New/Old warranty info!

[DGStrate]

Aside from the voided warranty banter... . I am trying to understand the technical aspects of the inner workings... Help me understand the following:



Why would the "0. 0v reading upon key start" throw a check light if the "simple sensor" has a range of "0-5v"... ? Is not "0" in that range?

Not Defending OR Endorsing either side here, but to answer your question:



the sensor may have a reading range of 0-5v, however, the ECM has code in it to check the output of the sensor, and the ECM NEVER expects to see 0v, even though the sensor can provide that reading... hence, the ECM would set the code/throw the CEL. A reading of 0v would probably make the ECM think that the sensor had gone south.



Helps?

 

[qzilla]

Ok, in this post we will cover the warranty issue.



First, we do not claim or make any suggestions that are any different from any other manufacturer. Even the largest companies in the industry tell you to remove your module before service. If this news is new to you then you do not follow this forum (aftermarket engine and transmission) very often.



Let's start with dealer warranty. The dealer can deny you warranty at ANY time they feel the need. Should you have a true case and you fight it you can have recourse and typically dealers are not that hard to work with.



A dealer can deny you warranty based on claims of maintenance, abuse, neglect or because you changed any part on your truck inlcuding tires, air filter (not just performance filters), exhaust components, oil type etc. Now it is up to you to prove that you are not in violation or that you did indeed change your oil in the required amount of time. I have seen the oil change one several times, it goes like this. You take a truck in for warranty, they deny warranty claiming lack of maintenance. They feel your oil is dirty and that caused the issue and have no records to indicate that you changed your oil at the dealer. Now if you want to claim fixed you must provide sufficient reciepts for filters, and oil and you have to have enough to cover the mileage and or time on your engine.



Is that ridiculous? Yes. Does it happen? Yes. Is it the norm? No it is not. Should you be required to get your oil changed at the dealer? No. However know that if you choose to save that money you stand a chance of having to fight with them. If you keep good books it will all go away and they will fix your truck but, who has time for that?



Now lets talk about warranty with aftermarket items. ALL manufacturers that I am aware of will tell you to remove the module before service at a dealership. ALL manufacturers have a disclaimer stating the product is for high performance use and TO USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.



Now why do we do that? Is it because every truck that puts a chip on blows up? Of course not, read the thousands of threads of happy people on this forum. Could it happen? Sure like anything else you modify something that has a chance of breaking stock and you want to run it harder then you are taking a chance. Of course with thousands of modules between the different manufacturers running you know your chances are good that you will not have problems and people on the forums are considerably more educated than the "Street" buyer.



if you ask a question like I want more power what do I do, you get a lot of simple answers like add gauges first, monitor your fuel system, do not go over xx horsepower or you will need other modifications etc.



Now the problem lies in the fact that there is a lot of people that do not heed any warning and they feel like when they add a power adder it gives them a license to abuse their truck. Agreed? If not then tell me how many people you see at the local drag strip racing their stock truck. Tell me how many people take pictures doing burnouts and donuts in STOCK trucks? It does not happen. That fact alone shows that drivers with aftermarket parts use their trucks in a considerably more aggressive style.



Also I am not ragging those guys, just stay with me.



Now you take a guy that spends $500 for a downloader. He reads the forums and finds out he can download a program that makes 180rwhp for free. He does not heed any warnings, he does not have gauges etc. He is asking for trouble. Now is that the manufacturers fault if he has a problem? Is that the DC's fault? No, and No. But the owner of the truck is not going to settle for that.



That scenario is precisely why some dealerships have tightened up on what they let you get away with.



Now the problem with this is that it affect EVERYONE. Say you want to add guages to your truck, that should not void your warranty. However at some dealerships you get put on the black list immediately.



There are lots of guys that want a mileage increase, or a small power increase without having these issues. What these customers are looking for is a way to avoid hassel. They are not trying to cheat anyone or lie to anyone. But, if they have a u-joint go out they want Dodge to fix it and they do not want to have to fight over it.



That is why we all strive for plug and play parts that are NOT DETECTABLE.



The majority of guys are not wanting to melt their trucks down and expect DC to cover it. It is not a matter of deciet or anything else.



I am not on here fighting to say that I am not going to void your warranty. I will tell you install at your own risk but, if you take it off it is invisible. That is the same as telling you that you will gain 65hp or 2mpg. If I lied we will happily return your money. So we make a claim and stand 100% behind that claim. How am I at fault for that. I can see getting rakes over the coals if I had stated that my product will not void your warranty. I never said anything like that. There is one company that did/does claim that even after many problems with warranty. That is their choice.



I am not sure what the huffy attitude is over here. Nothing I have mentioned is new to anyone in this forum. Nothing has changed in the last several years. Maybe some of you are just learning, I really do not know?



I made a statement that I will stand by 100% and I get raked over the coals because I stood up for what I know is right?? Not to mention from a guy with like 5 posts?? Add to that this is something he read from a friend??



I will give you guys a chance to really squish me. You find me a dealer that is within a reasonable driving distance that I can go to. We will install a module, drive it, remove it and take a reading to post. If it is evident that it has been modified I will eat crow. I don't mean a tech that says yeah I can tell. I mean a prinout of the records showing that we modified it. Now if I am right... ... ...



I am in the DFW area so there should be a lot of choices within a few hours of me. I will even provide a truck if needed. I have an 03, 04. 5 and a 2006 truck that we can take before and after recordings on.



I think I answered most questions. If I did not please let me know and I will be happy to take another stab at it.



I am by no means after the original poster. I do not know him and he does not know me. He does have merrit in some instances as I have stated before. What I know for FACT is how the modules work with the ECM's.





Quad

 

[qzilla]

Not Defending OR Endorsing either side here, but to answer your question:



the sensor may have a reading range of 0-5v, however, the ECM has code in it to check the output of the sensor, and the ECM NEVER expects to see 0v, even though the sensor can provide that reading... hence, the ECM would set the code/throw the CEL. A reading of 0v would probably make the ECM think that the sensor had gone south.



Helps?

This question was answered correctly already but, I want to give a little more insight.



Just because a sensor has a range of 0-5v does not mean anything. You can have a 0-5v sensor that can be "mapped" anyway you want. For example 5V could be Zero psi and . 5v could be 100psi.



Also realize that the MAP sensor can also be reading atmospheric pressure. So in reality if 1. 2V is zero psi of boost the sensor is actually reading 14. 7psia. PSIA is an actual atmospheric pressure and not a true zero like your boost gauge would show. Therefore upon startup the truck expects to at least see atmospheric pressure.

 

[DGStrate]

This question was answered correctly already but, I want to give a little more insight.



Just because a sensor has a range of 0-5v does not mean anything. You can have a 0-5v sensor that can be "mapped" anyway you want. For example 5V could be Zero psi and . 5v could be 100psi.



Also realize that the MAP sensor can also be reading atmospheric pressure. So in reality if 1. 2V is zero psi of boost the sensor is actually reading 14. 7psia. PSIA is an actual atmospheric pressure and not a true zero like your boost gauge would show. Therefore upon startup the truck expects to at least see atmospheric pressure.

Once again - not Endorsing OR Defending either side:



What is stated above is correct... Sensor outputs ARE mapped based on real world inputs and tolerances. The ECM is coded to expect values within certain ranges. How the sensor gets _to_ those ranges depends on what is feeding it inputs (or as said "mapping it")...



Quad - thanks for the clarification - I didn't go quite deep enough on explanation...

 

[jnelson]

Injector 2 and 5 start going out at 70,000 +- miles. Been running a Edge EZ since about 10,000 miles. Take box out. Mechanic runs the mill on the truck for STAR before they will replace injectors. Injectors are replaced with no questions asked. So... whats the problem? Im sure if there was any questionable data on my ECM dont you think STAR would have said something?

Since my warranty usually lasts less than a year, I start adding stuff sooner than most. I'm now at 224,000+ miles and she getting an easy 18-19 on the highway and I am very pleased with performance and quality of this truck.

















PS Quad has given me excellent c. s.

 

[RVTRKN]

Qzilla,by implying that it is not detectable allows your customer to assume it will not effect warranty. If you have it in writing, that it is not detectable than the same is implyied but you can be found liable by a court of law because the very statement of not being detectable shows dishonesty and any lawyer can prove it. I don't care if it can or cannot be detected as per the technical side of this issue all that matters is a new customer comes to you and you sell him the device and his truck blows up regardless of the operator error and D/C does find out that it indeed had something on it and voids the warranty. I think your product should clearly be labeled "by using this device it can and will void warranty upon the manufactures disgression. " You should tell your customer that there is a chance of warranty denied when used when you sell it at that time.

 

[DieselFiend]

I really think qzilla is right. the box is disrupting every signal between the ECM and the engine. The only signal it doesn't disrupt is the fuel pressure or fuel curve. If you've got a box that doesn't mess with the pressure, i think you'd be ok. I actually get to talk to the mechanic that works on my truck, not the service guy. He said that he can easily detect fuel pressure data that is doesn't look normal. But, everything else is fooled by the box. The box is essentially telling the ECM that all is well while it's actually telling the engine what to do. So, when you take the box out, all the parameters look within normal range. I had a couple issues with mine since having the box. Bad injection pump at 15K, rough idle at 20K. All these problems were fixed without question. But, I did strip the thing of the box and all velcro. The only thing I couldn't hide was the plugged hole for the pyro. Dealers have to walk a fine line when doing service work. They have to treat customers in a way so they'll come back and they have to make STAR happy. So, a good dealer will balance the two and make warranty repairs when mods are not obviously detectable.

 

[qzilla]

I am not sure what exactly the problem with some of you is??



With every product we CLEARLY STATE USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. I think this is at least the 3rd time I have written that. We have a complete disclaimer that 100% outlines what we are liable and not liable for.



DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?



This is VERY OFF TOPIC. The question was CAN THEY BE DETECTED??



I think that I have gone over and above in showing how a module can be NON DETECTABLE.



The other party that diagrees has give us a "I read it", and " I talked to comeptitor and they say... . "



I gave cold, hard undisputable facts with examples.



At this point you either believe me or you do not believe me. It is really that simple. What is the point of trying to give a "but if, what if, could have, etc".



RVTRKN,



You specifically need to keep your truck 100% bone stock. Whatever you do make sure that DC does all of the maintenance and you use 100% Mopar product and nothing else.



After all you COULD have your warranty denied at some point for not doing this and you will have to fight it.

 

[RVTRKN]

I am not sure what exactly the problem with some of you is??



With every product we CLEARLY STATE USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. I think this is at least the 3rd time I have written that. We have a complete disclaimer that 100% outlines what we are liable and not liable for.



DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?



This is VERY OFF TOPIC. The question was CAN THEY BE DETECTED??



I think that I have gone over and above in showing how a module can be NON DETECTABLE.



The other party that diagrees has give us a "I read it", and " I talked to comeptitor and they say... . "



I gave cold, hard undisputable facts with examples.



At this point you either believe me or you do not believe me. It is really that simple. What is the point of trying to give a "but if, what if, could have, etc".



RVTRKN,



You specifically need to keep your truck 100% bone stock. Whatever you do make sure that DC does all of the maintenance and you use 100% Mopar product and nothing else.



After all you COULD have your warranty denied at some point for not doing this and you will have to fight it.

The only shop that I let work on my truck is Frahm Dodge which does all maintenance and repairs to include their oils and filters. The truck will never see a chip unless I decide to turn it into a sled puller after warranty is up, and you can bet that it will cost a small fortune to do this. I don't mean to step on your turf and cause you harm, but just thought honesty might sell you more controllers. You try to sell these devices and give the customer a false elusion that you (the customer) don't need to worry about D/C, for they will never know. There can only be one reason you need it to be undetectable, and that is dishonest. FYI, I was the only person to ever service my 94 2500 gasser and my 92 Dakota with the new Magnum 318, to include trany service, brakes, and tune-ups and never had any issues when it came to warranty and I had a good reputation with the old Whittier Dodge dealer because I was always honest. If Frahm Dodge were ever to find me dishonest (when it came to a chip or program) I would have a hard time getting any repairs done on warranty and other things done trying to convince them I was strait up about the problem. I can see why you would worry about getting warranty work done, if you treat the dealer like you tell your customer they can.

 

[ERIC668]

Qzilla I want to personally thank for your explanation of how it works, and I think you have done and great job explaining how these products work. Many of the post have gone completely off the topic and to the point of just complaining. With that said I do have a question for you. Does your product vary the voltage from the map to the ecm?? Or does it provide a constant votlage ??? Every thing you said is correct but if it provides a constant voltage , example 2. 5v. Then I would say it is detectable by the dealer. The dealer could say for example that the ecm shows 2. 5v for the last 15 starts and the map sensor test ok, then conclude the you have had a chip in the truck. . Is this correct or NOT ???

 

[qzilla]

First there is a lot of stuff we do with the MAP signal. We do not just do one thing. Luckily with technology the way it is I can really manipulate what I want the ECM to think. Exactly what, when, how much and why is sort of proprietary to us.



My examples were made to simplify the process to help explain how you can keep the ECM from recording data that could be considered out of spec.



Now I still do not think that a dealer could point a finger at you for a chip if it read a constant voltage. All of the reports I have seen just point to a max value unless the MIL was turned on and then that particular event would be recorded. If a dealer saw a max of 20psi on a 2006 truck it would probbly point to the MAP sensor being bad or the truck had fueling issues that would not properly spool the turbo. The things that a dealer would frown upon would be if the record showed 44 psi of boost! Obviously we keep that from happening.



I think in general the stopping point for the MAP sensor is right about the maximum they would reach if the vehicle was stock. I think this is used industry wide and of course with common sense you can see why.



Hope that helps.



Quad

 

[bighammer]

So the fueling box changes how the engine sees things. It thinks everything is perfectly normal when it's really a bit off the charts. (sort of a Shallow Hal effect :-laf )

 

[MRaynor]

I agree 100%. Your answers were very informative. As far as some wanting to comment on PR, I have sent Quad PM's with plenty of questions and they were always answered and I have to add that I have not even bought anything from him YET. Give the guy a break, he is just stating what he knows, as facts.



Mike

Qzilla I want to personally thank for your explanation of how it works, and I think you have done and great job explaining how these products work. Many of the post have gone completely off the topic and to the point of just complaining. With that said I do have a question for you. Does your product vary the voltage from the map to the ecm?? Or does it provide a constant votlage ??? Every thing you said is correct but if it provides a constant voltage , example 2. 5v. Then I would say it is detectable by the dealer. The dealer could say for example that the ecm shows 2. 5v for the last 15 starts and the map sensor test ok, then conclude the you have had a chip in the truck. . Is this correct or NOT ???

 

[Tony D]

God Bless America, this horse is dead!



I do appreciate the fact that we all had a good exchange of information and I can honestly tell you I learned quite a bit. No matter how many posts the members on TDR have or haven't made there's something we all can learn from each and every member. Our diverse backgrounds and zest for life are the enablers. BTW... just rolled 2000 miles on my 06 3500 Mega and lov'n it so far!



Cum By ya!



Tony D

 

[DGStrate]

God Bless America, this horse is dead!



I do appreciate the fact that we all had a good exchange of information and I can honestly tell you I learned quite a bit. No matter how many posts the members on TDR have or haven't made there's something we all can learn from each and every member. Our diverse backgrounds and zest for life are the enablers. BTW... just rolled 2000 miles on my 06 3500 Mega and lov'n it so far!



Cum By ya!



Tony D

Yeah - what he said!



Pretty cool how something can go from a post to a flame war back to some productive info...



Glad we can all discuss... I would bet a cold brew in front of each of us would help this discussion be a little more civil... How do we do that "virtually?" :-laf



(either that or we would REALLY get some liquid courage/knowledge going )

 

[RailroadJim]

After doing all that reading i could definitely use a cold brew, now i just can't help but wonder how many DC techs and service managers are reading this stuff.

 

[DGStrate]

After doing all that reading i could definitely use a cold brew, now i just can't help but wonder how many DC techs and service managers are reading this stuff.

I know what you mean...



And the variance is wild...

Some dealers are putting the things in for you, and others void the warranty just because they think you MAY have had something there at one time... Crazy!



My dealer put my gauges in for me, and knows that I am using them just to keep track of parameters on the engine while towing. So that is cool. I fully expect STAR to take a closer look due to the gauges if I ever have a major problem, but I have nothing to hide, so they can look all they want...



I never put gauges in my '01 but I did not tow as much as I do now with this truck, plus, the 600s seem to run hot! I know they were designed to, but geez you can get some temps going on them.



I think Quad has a good product, but I am too paranoid about pressure and 3rd Gen injectors to put one on right now (plus I am still quite a ways away from the magic 100k warranty over mark!)...



So for now, I go slow (relative) and that is ok!

 

[qzilla]

So the fueling box changes how the engine sees things. It thinks everything is perfectly normal when it's really a bit off the charts. (sort of a Shallow Hal effect :-laf )

Fueling is a whole different nutshell but, yes the truck has no idea when the pulse is being stretched. Now this is with a module ONLY.



There are at least 3 different way that you can stretch the injection pulse. I only know of one product that is currently on the market that does it exactly like Cummins does it. Not that the rest are bad but, there is more than one way to skin a cat. And before anyone flips out, we have not released our fuel stretch module. We have been diligently working on it in the background and we have done an awful lot of research.



I think the post was informative as well. I think it is important for people to have an idea on how things work. I think the worst thing in the world is for people to have to buy a "magic" black box and 100% trust any marketing material.



I would sit down and have an ice cold tea with anyone involved in this thread. I am an extremely easy going guy and I have never met a stranger. I think the only downfall of a forum is that the only way we can express any emotion is with a stinking smiley! Things often get taken in the wrong context and there is no changing it. I have learned to read EVERYTHING in plain black and white as information only and I never read emotion into it.



If you guys have any more questions I will be happy to answer them provided you are not asking proprietary info.



Also don't ask who the manufacturer is that does the fuel stretch like Cummins. That is not info that I have the liberty to discuss.



Quad