New/Old warranty info!

[Tony D]

NEED TO READ THIS ONE: New/Old warranty info!

Folks,



I know I'm new to this site but I want to share something I learned this morning! I just left my buddies house (Service Manager at local Dodge Dealership) and he showed me a message that came out a couple of months ago. It pertains to the Cummins Warranty. It specifically states that if any modification is performed to the engine or its management system to include air filtration system the warranty is void. This also included the exhaust system. We got into this discussion because I am/WAS looking into Banks, AFE and MBRP systems. Don't shoot the messenger here as I am only trying to share info that I personally read. The big three are getting raked with engine/trans related issues caused by the mods (supposedly). He also tells me of his brother who owns a 2005 Duramax who is broken down in Winchester, VA (presently) with a bad engine. Duramax said they will not cover this because the bad piston is a result of modifications to the engine management and air filtration systems. His brother is stuck with just under $13,000. 00 worth of parts and labor headaches. Lastly, the ECMs are now monitoring the entire system history for changes. He informs me the big footprint is left on changes to the turbo boost history.

 

[fkovalski]

Yep..... That is why I am keeping my truck stock. It has more than enough power for my needs. Plus, add- on components not only may void any coverage, but one may not get the money back at sale or trade in.

 

[jwilliams3]

I'm taking mine back to stock as we speak.

 

[klenger]

I won't even do the fuel tank vent mod or install gauges because of the warranty.

 

[Tee]

I would like to do a muffler delete. Keep the cat and resonator. But this is exactly why I havn't yet.



Yet I know it will not do any damage to the motor!

 

[Tee]

I won't even do the fuel tank vent mod or install gauges because of the warranty.

Ditto. Although it goes against everything I was ever taught about diesel trucks. Guages tell you when things are not working as they should and should be mandatory.

 

[fkovalski]

I won't even do the fuel tank vent mod or install gauges because of the warranty.

I am holding off on the tank vent... . But I would like to add gauges to keep in check of things. Supposedly, the '05 with the in- tank pump are no longer a concern, but it never hurts.



I know we would like definitive answers from DC about add- ons, but I would really like to believe that gauges would not void a warranty!

 

[RobertP]

I'm taking mine back to stock as we speak.

ME TOO!!! :-laf :-laf

 

[lethal injection]

Those of you going back to stock... Its not going to matter theres already a trace in your ECM.

 

[qzilla]

The only way there is going to be any traces left in the ECM is if you change the ECM.



Look at it this way. A plug in module connects between the ECM and a sensor/injector. On one side you have data going to the ECM. On the other side the module is monitoring/controlling the sensor.



Now the module manufacturer can send whatever information they want to the ECM while doing whatever they want on the other side.



How is the ECM going to have any idea what is happening????

It is not possible unless the module manufacturer is a complete moron.



Now ifyou are talking about a downloader that is a totally different ballgame.



I want to repeat this again so everyone understands this about using modules:



THERE IS NO TRACES LEFT IN THE ECM.



Got it, Good.



Quad

 

[starkmr]

I'm another one who has decided against BOMBing my truck. I really don't think that any of this would stand up in court (example; voiding a warranty for a dropped injector because you have straight piped your exhaust) but I believe that Dodge is willing to fight it on a case by case basis. I for one have better things to do with my money than give it to some shark law dog.



As for those of you who have mods and are going back to stock, I have heard of some dealerships voiding warranty because of velcro found in the engine compartment. Whether true or not I don't know for sure, just get rid of the velcro when you pull the module.

 

[69RoadRunner]

I won't even do the fuel tank vent mod or install gauges because of the warranty.

I wouldn't worry about gauges.

 

[swexlin]

I wouldn't worry about gauges

Nor I. I have gauges (my ONLY mods), and explained to my dealer that they are to monitor STOCK engine functions. My dealer liked them, and they have already covered two warranty issues:



1. shredded belt

2. new CP3



The dealer (with whom I have a 10 yr relationship) did ask if I had any "chips".



Also, a cat-back exhaust won't void anything. What happens if you had damaged your exhaust and gone to Midas, as millions of people do.



Now, an air filtration system - yes, ,maybe so. But not exhaust. If they do, find another dealer, or an attorney.

 

[Tony D]

QZILLA,



Your statement is simply not true. The ECM has history reports which provide changes made to the turbo boost psi (amongst other things). Before I posted this info I researched it well and understood the various parameters captured by the ECM. Aircraft engine ECMs (DECUs) does the same thing. ECMs, ECUs, DECUs, etc. not only provide fuel, ignition, detonation guidance and trouble code info they also provide history or anything the programmer wants it to provide based on OEM specs! I deal with this stuff everyday (DOD software procurement).



Tony

 

[qzilla]

ADeGuspie,



You are so far off it is not even funny.



Let me spell this out where you can understand it.



There is a wire that goes from the Map sensor into the ECM that has a boost signal/voltage on it. From this wire the ECM can read boost from the sensor. This is the same as all sensors.



Now if you take a waire of wire cutters and cut this line can the ECM still detect boost? The answer is NO. It will set a CEL because the ECM will see inputs from the IAT and other things and it knows that it should see something. It does not know why it is not getting a booost reading but it knows there is no signal.



Now, say I never hook up to the map sensor but I build something that outputs a constant signal of 10psi of boost to the engine. Does the engine really know that it is making more or less boost? The answer is NO. So I can physically disconnect the MAP sensor from the Engine and throw it in the garbage and still let the truck run without any CEL. All I need to know to do this is what range is acceptable to the ECM to keep it happy. For that matter I could let it fluctuate between 5-15psi. Whatever I want to do.



Now in this instance we all know that the turbo would be providing more boost than what I tell the ECM but guess what the ECM DOES NOT KNOW IT.



Now the ECM will do a lot of things like you mentioned. The problem you are overlooking is that once we modify it we can control what it sees or does not see. If we break the signal there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY the ECM will know what is going on.



I am not even going to start in on stretching the injection pulse. I will tell you this. The ECM on a truck that has an Edge, TST or anything else that is similar, thinks that the duration is STOCK no matter what is going on. It is complicated and really it is proprietary.



The problem is that you are in procurement (purchasing) and not an engineer. We have procurement people here as well but, they do not pretend to understand the engineering side.



So you have a case on downloaders. You are in left field on modules.

 

[lethal injection]

QZILLA,



Your statement is simply not true. The ECM has history reports which provide changes made to the turbo boost psi (amongst other things). Before I posted this info I researched it well and understood the various parameters captured by the ECM. Aircraft engine ECMs (DECUs) does the same thing. ECMs, ECUs, DECUs, etc. not only provide fuel, ignition, detonation guidance and trouble code info they also provide history or anything the programmer wants it to provide based on OEM specs! I deal with this stuff everyday (DOD software procurement).



Tony

CORRECT!!!

 

[RVTRKN]

Qzilla, will you put that in writing and become the warranty station when Dodge voids the warranty when they discover the upgrades? I,m not being a smart *** just wondering if you will stand behind your product.

 

[Tony D]

FUNNY,



I have since replying to this post called The Edge and Banks folks. Guess what, they agreed that the potential exist. You are speaking from a vendor/marketing point of view which is to say... YOU DONT WANT TO LOSE BUSINESS!!!!!! So I understand where you're coming from. I on the other hand am coming from the consumer side of the house where we usually have no leg to stand on when a dealer refuses our warranty repairs and are left with our name in the Dealers Computer with an altered vehicle and thousands of $ for repairs. Bottom line: Not worth the risk. ALSO…put your money where your mouth is and give us in writing something that will guarantee that are warranty is not void and if it is Quadzilla Mfg. picks up the bill. Didn’t think so!!!!!! Not here for a ******* contest just trying to state a fact and make a point!

My point carries a little more weight... PERIOD!!!!

 

[qzilla]

FUNNY,



I have since replying to this post called The Edge and Banks folks. Guess what, they agreed that the potential exist. You are speaking from a vendor/marketing point of view which is to say... YOU DONT WANT TO LOSE BUSINESS!!!!!! So I understand where you're coming from. I on the other hand am coming from the consumer side of the house where we usually have no leg to stand on when a dealer refuses our warranty repairs and are left with our name in the Dealers Computer with an altered vehicle and thousands of $ for repairs. Bottom line: Not worth the risk. ALSO…put your money where your mouth is and give us in writing something that will guarantee that are warranty is not void and if it is Quadzilla Mfg. picks up the bill. Didn’t think so!!!!!! Not here for a ******* contest just trying to state a fact and make a point!

My point carries a little more weight... PERIOD!!!!

Last Reply. This is a ridicuoous arguement and you clearly do not understand how these things operate.



This reply also addresses the issues with a "guarantee" or an extra "warranty" and why it is not feasible to do.



The problem with a warranty is that we have no say so when it comes time to make a repair. Let me give you an example.



You take your truck to the dragstrip. You buy a "race" module and have no other modifications to the truck. You spend all night thrashing the truck and you end up melting a piston or shattering a transmission, rear end or something along those lines.



Next step is that you pull the module off and call roadside assitance.



Well Dodge gets it and sees that half the rubber on your rear tires is no on the rear quarter panel. The rear bumper is covered in black soot.



They deny your warranty.



Now, who is really at fault? Was it our module that caused the issue? Or was it the customers inability to follow directions in the manual, not to mention common sense? Would this fall under an abuse category? In this instance if you had our "guarantee" then you would be wanting me to foot your bill for being stupid. Is that really what you are wanting, a license to act stupid?



Now lets modify that situation to exclude a module. Lets say that you and your buddies are out playing in the mud and you get stuck. You beat on the truck until it breaks. It does not matter what breaks but, something major. Now you truck is 100% stock, always has been and always will be. Do you really think they should cover your mistake? They are likely going to deny warranty simply because you abused the truck.



I work with a lot of dealers and even people higher up in DC at times. If you modify your truck you stand a chance of having warranty woes. If you modify your truck and act stupid your chances get worse.



What we can tell you is that if you follow the instructions, treat your truck like you always have and remove the module before you go in for warranty they will not be able to tell it has been modified.



This excludes breaking plugs, cutting wires, leaving things installed, installing things wrong and abuse.



I think you are really off track from your original post.



You stated:

"The ECM has history reports which provide changes made to the turbo boost psi (amongst other things). Before I posted this info I researched it well and understood the various parameters captured by the ECM. "



That is simply not true in the case of an outboard module. There is no arguing it, there is no debate. What I am telling you is FACT.



Can DC try and deny warranty any time they want? YES. Could you fight and win? YES. Does anyone care to go through that? NO.



99% of all warranty denials haev some sort of issue with the owner of the truck. They either leave stuff plugged in, act like they know way to much when they get there, or simply act out of line with the dealer.



If you have a problem drop your truck off, explain what you feel the issue is and leave them alone, just like the rest of the world. The more you think you know the deeper you dig your hole. If they do not fix it or you are not satisifed with the original result then you can take further steps.



So, I am not sure what you want to argue but, your original post was that the ECM records stuff after it has been modified and that is WRONG.



I am not here to argue over how you should or should not drive your truck or what your buddie's uncles' third step sister removed has to say. If you don't want to modify your truck just don't get ****** off when these other guys blow your doors off or they have to stop for fuel half as often as you do. That is your choice and no one hounds you about it. If you have good info pass it on, keep the BS to yourself.





Quad

 

[JL penner]

Wow... that's some awesome PR



Wish I woulda bought a quad





/sarcasm off