New/Old warranty info!

[BGott]

When I went to the dealer yesterday for my free first oil change I asked about installing a 2 micron fuel filter. They told me that this could be found out in the scan data. How? I can understand a straight pipe or a BHAF, but a fuel filter?

 

[kowaliga]

Does the ECM keep history? Does it keep track of abnormality? Mr. Qzilla do get kinda'

snappy ( read condescending ) too! Explain the product's ability and educate the reader, or customer; don't 'spell it out' unless you're a better speller.

 

[qzilla]

Yes, I did get snappy. I clarified what I was saying in post #10. I re-calrified with simple analogies on post #15.



I find it funny when someone comes on the TDR with less than a handful of posts, then posts something like this and you guys buy into it??



I am also not just talking about our products but ANY plug in products. I refuse to talk any more on the subject but, I did want to clarify why I was snappy. Not to mention it looks like he went to EVERY Dodge forum he could find to spread his unthruths.

 

[Tony D]

Making a point and that’s all.

Everyone can make their own decision.

Also... . you don’t own the damn site. Just because I have much less time on my hands than you and can only post a few times doesn't make you a genius.

As far as untruths go... get your facts and **** together friend. You are wrong!!!!!!! So keep selling your stuff to the uninformed! They'll break... . I'll just sit back and wait and say to myself, Qzilla is a smart and honorable fellow!!!! YA RIGHT!

 

[RVTRKN]

Last Reply. You take your truck to the dragstrip. You buy a "race" module and have no other modifications to the truck. You spend all night thrashing the truck and you end up melting a piston or shattering a transmission, rear end or something along those lines.





Now lets modify that situation to exclude a module. Lets say that you and your buddies are out playing in the mud and you get stuck. You beat on the truck until it breaks. It does not matter what breaks but, something major. Now you truck is 100% stock, always has been and always will be. Do you really think they should cover your mistake? They are likely going to deny warranty simply because you abused the truck.



I work with a lot of dealers and even people higher up in DC at times. If you modify your truck you stand a chance of having warranty woes. If you modify your truck and act stupid your chances get worse.



Quad

Are you saying that Quadzilla will not stand behind their product. Lets start with another example: Truck is stock and a injector fails you go to Dodge and get repair under warranty. The service writer asks "have you been racing your truck?" and I say no. Repair is free anyway.

Example #2 Truck is setup with Quadzilla and an injector fails and you go to Dodge and Dodge states due to some type of chip installed, your warranty is now void. There will be no other questions and I become my own warranty station. Now I call you (a distributer) and ask why the chip was detected when I was stated by you (a distributer) that it could not be detected you say too bad you probably abused the truck and it does not matter that they found it The reason the part failed, no one will really know and the truck was used under normal use and not racing or towing over GCWR or 4X4ing in mud and the dealer will repair but you will not if the dealer finds evidence of a chip claiming I abused my truck regardless of what I say.

 

[qzilla]

Starting on point #2 we will work with you and your dealer. The first thing we will want to know is what was detected and what caused the issue. We will usually ask for it in writing.



The problem with myself or Edge, or Banks or anyone else trying to warranty trucks is that we would all have to live on the benefit of the doubt from every dealer in the country. There is no ONE on this planet that would do that.



The same goes for a Dodge dealer. Say you take your truck into Schied's which is a reputable Dodge repair shop. Your truck is new and is stock but you have an injector fail. You happen to be close to their shop, they diagnose it and call your Dodge dealer and tell them you have a faulty injector. Is DC going to warranty that?



We have the same stance as every other aftermarket manufacturer in the industry. That is that our parts are high performance parts and to use them at your own risk.



Now, I think everyone is falling off the wrong side of this post. The post was not about me providing warranty on trucks. It was about the ECM recording parameters even with an aftermarket module installed. I made some simpy analogies to why this is not true. You can either believe me or the friend mentioned in this thread.

 

[Bertram65]

Making a point and that’s all.

Everyone can make their own decision.

Also... . you don’t own the damn site. Just because I have much less time on my hands than you and can only post a few times doesn't make you a genius.

As far as untruths go... get your facts and **** together friend. You are wrong!!!!!!! So keep selling your stuff to the uninformed! They'll break... . I'll just sit back and wait and say to myself, Qzilla is a smart and honorable fellow!!!! YA RIGHT!

How about providing some solid proof to back up your claims?

 

[Tony D]

Soldier'n on, no problem but..... you guys are friends and I appreciate that.

I also understand that this and other sites are bread and butter to folks like Qzilla.

I was attacked first and being the soldier I am I will not lay down without a massive fight.

All's well but I ask this, please don't say I'm wrong without being 100% sure and you can't be without all the facts! I am passing on info to keep brother Mopar guys out of trouble let them do what they may.

As far as clout goes... I got all I need!!!!!

 

[RVTRKN]

Now, I think everyone is falling off the wrong side of this post. The post was not about me providing warranty on trucks. It was about the ECM recording parameters even with an aftermarket module installed. I made some simpy analogies to why this is not true. You can either believe me or the friend mentioned in this thread.

I believe thats what we are talking about in are posts. If you say it cant be detected then the rest is mute, but if Dodge finds through the programing it was there, you wash your hands of it claiming I abused it by your own statement.

 

[qzilla]

I never said that. I said the first thing we would ask for was something asking why the felt an aftermarket product was installed. Not to us but to the customer. I have seen reports and yes they can run them with a limited amount of history. I cannot ask for that or it definately gives you away. You can provide that to us though.



The problem is that if they say they know you had a chip installed you have to show me how. If I get the report and boost is normal at 30-32 psi and rail pressure and timing all show stock, then I am going to ask what makes them believe that.



If they show a report that says 40psi of boost and all sorts of other things then I will need to know what is going on.



Our problem is plain and simple. We do not get to see the customer or the truck. How do we know you did not have a downloader on it at some point? I mean you could point fingers all over the place. I can do it, you can do it, the dealer can do it. It is a bad circle to get into. I am not saying you personally would do this but, do you realize how much if this stuff is sold? Do you think everyone is honest about everything or do they just want their problem fixed.



I am not saying we would hollar abuse. I am saying how could it be possibly fair to ask us to fix, diagnose or replace parts with a truck sitting 1,000 miles away taking someone elses word for it? I know there are some darn good DC techs out there. I know some personally. I also know that there are a lot of morons that are DC techs as well.



The most simple reason for techs wanting to void warranty is simple. They get more $$$$$ for a customer pay than what the warranty pays them. If you need to replace a turbo and the manual says it take 2 hrs, then the tech gets payed 2 hrs if it takes him 20 minutes or 2 days. If you pay, you pay for what the tech bills you for and any other BS he can come up with while he has your truck. That is a fact and it stinks.



So if you think your dealer is going to void you warranty you do not need to put anything on it. There are not ANY aftermarket companies that would start doing warranties like you describe.



Now if you do some reading you will see that people take their trucks in all the time and remove the modules and they are fine. You will also see that we treat our customers very well and we have a very good support system for all of our products. You will find the same with Edge.



The problem with this whole thread is this:

"Don't shoot the messenger here as I am only trying to share info that I personally read. "



Yet you would think he is a Cummins engineer.



He is correct in this statement:

"He informs me the big footprint is left on changes to the turbo boost history. "



This is 100% true in some cases. If you were to take an 03-04 truck and you put a boost elbow in place you would definately havea report that showed "an overboost condition". They could nail you to the wall with it. I remember one company in particular that sent a boost elbow with all of their module but, their module did not do "boost blocking" in the stock position. So as long as you were in the other levels you were fine but, the first time you nailed it stock you had a lovely overboost code and record in the ECM! That product does not exist today.



All I am saying is that with the current modules available there is nothing stored in the ECM that would tip off a tech. With a downloader you are on your own.

 

[klenger]

... What we can tell you is that if you follow the instructions, treat your truck like you always have and remove the module before you go in for warranty they will not be able to tell it has been modified. Quad ...

Excerpt above quoted w/o change. Let me understand this correctly. You claim your product will not void the warranty, as long as the owner removes it before taking the truck in for service. If the owner leaves the product installed, Dodge can and is likely to void the warranty.



If this is the case, then I could care less about any claims that you make about your product, as to whether it leaves a footprint or not. I refuse to do busines with anyone who would ask me to be deceitful in order to properly use your product. :-{}

 

[Tony D]

Folks,

I know I'm messing with ones bread and butter here and the fact that there is territory involved but I spent over 45 min on the phone with another company (read competitor) and they even said that yes indeed there will be a foot print. The fact you will not admit it is one which will disturb your business trends. I am trying to be professional but since posting this I have been attacked instead of being "educated" (whatever) as another member put it. As far as another member asked me to provide supporting rational... it’s not my burden to prove a thing it’s the vendors issue... PERIOD! I would more than anything like to juice the old boy up but I do not make enough money to cover any issue if it is found to be out of warranty. Furthermore, Cummins is showing up at the dealerships more to verify issues and are specifically looking into the changes made to the vehicles. Again, I don't make enough money to chance it! The fact that a vendor can loosely suggest that you can just simply pull the equipment off and get away with the fact that it was ever installed is not good business and the lack luster PR skills says it all!

 

[klenger]

QZILLA,



Aircraft engine ECMs (DECUs) does the same thing. ECMs, ECUs, DECUs, etc. not only provide fuel, ignition, detonation guidance and trouble code info they also provide history or anything the programmer wants it to provide based on OEM specs! I deal with this stuff everyday (DOD software procurement).



Tony

I am also involved in the aerospace industry and our company is heavily involved in software, mostly navigation and flight displays. While I am no expert in engine control systems, my understanding is that an engine control unit (by any other name) records multiple parameters, which may include EGT, throttle position, torque, altitude, N1, N2, fuel flow, etc. A snapshot of all of these parameters can tell an engineer exactly what is going on with an engine. In an unmodified system, when a change is made to one of the parameters, the other parameters also change dependent on the design of the engine. Technicians and engineers use this data to monitor engine performance and look for irregularities that need attention. A failure in an external sensor (or an external box that attempts to fool the computer) creates a condition where the parameters no longer make sense based on the original engine design.



Bottom line here is that it is very likely that an external box that is attempting to fool the ECM cannot adjust all of the parameters to prevent the "I can't figure out what the heck is going on here " condition from happening.



As mentioned above, I admit that my knowledge of engine control systems is not my strength, so if my analysis of the above is in error, ... well, I guess you could ask for your membership money back from the TDR, or...



BTW, I have 5,629 posts to my credit. Does that make me an expert, inspite of my self-proclaimed lack of knowledge in this field?

 

[Bertram65]

The fact that a vendor can loosely suggest that you can just simply pull the equipment off and get away with the fact that it was ever installed is not good business and the lack luster PR skills says it all!

Then say don't install aftermarket performance equipment and don't worry about it.

You specifically talk about dealers being able to tell you had a performance module on your truck as it leaves "footprints"



You are trashing Quad for saying to take it off when you go in for service.



Why would you care about "footprints" unless that is exactly what you had planned to do?

 

[brods]

ADeGusipe, good initial post. No need to get into it with Quad, he has done more damage to himself than you could.



I too am no expert at anything either. I have done some plc programming and have to review data to see what problems the equipment has had and figure out why. This leads me to agree with klenger in that a sharp tech should be able to see trends in several different parameters that do not match up the way they should for a stock truck. So, Mr. Quad, are you saying that your box has every single parameter measured by the ECM covered?



Man, just think of the warranty dollars at risk here. Just read some of the smarty threads. I have to wonder what the backlash from DCX will be when they have a rash of transmission failures due to the change of the torque management.



In the other thread a few guys post that warranty is a personal matter. BS. Is robbing a bank a personal decision of right and wrong? NO. Is defrauding DCX a personal decision of right and wrong? NO.



Fraud and dishonesty effects everyone, do not pretend otherwise. To encourage fraud and dishonesty in others is wrong too. Rationalize it all you want, it boils down to stealing. For DCX to stay in business they just pass the costs on to us, the consumers. Therefore all you defrauders are stealing directly out of the honest guys' pockets and that makes it our business!



To TDR management, this is a great site. Please do not let it become a tool for thieves.

 

[JL penner]

ADeGusipe, good initial post. No need to get into it with Quad, he has done more damage to himself than you could.



I too am no expert at anything either. I have done some plc programming and have to review data to see what problems the equipment has had and figure out why. This leads me to agree with klenger in that a sharp tech should be able to see trends in several different parameters that do not match up the way they should for a stock truck. So, Mr. Quad, are you saying that your box has every single parameter measured by the ECM covered?



Man, just think of the warranty dollars at risk here. Just read some of the smarty threads. I have to wonder what the backlash from DCX will be when they have a rash of transmission failures due to the change of the torque management.



In the other thread a few guys post that warranty is a personal matter. BS. Is robbing a bank a personal decision of right and wrong? NO. Is defrauding DCX a personal decision of right and wrong? NO.



Fraud and dishonesty effects everyone, do not pretend otherwise. To encourage fraud and dishonesty in others is wrong too. Rationalize it all you want, it boils down to stealing. For DCX to stay in business they just pass the costs on to us, the consumers. Therefore all you defrauders are stealing directly out of the honest guys' pockets and that makes it our business!



To TDR management, this is a great site. Please do not let it become a tool for thieves.

This has to be one of the best posts I have read on these forums. If you choose to put an after market box/program on your truck, do not ever expecto to take back for warranty issues. I put my stuff on my truck about 10k miles before my warranty was done. I currently have a scored cylinder on my truck and a few people have suggested I take it in to see if they will cover at least part of it. No, is my answer. I made that decision to not have a warranty the second I put my box on. Did the box give me what I wanted? Yes it did. Would I go back and not put it on when I did? Not a chance. All these companies that give us the extra power at the push of a button that we desire are awesome, they just need to cut the BS with "it's not going to void your warranty". Be honest up front please.



My hat is off to the original poster of this thread warning fellow TDR'ers that DC has measures to keep us all honest. I know most of us realize that "if you play, you'll pay" but for those that try to slide by with a repair that an aftermarket devise caused, you do realize that the cost of that comes down on your fellow dodge owners. It also gives Dodge a bad name (common failures start popping up).



With my own personal failure, I know it's not Dodge's or Cummins' fault. It's a common failure that comes from not checking your oil level. Or from using a POS aftermarket (not dodge recommended) oil filter.



Once again, my hat is off to any of you guys that help the rest of us realize that DC is watching, so we better realize that if we want more power, it means that we front the repair bill if things break. And it's not cheap if they do break. up to $10k for a new motor hurts the pocket book.

 

[JARichard]

This has to be one of the best posts I have read on these forums. If you choose to put an after market box/program on your truck, do not ever expecto to take back for warranty issues. I put my stuff on my truck about 10k miles before my warranty was done. I currently have a scored cylinder on my truck and a few people have suggested I take it in to see if they will cover at least part of it. No, is my answer. I made that decision to not have a warranty the second I put my box on. Did the box give me what I wanted? Yes it did. Would I go back and not put it on when I did? Not a chance. All these companies that give us the extra power at the push of a button that we desire are awesome, they just need to cut the BS with "it's not going to void your warranty". Be honest up front please.



My hat is off to the original poster of this thread warning fellow TDR'ers that DC has measures to keep us all honest. I know most of us realize that "if you play, you'll pay" but for those that try to slide by with a repair that an aftermarket devise caused, you do realize that the cost of that comes down on your fellow dodge owners. It also gives Dodge a bad name (common failures start popping up).



With my own personal failure, I know it's not Dodge's or Cummins' fault. It's a common failure that comes from not checking your oil level. Or from using a POS aftermarket (not dodge recommended) oil filter.



Once again, my hat is off to any of you guys that help the rest of us realize that DC is watching, so we better realize that if we want more power, it means that we front the repair bill if things break. And it's not cheap if they do break. up to $10k for a new motor hurts the pocket book.

OFF SUBJECT



But what is the name of the POS oil filter!

Thanks!

 

[qzilla]

Ok I am going to start over and do this in a way that there is no way you can mis-understand what I am saying.



First, on a stock truck everything is hooked up to the ECM. We will take the MAP sensor which reads manifold pressure (read Boost pressure). This is a simple sensor that reads from 0-5v. When the truck is running it is around 1. 2v give or take a few tenths from turck to truck and it slightly varies with altitude. Now this is a 0-5v sensor but it does not actually read all the way to 5v as it its saturation point is roughly 4. 5v. Now anytime the key is ok the ECM monitors this and it can and will record this parameter. It can also be programmed to only record over a certain amount or below a certain amount. If you show too low of a number it will record it and it will throw a CEL. Just an example. Typically the ECM will also record anytime the MIL indactor gets turned on. If you have a scan tool you can read this as freeze frame data. It will tell you when the error occured at what rpm, mph, coolant temp etc.



Ok so now we know it records stuff. That part was true and if you read my posts you see that is exactly what I said.



For example purposes I am going to leave any module out of the picture. There were some guys that said they understand this stuff so here is your chance to follow along.



Lets say that I cut the signal wire from the MAP sensor to the ECM. If I started the truck it would and could record a 0. 0v reading upon key start and it would throw a check engine light.



Now lets take that same cut wire and hook the side from the MAP sensor up to an analog input of a microcontroller. Now we can see actual manifold pressure. Agreed?



Lets hook the other side up to a digital to analog converter so that we can compute the value in analog terms to the output line.



Now we have an input and an output. If you do not power the processor you will have the same thing as a cut wire as the lines are not connected.



Now lets right some code for the processor that says output the same thing as your input. Now remember a processor can do things from 1,000 times a second to 100,000 times a second depeding on workload and actual processor speed. So it is plenty fast.



Now we have a completely stock truck but the MAP signal is being passed through a micro controller.



Now lets add more code that says output exactly the same as the input until you get to 3. 0V. Once you get to 3v only output 3v no matter what the input is.



So on one side we could have up to 4. 5v but we are only outputting 3V back to the ECM.



Now, explain to me in any way you want how the ECM could possibly record any more than 3V?



It CANNOT happen.



I am not sure why we even have to go through this. This is pretty common knowledge that goes back to the first mods done on 98. 5 and up trucks. Back then if you wanted new injectors then you added a "boost fooler" or the truck would set a code, record an overboost situation, and de-fuel the truck.



Now that is a very basic way that you can keep the ECM from knowing what is really going on. With technology there is much fancier things happening.



This has always been the upside to a module over a downloader.



Now someone asked do I connect to everything in the ECM? The answer is No, of course not. I am only modifying certain parameters. I only need to cover the areas I am altering.



The ECM cannot and does not measure cylinder pressure or egt. It also does not think that the fueling has changed. I stated that earlier.



I will do another post concerning the warranty issue.





Quad

 

[Spooled-up]

OFF SUBJECT



But what is the name of the POS oil filter!

Thanks!

I know Fram filters have a bad name on this site. I've read stories where pieces of them can come loose and clog an oil passage.



I stick with the Fleetguard filters. I think Fleetguard is owned by Cummins.

 

[fkovalski]

Aside from the voided warranty banter... . I am trying to understand the technical aspects of the inner workings... Help me understand the following:

... This is a simple sensor that reads from 0-5v. ...



Lets say that I cut the signal wire from the MAP sensor to the ECM. If I started the truck it would and could record a 0. 0v reading upon key start and it would throw a check engine light.

Why would the "0. 0v reading upon key start" throw a check light if the "simple sensor" has a range of "0-5v"... ? Is not "0" in that range?