engine running and it shows the fuel required for starting is a lot more than even full throttle. The governor controls this.

Roy

 

[phillips5]

The plug takes a 3 sided socket. I have one in my rushamaster slash dieselkiki tool kit. When the plug gets bad you have to crank and crank and crank to start. It is worse when the pump gets warm. I lerned this from the injection repair shop. It will start good with a sniff of start fluid. A diesel must turn 100 rpm's or more to create hot enough air under compression to ignite fuel. Well when the plug goes bad then the pump becumes rpm sensitive also. If fuel leaks by the plug then you have to crank faster to compansate for the drop in pressure. In other words the injection pump piston has to finish its stroke faster than the fuel it is tring to pressureize leaks by the tiny bad spots in the plug. When it gets real bad it won't idle on its own you have to give it some throttle to get it to stay at 750 without dieng. It is a bosch part you can get at a fuel inj shop. Like 20 bucks or so. Oh. the plug is on the hi pressure side of the pump. That should make it easy to understand why a tiny bad spot on the plug where it seats will cause the need for swift cranking. All this is how it was explaned to me from the pump shop so I bought the plug and shure enough they were right. They were going to lone me the socket but I had one. I could mail it to you and then you mail it back. I don't know what causes the plug to go bad maby water in the feul and then the engine sets for a while and rust hapens ?

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

FYI..... guy's I am watching this thread and we'll see how it goes... it will certainly be a good candidate for a sticky OR an addition to one of the other stickies/threads we have regarding help etc.....



Good catch '1stgen.....





pb... .

 

[bgilbert]

Looks like that last resort is give it some more starting fuel as KTA suggested, then if that doesn't do it, time to pull the pump.

 

[1stgen4evr]

If there is a pressure gage to test the high side of the pump, I never saw it.

The tests on the pump are done on a test stand and they run in the neighborhood of 50 grand.



BEFORE YOU PULL THE PUMP,



PM WITH YOUR PHONE NUMBER AND I WILL CALL YOU IN THE EVENING WHEN I HAVE FREE AIR TIME. I can send you a line and injector.



It will be Tuesday evening before I am back at home.



Forget I mentioned the timing thing. Till you do the start pop test, fritzing with the timing is not appropriate.



Everything here leads me to something failing with pushing the fuel but till you check - -- --



I would also thank you and those who have contributed for the considerable information that this post has drawn from the membership.



James

 

[DonTX]

Making Me Cry

You guys are just too much, what a welcome batch of help messages to wake up to.

lstgen4evr: You have a PM with phone number and address, and my heartfelt thank. Is this guy ever a good samaritan or what guys?



BGilbert: Realizing that more fuel may cover up the problem and make it start, for the time being I am not wanting to introduce another change in the equation. Even if this "fixed" the problem, I would not be confident that it would not do the same thing again soon.



rlyons: Yep Jleonard sent me the VE PDF file, good stuff there. I have it run off, bound into a book even. Something that gets me also is that it has gotten worse since I got it home! It has gone from "hard to start" to "will NOT start" since this thread started! There would have to be some very corrosive and abrasive stuff in that pump to do all that in a mater of minutes, therefore I am more inclined to think in terms of gum or goo or such. Also my motor oil, mystery oil, PS fuel additive mix not only did not help, the viscosity improver motor oil did not help a bit, maybe even made it worse!



phillips5: I liked your new information best of all. By the book diagrams, that looks like is only there to clog up the hole left when machining that piece of the pump. Obviously it does "something" else as well, like maybe sealing the end of the shaft off? Why is it built that particular way with two pieces? Is there some specs for setting it up? Your description sure fits my problem dead on. Some little piece of grit got in there or it rusted sitting so long, and now it is really tearing up the plug and flaking off rust etc? This appears to be some real meat for the fire, and definitely something to inspect prior to pulling the pump. My idle is definitely not correct when I do get it running. Has anyone else experienced issues with this "plug"?



Most diesels I think start with governor in full fuel position, at least all I have owned did. When starting, they tend with no foot on the accelerator to rev slightly upon starting from that fuel position, then settle to an idle. I have never noticed this one to do that, it just starts at idle it appears, wonder if that part of the pump is sticky or something wrong with it.



Demons: I got to quit as an Army officer at 20 years in 1976, since there were no wars going on then. Been playing and having fun ever since, not done yet.



I hope I got it all answered!

 

[PSchwering]

Just an outside thought - If pulling an injector is not to much a pain, I would pull your own injector for use for the test. If you use a different injector, we will, at some point, question if it has the same pop pressure as the ones in your engine. P.

 

[MMiller]

I've got a set of stock injectors from my 1993 dodge CTD. *I* think they will hook to your lines, anybody else comment here? You can borrow a couple for however long you need, they have been setting in the garage for a few years now. Let me know if you want a couple sent to ya. *EDIT* I just saw that James offered up his. Let me know. **



I can see the only reason for adding a little more fuel is if the idle setting is a little low. My brothers truck will crank longer then it should with no input from the driver. If he just takes the slack out of the linkage and just pull the lever off the stop, the engine will pop right off. Yes, every diesel I have ever worked on runs to full fuel for startup.



Michael

 

[DonTX]

Good Points

PSchwering: Good point there. I am waiting for a reply from the injector repair place as to where they were set. It does seem to start worse after the rebuild. Hmmm

MMiller: I have tried all positions of my foot when cranking. The manual that came with the motorhome says to ALWAYS leave your foot off the accelerator when starting. They say it as though it was important. Some of my Cummins books say to leave your foot off too, except one says that when under like 60 degrees, you must floor it to enrichen the mixture when cranking. Flooring it don't seem to make any difference on mine though, and nobody has ever understood how it richens the mixture by holding it to the floor. I spoke with lstgen4evr on the phone a few minutes ago, he is going to send me all the things I need. I have a different size injector than the 93 I am told, this is some old style that is larger I think, heads used to crack so they made the holes smaller on later ones, that is heresay.

I think I need a good choke installed. :-laf :-laf

 

[DonTX]

Injector Setting

Somewhere waaaaaay back, someone wanted to know the injector setting when they were overhauled. I just called the shop, they said 245 Bars, like the injector says is correct.

However in discussing my problem in much more depth with him, he maintains that the start/stop solenoid is STILL probably the culprit based on the speed of going to heck and symptoms. In his experience (a professional diesel injection shop), they will check ok by ohms, will click and act right, but still not allow a start. Apparently the extra kick of the ether spinning it faster with more pressure will open it the rest of the way and allow fuel. The total lack of smoke when cranking and cranking tends to enforce his opinion, coupled with the no start when warm. I did fail to tell him though, that when cracking lines at the injectors, cranking will pump lots of fuel when bleeding.

BGilbert, you have the correct diagnosis yet!

 

[Greenleaf]

And me!!. . Don't for get me. I vote solenoid still. That is my final answer. Although timing makes sense. However, how is it going to jump a gear unless the pump shaft/gear sheared the key?

 

[rlyons]

So I guess it is back to 100 posts or so ago and pull the solenoid out and remove the plunger.

 

[DonTX]

Maybe So

Don't give up too fast Greenleaf, just this morning I had a conversation in which the nut coming loose, key either partally sheared or shearing was discussed. The symptoms certainly mimic that happening! If I can figure out how to get the darned cover off in front of that nut that holds the gear on. I suppose on most it is just a cover, on mine it is an oil filler. Guess you just pop it out, maybe an O ring or something in there??

 

[PSchwering]

Unscrew it! It won't pop out. It has huge coarse plastic threads. Just grab it, & turn counterclockwise. It'll spin right out. Here's to hoping to does not hit the pully. P.

 

[1stgen4evr]

OK. A bit of an update. Didn't make the trip to Florida but will tomorrow. Had time to talk with "our" cretified Bosch rebuilder. The three sided plug in the center of the lines on the pump can DEFINITELY be involved with poor/no starting. There are two flat seal surfaces that must be perfect. Crapy fuel, water, dirt or anything that would compromise the surface of those two areas will allow high pressure leakage smack at the point of the most pressure in the system. The plug requires SPECIFIC torque when installing and the parts must be NASA clean room perfect. The pipe plug in the center of the same plug is there to access the timing of the pump. Bosch recomendation on the three sided plug is that once removed, toss it, even if it was brand new and you had to remove it.



Which translates, don't pull this booger down in the field.



Does anyone closer have a known good injector that Don could use. It will be Thursday or Friday before I can test an injector and get it on UPS for him. Also Jerry confirmed that the next step is to know if the pump will pop the injector at cranking speed. The fact that the system will bleed with the nuts loose does mean that the solonoid is working.



The timing is not likely the problem (I know that I brought it up).



Don, look to see if there is space to lift a line and hook up an injector. That way shipping would not require a very bif box. The injector will go in a very small box. The difference in the tip from the early engines and the later is not an issue since you won't be installing the injector in the head.



Best I can do for now.



James