New member to the overloaded club, 53140 lbs!!!

[NVR FNSH]

Re: Get a life!

Originally posted by Jeremiah

Get a life, pal, these are work trucks, not vehicles you are likely to encounter on your way to the local grocery store or flower shop. They probabaly run 4-5 miles down the highway before they get to the grain elevator and what's the chances you'll run into them out there? And if that bothers you, get a VW convertible to make your trips to the DQ.

I was taught to respect my elders so I'm only going to say 'Kiss off' and not what I'm really thinking.



I just love to hear people justify there actions with "I can pull it so it must be good" What's the Cummins making up for in your life? Don't bother answering - it will only get censored.



These are 'work trucks'? Sure they are - rated by the manufacturer for ~20K GCWR not 50K. I see you're a retired LEO - would you trust your vest to stop a . 300 Win Mag when the manufacturer only rates it for handgun loads? I didn't think so. Use the correct tool for the job. And, I had to get the grain to the elevator ain't going to fly with a judge or jury if something should happen.



Only run 4-5 miles down the highway? Well, gee how many traffic fatalities have you seen in your career that were caused by some other yahoo that cut off another driver? I'm sure the overloaded farmer is being cautious but he can't control what the other dumb drivers are doing.



BTW, I'd love to have a VW convertible to run to DQ - only problem is I can't afford a VW TDI and there aren't any DQs here. Otherwise, I'll continue to use my truck for towing my 5th wheel, hauling our dirtbikes, picking up supplies for home construction projects etc.



Kiss Off,

Brian



PS - I know what RPN means Unfortunately, I can no longer use a non-RPN calculator.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Re: Former ASMEL + Instrument and glider

Originally posted by Jeremiah

You're mixing apples and oranges in comparing trucks to planes.

Explain please with sound engineering design principles as to why they are apples and oranges. Factor of Safety, Fatigue limits, redundant systems, center of percussion, instant center, roll center, alternating stress, you name it - let's hear the terms. There's enough design knowledge in the TDR to put all the engineers at Boeing, DC, Ford and GM out to pasture according to some of these posts.



I can't wait to hear the peanut gallery's response.



Brian

 

[DJW]

I throughly enjoy reading the foregoing, certainly food for thought, wonder what a lawyer could do with an overloaded combination, or singular vehicle in the event of an accident, whether on puplic highway, private road, dirt road or just trail? As usual looking for Deep Pockets, perhaps the Farm or Ranch could cover it, at least one could discount Tire, Wheel, Bearing, Axle and a host of other suppliers and manufactures. One could say, "Elementary my dear Watson. " In the Forest of Dean in the County of Gloucestershire England there is a saying, so simple it's understood by all , " You can't educate Pork. " frankly so apt in present dialogue. I left school at 14 years of age, however I was educated in Wales under the Welsh Board of Education, and at 13years of age did use Lab. scales where weights were placed on scales using a tweezers also scales were sited in a glass case. We had flasks of Mercury, very heavy, we used to Silver coat copper coins with it, also pour some on floor, strike it and instant Ball Bearings, use your hand as a scraper to bring it all back in one pool, what fun we had there. Brian perhaps the first lesson taught at school after, Memory, ( If you can't remember what is the use of continuning?) Should be, "One Ounce of Brain is Greater than One Ton of Muscle" As a trained Infantryman, British Army 1944, Royal Welch Fusiliers, soon found that Brains far more powerful than Fire Power. I doubt that the Golden Bridge was built using trial and error. How about Pit Bottom sited 880 yards down from the ground surface, driven from a Heading 4 miles away 580 yards below surface, connecting to excavation to accommodate three levels of Cage loading, all before new Shaft was excavated, also remembering this was a Coal Gas Mine, care for some Corn? All these Sinkings were done in the 80s, not too bad? Correction 1880s. Admire your Diploma NVR FNSH. I left school before my 14 birthay, at that time in Britain it was legal, at 14 worked on construction soon found out the higher in the air one worked the less crowded it was, not only that, one got Paid for it. What a Revelation, brought up in the Drepression in a Coal Mining village, turns out, regardless of History, old Adolph brought the Free World out of the Drepression , sadly it took so many Innocent Lives, on Both Sides, (History Repeating It's Self) Bash On, Scrum Down

 

[ndurbin]

Having the right tool for the job is true. But alot of farmers either can't afford a semi and trailer or they just do it that way because their dad did it that way. Theres alot of the later around where I am from. It's getting harder and harder for the little guy to stay in farming, so alot of them make do with what they've got.

 

[mcoleman]

Growing up in a farming family and being initially married into one ( 1st wife ) you learn that farmers get the job done with what they have at hand. The farmers that went out and bought semi's and other heavy equipment were usually the farms we watched sell at auctions as they were filing for bankruptucy. I have pulled loads of those grain buggies to the river with no issues. As well as huge loads of irrigation pipe and hay. It takes horse sense to work on a farm and very few engineers have this. They are to busy figuring out the hard way to do an easy job. You won't see very many Engineers that would make it as a farmer. Farming is not a perfect world. I've put over 100,000 miles on more than 1 half ton truck pulling 45' donahugh lowboys to the barn with hay stacked well above the top of the cab and never broke a single truck doing it. We maintain speeds below 30 mph and are nevered bothered by the local authorities as they understand farming. Farmers are the true masters of making do the best they can with what they have at hand. And they have survived for years this living way. I'd bet the first farmers overloaded their oxen and mules in order to complete a job also.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by mcoleman

It takes horse sense to work on a farm and very few engineers have this. They are to busy figuring out the hard way to do an easy job.

Keep telling yourself that. It's a nice delusional world you live in. Are there engineers w/o 'horse sense'? Absolutely. Just like there are farmers without any engineering sense.

Originally posted by mcoleman

You won't see very many Engineers that would make it as a farmer.

And why is that? Is it because most engineers aren't willing to cut corners and risk the safety of themselves or others 'to get the job done'? Or is it because they understand the true costs of doing business and decided they can't make enough profit to justify the risks?

Originally posted by mcoleman

Farming is not a perfect world.

Neither is engineering. Hence the reason for safety factors and overdesigning.

Originally posted by mcoleman

I've put over 100,000 miles on more than 1 half ton truck pulling 45' donahugh lowboys to the barn with hay stacked well above the top of the cab and never broke a single truck doing it.

Never broken anything on that truck? Sure you haven't. A buddy of mine grows grapes and rice over by Sacramento and they've got at least a dozen GM pickups in there boneyard... .

Originally posted by mcoleman

We maintain speeds below 30 mph and are nevered bothered by the local authorities as they understand farming.

Keep rationalizing it to yourself. Based on your logic the rice rocket Honda drivers - you know the ones that only weigh 2500lbs - should be able to drive 120 mph on the hwy since they are so light.....



Private property/roads no problem load it up and break it if you want. Public roads are a whole different story.

Originally posted by mcoleman

Farmers are the true masters of making do the best they can with what they have at hand. And they have survived for years this living way.

Aren't you one the guys lamenting the disappearance of the small farmer? Did you ever think that operating with the 'making do the best they can with what they have at hand' mentallity might be a contributing factor?

Originally posted by mcoleman

I'd bet the first farmers overloaded their oxen and mules in order to complete a job also.

They probably didn't feed them either because that would have cost money. Oh wait, if you don't feed and then overload you're oxen they're not going to be around to do the job for very long are they?



I've got the highest respect for farmers. I just don't respect some of the decisions they make - just like I don't respect some of the decisions engineers make.



Brian

 

[MidwestMotorman]

Now, before this war gets too complex between the designers and the do'ers, let me explain something. My state understands the farming life. The "farm special" registration on the truck that did the pulling allows towing of 30k GCVW. Outside of Iowa, the neighboring states are actually more lenient, with some actually allowing towing up to 60k GCVW with a "farm" plate. During some harvest rushes, the state legislation will actually suspend the current GCVW limits and often double them. Legally.



Now, I don't condone that everyone haul heavy. There are too many people out there that tow irresponsibly with unsafe equipment. We are not one of them. I often worry about the semi drivers that do 70 mph loaded with grain that just fly by us with no regard to no passing zones. We keep our speed about 30 mph. I have gotten to the scales and seen more than one loaded semi cross the scale at over 126k.



Another thing to consider is the people who live and travel in the farming community. They understand farm implements and farmers operate at slower speeds and large loads. As much as people on freeways understand that the center lanes are for the 90-100+ mph commuters, the rural folk understand the life and operations of farmers and the equipment they operate.



If you can hitch it up, the Cummins will pull it.

 

[Jeremiah]

Re: Re: Get a life!

Originally posted by NVR FNSH

I was taught to respect my elders so I'm only going to say 'Kiss off' and not what I'm really thinking.



I just love to hear people justify there actions with "I can pull it so it must be good" What's the Cummins making up for in your life? Don't bother answering - it will only get censored.



These are 'work trucks'? Sure they are - rated by the manufacturer for ~20K GCWR not 50K. I see you're a retired LEO - would you trust your vest to stop a . 300 Win Mag when the manufacturer only rates it for handgun loads? I didn't think so. Use the correct tool for the job. And, I had to get the grain to the elevator ain't going to fly with a judge or jury if something should happen.



Only run 4-5 miles down the highway? Well, gee how many traffic fatalities have you seen in your career that were caused by some other yahoo that cut off another driver? I'm sure the overloaded farmer is being cautious but he can't control what the other dumb drivers are doing.



BTW, I'd love to have a VW convertible to run to DQ - only problem is I can't afford a VW TDI and there aren't any DQs here. Otherwise, I'll continue to use my truck for towing my 5th wheel, hauling our dirtbikes, picking up supplies for home construction projects etc.



Kiss Off,

Brian



PS - I know what RPN means Unfortunately, I can no longer use a non-RPN calculator.

NVR FNSH, I didn't jump your bones until you told that farmer to "get a f**king truck that will do the job" or whatever it was you said. Sorry it p***ed you off but you had it coming, cuz.



Engineering is fine but folks out there on the plains are doing their damnedest to make a living in the fields and they're not about to break their trucks or hurt anybody either. Didn't you ever see a sign "Slow Moving Farm Trucks" on the highway?



Or maybe "Farm Trucks Turning Onto Highway?"



You're right: I am a retired cop w/26 years in the business. I also know the meaning of discretion. A farmer or rancher bustin' his butt to make a living isn't nearly as dangerous as some NAFTA turkey hauling stuff up from Mexico without any brakes.



If somebody is gonna get a ticket, it ain't gonna be the farmer because he can't afford one any more than he can afford one of those f**king expensive trucks you're talking about.



And I never wore a bulletproof vest either. Cops didn't wear 'em because they weren't afraid of anything, but that's another story.



Like I said, be understanding and if you can't - well, get a life.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by MidwestMotorman

Now, before this war gets too complex between the designers and the do'ers, let me explain something. My state understands the farming life. The "farm special" registration on the truck that did the pulling allows towing of 30k GCVW. Outside of Iowa, the neighboring states are actually more lenient, with some actually allowing towing up to 60k GCVW with a "farm" plate. During some harvest rushes, the state legislation will actually suspend the current GCVW limits and often double them. Legally.

There 'farm special' allows 30K GCVW regardless of the tow vehicle? I could get tagged for 30K with either my '85 Toyota 4wd or my '79 CJ-7? Suspending GCVW by the legislature just proves my point that politicians don't have a clue about science... .

Originally posted by MidwestMotorman

If you can hitch it up, the Cummins will pull it.

That's the root of the problem right there - the engine is more than capable it's the truck surrounding the engine that's the problem.



Glad to see you again, Nathan. Do me a favor and don't show this to your wife again, please Stay safe out there.



Brian

 

[NVR FNSH]

Re: Re: Re: Get a life!

Originally posted by Jeremiah

A farmer or rancher bustin' his butt to make a living isn't nearly as dangerous as some NAFTA turkey hauling stuff up from Mexico without any brakes.

Touche. I've been to Baja and seen those Mexican trucks.....

Originally posted by Jeremiah

If somebody is gonna get a ticket, it ain't gonna be the farmer because he can't afford one any more than he can afford one of those f**king expensive trucks you're talking about.

Pretty poor basis of discretion. Last time I priced a diesel p/u it certainly wasn't cheap.

Originally posted by Jeremiah

And I never wore a bulletproof vest either. Cops didn't wear 'em because they weren't afraid of anything, but that's another story.

Honestly, that just baffles me. Having graduated the Academy in December and trying to get hired in CA (no thanks to the budget) I can't imagine not wearing a vest when in uniform.

Originally posted by Jeremiah

Like I said, be understanding and if you can't - well, get a life.

I'm about as understanding as it gets until something like this comes up. Have I exceeded my 20K GCWR? Of course I have but only by ~1500lbs. There is a huge difference when you're talking 50%-100%.



Brian

 

[Jeremiah]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Get a life!

Originally posted by NVR FNSH

Touche. I've been to Baja and seen those Mexican trucks.....



Honestly, that just baffles me. Having graduated the Academy in December and trying to get hired in CA (no thanks to the budget) I can't imagine not wearing a vest when in uniform.





Brian

Precisely what I'm talking about. Cops today are scared. Why are they scared? Because their supervisors tell them it's a jungle out there. Why do their supervisors tell them that? Because the chief tells them to say that. Who does the chief tell them to say that? Because he either got sued by somebody who got shot by a scared cop who didn't know what else to do, or by a cop who got his butt kicked because he didn't know how to defend himself. Why didn't he know how to defend himself? Because he'd never been in a sandlot fistfight, never been in the military, etc.



He woke up one day and decided he wanted to be a cop. So he goes to work and gets told it's dangerous and he's supposed to wear all this crap so he won't get hurt and the chief won't get sued. So he hits the streets shaking in his boots.



I was trained by cops who had been on Iwo Jima and Pork Chop Hill. They weren't scared of anything so I wasn't either. Nobody wore vests and we weren't afraid to walk up to a car and talk to people. We also went in bars - alone - when we had to.



Today, cops are scared ****less and won't walk out of the briefing room without their vest on, 10 lbs of extra ammunition, a handie-talkie, taser, PR-24, and I don't know what all. Oh, yeah, they gotta have a backup close, somebody to rescue 'em in case somebody looks at 'em crooked.



Remember Columbine and all those cops hunkered down instead of going in that damn school and keeping those kids from getting killed? Scared to death! That's what those cops were. If you want to be a cop and you're afraid of somebody shooting you or kicking your butt, you're going into the wrong profession.



Forgot to say ... I graduated from the FBI National Academy and retired as captain of detectives in a major metropolitan city. Been there, done that. I ain't scared and I don't need no bullet-proof vest. All I need is good judgment and common sense.



And I ain't givin' no ticket to a farmer doing 30 mph in an overloaded truck.

 

[Peter Campbell]

As far as aircraft being the same as motor vehicles as far as design considerations- I think someone is a little off. The laws af physics do not change. The optimum design does change. Does an engineer make the same decisions - same laws of physics afterall on designing a stationary power unit required to produce 1 MW, than an aircraft engine designed to produce the thrust/power equivalent to 1 MW? Is it different??? Is it the same??? It is afterall the same laws of physics. How would you get a low speed stationary diesel to get an aircraft off the ground. How can you get a lightweight aircraft engine to economically produce electricity? Is optimization part of the engineering equation? is economics? ( with major mods jet engines/ gas turbines are power plants )

There is a military cargo hauling aircraft that has a rating similar to your numbers- Peacetime rating and a wartime rating. One is opimized for long service life. The other is optimized for mission completion. A 53 K vehicle operating at 25 MPH has differing requirements than 23 K vehicle operating at 75 MPH, and it has differing requirements than a 200,000 aircraft off the ground at 300 Knots. The farm truck does not belong on the interstate - the operating area ( interstate ) there is the expectation of other drivers of your ability to safely do the speed limit. 200,000 Lb aircraft are not very welcome there - but it is at the edge of thier envelope ( one mile out of 3 on interstates is a straight run for emergency military landings ). This is the optimal operating area for a 23,000 vehicle with brakes on all wheels and aerodynamic for that speed. On a "farm to market road" conspicuosly posted with warnings of slow moving vehicles- Laws that say that farm vehicles have right of way in some states, roads that are now public originally cut out of farmers land and built by those farmers to haul thier product- who still have "right of way " literally. This looks like an operating area that the aircraft would only be wreckage in, the 23,000 Lb truck and trailer would need to slow down to a speed if they encountered animals or slow moving vehicles they would be able to stop- not really an expectation on the interstate. If colliding with one of these due to speeding of the honda CRX trying to cut around it- I would like to see a lawyer get anything out of a jury of 6 farmers or thier families. Of course the correct machine to haul that much weight is the farm tractor. It is made for it. Top speed of around 15 MPH with brakes on one axle. That is legal- OK and the optimized equipment for the task. But it is non conservative to to use a pickup with the same weight and brakes on two axles to do the job? ( assuming the ame speed )

And on a lighter note - if either the 23,000 Lb truck or the haywagons found themselves flying at 300 Knots at any altitiude- they would have a really really bad day

 

[Jeremiah]

Yep. Apples and oranges

Originally posted by Peter Campbell

As far as aircraft being the same as motor vehicles as far as design considerations- I think someone is a little off. The laws af physics do not change. The optimum design does change. Does an engineer make the same decisions - same laws of physics afterall on designing a stationary power unit required to produce 1 MW, than an aircraft engine designed to produce the thrust/power equivalent to 1 MW? Is it different??? Is it the same??? It is afterall the same laws of physics. How would you get a low speed stationary diesel to get an aircraft off the ground. How can you get a lightweight aircraft engine to economically produce electricity? Is optimization part of the engineering equation? is economics? ( with major mods jet engines/ gas turbines are power plants )

There is a military cargo hauling aircraft that has a rating similar to your numbers- Peacetime rating and a wartime rating. One is opimized for long service life. The other is optimized for mission completion. A 53 K vehicle operating at 25 MPH has differing requirements than 23 K vehicle operating at 75 MPH, and it has differing requirements than a 200,000 aircraft off the ground at 300 Knots. The farm truck does not belong on the interstate - the operating area ( interstate ) there is the expectation of other drivers of your ability to safely do the speed limit. 200,000 Lb aircraft are not very welcome there - but it is at the edge of thier envelope ( one mile out of 3 on interstates is a straight run for emergency military landings ). This is the optimal operating area for a 23,000 vehicle with brakes on all wheels and aerodynamic for that speed. On a "farm to market road" conspicuosly posted with warnings of slow moving vehicles- Laws that say that farm vehicles have right of way in some states, roads that are now public originally cut out of farmers land and built by those farmers to haul thier product- who still have "right of way " literally. This looks like an operating area that the aircraft would only be wreckage in, the 23,000 Lb truck and trailer would need to slow down to a speed if they encountered animals or slow moving vehicles they would be able to stop- not really an expectation on the interstate. If colliding with one of these due to speeding of the honda CRX trying to cut around it- I would like to see a lawyer get anything out of a jury of 6 farmers or thier families. Of course the correct machine to haul that much weight is the farm tractor. It is made for it. Top speed of around 15 MPH with brakes on one axle. That is legal- OK and the optimized equipment for the task. But it is non conservative to to use a pickup with the same weight and brakes on two axles to do the job? ( assuming the ame speed )

And on a lighter note - if either the 23,000 Lb truck or the haywagons found themselves flying at 300 Knots at any altitiude- they would have a really really bad day

I think this is what I meant when I said you can't compare apples to oranges. You just said it better. I also didn't know Interstate highways had straight sections every three miles to allow planes to land in an emergency. Learn something every day!

 

[NVR FNSH]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Get a life!

Originally posted by Jeremiah

... If you want to be a cop and you're afraid of somebody shooting you or kicking your butt, you're going into the wrong profession.

I've got to disagree with you on the vest issue. IMO it is a simple precaution whose benefits far outweigh the negatives. I'm not too worried about someone I approach shooting me. It's the crazy SOB that thinks the uniform makes a nice target that worries me. Look at the gangbanger in Pomona that shot/killed the CHP outside the Pomona courthouse and the guy that killed Isaac Espinoze in San Francisco. AFAIC, a vest is on the same level as a motorcycle helmet - if I'm on my bike I wear a helmet.



On the issue of other equipment - PR-24, portable radio, pepper spray etc - I see your point about liability rolling downhill. Although, I would add that todays society doesn't respect LE as much as in the past and LE needs some intermediate tools to fill the gaps between command presence, fists and firearms. Society and the courts have handcuffed (no pun intended) LE and require that the level of force be appropriate not overwhelming.



Regarding soldiers who fought on Iwo Jima etc that were too tough to wear body armor. How many front line soldiers in Afghanistand and Iraq don't wear body armor? I bet it's pretty low.



Brian

 

[SMorneau]

Still nothing bad to say about farmers. Most of them I know appreciate what engineers have done for their safety over the years. Better safer equipment much of it developed by, Gasp!, engineers with degrees!



While I'll be the first to admit I have already forgotton 85% of what I learned in school, I will always remember things do fail and that I don't know everything. So take your shots at us engineers and while your at it remember they( engineers and scientist) are responsible for so much of what we take for granted.

 

[Jeremiah]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Get a life!

Originally posted by NVR FNSH

I've got to disagree with you on the vest issue. IMO it is a simple precaution whose benefits far outweigh the negatives.



Your choice. I wore one once on a SWAT raid. OK for tactical events. I'd hate to spend 8 hours in one.



Society and the courts have handcuffed (no pun intended) LE and require that the level of force be appropriate not overwhelming.



Law enforcement needs to learn that no action is sometimes better than some action when there's no danger of immediate harm. It's no crime to back away, assess the situation, regroup, rethink and then act. Denver cops are killing retarded kids with knives because the kid "threatened" them.



What's wrong with backing off and trying to figure out if there's another way of doing things? A kid with a knife is no threat to a cop with a gun as long as there isn't containment.



But when the bullets are flying (as in Columbine) it's time to move and move fast and you don't wait for cover before doing it.



Regarding soldiers who fought on Iwo Jima etc that were too tough to wear body armor. How many front line soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq don't wear body armor? I bet it's pretty low.



Can't say. Haven't been there. Soldiers in WWII may have worn it if it had been available. If you wear it for protection, that's one thing. If you wear it because you're scared, that's something else.



Body armor can make you feel invincible. I put on boots, chest protectors, shin, elbow, knee and arm guards when I ride my dirt bike and I feel like I am the toughest SOB in the woods!



Brian

To close this, cops should leave the overloaded farmers alone (unless they're driving Fords). Yes, they are in violation but every violation doesn't require a ticket. I saw on the news the other day where a cop arrested a 97-year-old woman who forgot to register her car! The cop said he had NO CHOICE! Bull****! Cops always have a choice. It's a matter of discretion, training and common sense.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Good points on backing off and thinking about a different approach - I agree 100%. We had an instructor at the academy that liked to say "Time stabilizes all situations" - he's a former SEAL & retired/disability officer.



What do you ride? I know the feeling about feeling invincible with my riding gear on - at least until the first crash of the day. I ride a dual sported WR400 & a KX500.





Brian

 

[Jeremiah]

The Ride

Originally posted by NVR FNSH

Good points on backing off and thinking about a different approach - I agree 100%. We had an instructor at the academy that liked to say "Time stabilizes all situations" - he's a former SEAL & retired/disability officer.



What do you ride? I know the feeling about feeling invincible with my riding gear on - at least until the first crash of the day. I ride a dual sported WR400 & a KX500.





Brian

Honda XR600 and a Kawasaki Prairie 650 ATV, which is a V-Twin. The latter will do 67 mph on a dirt straightaway.

 

[BJMarshall]

Mr. NVR FNSH

After reading this post, I have to admit that I didn't appreciate your point of view. After some deep thought, I have realized that everyone here is right. You have to respect the farmers for doing what they have to do to get the job done. I respect your position as well. This is relatively unsafe. I think that it has been proven that these trucks are capable of way more than they are rated for. Safe or not.

The thing I find most interesting here is that we have at least 1 thing in common. CTD



Carry On

 

[SFranzer]

Why are comparing trucks and aircraft like comparing apples and oranges?



I believe its called altitude!