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New Sachs clutch users: HELP!!

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Thanks. A buddy recently put a #10 TST plate in his 215 hp. He wants to do the gov. spring kit and 370 injectors, but the stock clutch is already slipping bad. He's also itching for a rematch with a certain 454 SS Chevy. Been trying to read up on this clutch as well as the South Bend. Stock type operation when driving in a sane manner is important to the truck's owner.

Pete
 
John, they are brass pucks. Briar Hopper and myself just ordered the sachs for our trucks as well. Briar is having his installed the beginning of january and mine will be going in the first week of february. WOOHOOOO - can't wait! Now that I won't have to worry about slipping the clutch there's more bombing to come! BTW - I'll be pulling a sled with it in June so I'll have some great feedback on how it handles abuse.

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-Steve St. Laurent - President of the Great Lakes TDR
'98 QC LB (CMNSPWR), 4x4, ISB, 5sp, 4. 10 LSD, TST Powermax, 275hp RV injectors, SW fuel pressure gauge, BD exhaust brake, Isspro turbo temp monitor, front Draw-Tite receiver, rear Draw-Tite class V receiver, BFG 285/75R16 AT KO's, (all the common stuff clipped)

[This message has been edited by Steve St. Laurent (edited 12-27-2000). ]
 
I may be leaning towards the Sachs, for damper springs only.
I'm nervous about the main shaft taking a beating and after Cliffmans trouble with his unsprung clutch causing transmission noises, that has all but sealed it. Looks like Steve and I will be the guinea pigs for the pulling crowd. I figure what the hey, I may as well try it, I know Mithchell's will hold, where is the fun in that?
Gene
 
Yeah, we are continuing to push the envelope. In about a week I'll be installing a different type disk in an attempt to hold well over 500hp, 1200 ft lb. Wear and smoothness may not be as good, but Sickly needs the fuel. He will need more clutch when really thirsty.
Cha-ching. I gotta PAY for these clutches #ad
 
Joseph, I probably won't exceed the 400hp mark. What clutch should I go with that is streetable, but definately won't slip? It's almost time for the purchase.
 
Sickly uses the brass puck friction material with the Sachs pressure plate around 3600 lb clamp load. The next clutch will be around 3800 lb with a somewhat different arrangement but still brass pucks. You should be OK with around 3600 lb and brass, assuming your torque is around 1000 ft lb.
 
How well do the organic clutch discs hold up? I will have a 2001 3500 on order within the next month with the ETC\5spd. I am leaning towards the adjustable PowerMax 3 box and DD1 injectors. Will the organic facing hold this power or will I need the brass clutch?

Thanks,
Jonathon

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'96 3500 5spd Heavily BOMBed @50psi boost, DynoMax Race Mag muffler, cat fell off, Green/Tan loaded... 16. 70@95... And it is for sale

'67 Barracuda 11. 71@111

NHRA Member for life... LOL
 
Organic disk should hold up if you don't slip it a lot deliberately. However, you will be near its maximum. Also you might consider 275 hp RV injectors for low smoke and good power. Your choice of clutch disk will center around driveability vs. holding power in case you do anything else for power.
 
How do the organic facings compare with the brass facings as far as everyday driveability? Are there any real advantages to the organic other than price? I've read that some of the aftermarket clutches must be launced at 1100-1200 rpm consistently, does this apply to these clutches? Do they exhibit behavior similar to the stock clutch in stop & go type driving (not neccesarily just pedal pressure)?

Thanks,

Pete
 
The best organic facing is smoother than brass. However, many organics can exhibit "shuddering" especially in reverse when trying to slip them to back up a heavy trailer. The brass has a high coefficient of friction, and that is where its high holding power comes from. That also means it tries to hold (aka grab). If the truck is not moving, and you let out the clutch at around 800 rpm, it will shake the truck trying to get it moving and trying to grab because the flywheel is turning 800 rpm and the transmission input zero rpm. The easiest solution is (1) use first gear and just let it out--torque multiplication will take care of the rest; or (2) in 2nd gear, give the engine around 1000-1100 rpm so the clutch can't grab. The friction will start the truck rolling. As soon as that happens you can let out the clutch the whole way and the Cummins governor will take care of you. Either way is pretty smooth once you get the hang of it. The brass pucks have two major advantages: (1) great torque capacity; (2) won't fade or glaze. This type facing is used in almost all semi's and medium trucks. The drivers get used to them and they drive smoothly. A clutch should not be slipped much anyway; that is what wears it out, and puts hot spots on the flywheel and pressure plate.

If you are a one-time Bomber with medium power, say up to 300 or maybe 350 hp (800, possibly up to 900 ft lb), and don't have any idea of doing sled pulls, etc. where you have to slip it a good bit, organic is cheap, relatively smooth and easy to drive. This might correspond to someone who got a torque plate only, or just a box, or big injectors. Sometimes, folks with two of the above. If you want a clutch that will survive with further Bombing (might you be a bombaholic?) and will take whatever you dish out, you need the brass pucks. Let me clarify that torque not hp is what slips a clutch, but it is easier to refer to hp figures for some folks. Many don't realize that our Rams may produce 2. 5 or more ft lb for every 1 hp, depending on what "toys" they have fed their Rams. The Dynojet does not record the peak torque, and that compounds the problem with referencing torque figures. If you tow your heavy trailer and let the cruise control floor the pedal at 1600-1800 rpm pulling up a mountain, you can find that (a) the engine makes more torque than you thought, and (b) the clutch you thought was "enough" won't hold all of it.
I feel that the organic disk with the high pressure custom Sachs pressure plate is the best single plate organic disk clutch for high torque Rams. There is a lot of surface area to provide clamp and spread out heat, and the disk facing is very high quality. However, the picture of Bombing has changed. No longer do many folks feel that an uprate to 230 hp and 605 ft lb is "satisfying. " Even 280-300 hp and torque from 700-800 ft lb is "ho-hum" for many who consider themselves "reasonable" and "conservative" about power. Some "think" they are happy at 300 hp, and get a clutch that is adequate for that power level. Lo and behold, about 6 months or a year later, a set of humongous injectors (or another little box that slips under the dash so easily) beckons irresistibly. Whaaaat!!!! OOOHHHHHHHH NNNNOOOOOO. #ad
I'm sick. The clutch slips. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH. All I did was---, #ad
and now that junky clutch is toast. #ad


Yep, blame the poor clutch. Dodge did try to save $500 or more off the retail price by putting in a cost-accountant's dream clutch. Now you need an engineeer's dream clutch. If the modification is easy, like clipping onto a wire, or slipping in a part that "looks" the same as stock, surely the clutch should be able to take it. Nope. #ad


Hehehe. Such is Bombing. You just added 30-40 hp, but maybe 100-125 ft lb and it's time to put the power back on the table, or else admit you belong to Bombaholics Unanimous and get a "real" clutch and chase the power vs. clutch dilemma with the "real" Bombers. Rest assured the automatic transmissions are even worse off. What you can demo to folks as adequate for 280 hp becomes another story at 380 hp. 480 hp? You got a real dilemma there, hhmmm, better attend May Madness. We will have cutting-edge auto trans companies represented there, tech talks and roundtable discussions. Bombs away!

[This message has been edited by Joseph Donnelly (edited 01-06-2001). ]
 
Joseph, so where is a good source for these clutches and how about the install? I'd like to know a little more about the drivability issue but this sounds like a good way to go. Thanks.
 
Joseph you just sold me on the Sachs clutch, and I think I'll go with the brass facing too. What kind of pedal pressure can I expect from this clutch?
Thanks for your input,
Jonathon
 
The Sachs has a light pedal feel for the clamp load it gives. At 3600 lb, in most Rams, the pedal feels about stock. In a few Rams, it seems the new ones have smaller hydraulics, the pedal will be firm. A diaphragm clutch is much easier to deal with than a coil sprung Borg and Beck with 3 or 4 fingers. Once you depress the diaphragm over center, pressure does not increase. It's kind of like a "cricket" like you had as a kid. On the other hand, the farther you depress a coil spring clutch, the harder it is. Also, the lever ratio seems much better with a diaphragm so pedal pressure is much lighter for a given clamp load than with a Borg&Beck. I am looking into bigger hydraulics, but meanwhile call 800-std-tran and they can sell you the hydraulics from the earlier 2nd gen Rams for a pretty good price. I hear NAPA also has them, but a bit more pricey.
 
Joe your last post sounded like you where desribing me. #ad

Once many years ago 230 HP was enough and then 280 HP was enough, then you hooked me on 370 injectors and a bigger housing and now the Luk Pro Gold isn't enough. #ad

Then we met in person and rode in SICKLY and now it seems that there will never be enough. #ad
WHERE WILL THIS END? #ad
What happens when this Sach's clutch isn't enough? #ad



[This message has been edited by drawson (edited 01-06-2001). ]
 
I've been using Joe's brass unit with the 3600 lb spring for a couple of months now and am very happy with it. His knowledge of all this clutch and transmission stuff blows me away. The only issues I had in the beginning were the "chatter" and pedal pressure. Neither are issues any more since becoming used to the clutch.

In fact, the stickiness, if anything, I would consider a positive attribute. Now that I'm used to things, the chatter is almost nonexistent. For sure there is a more positive engagement than with the stock ETH/DEE clutch and it takes some practice to make it as smooth as stock. I guess some would feel this lack of smoothness to be a negative thing, but I feel exactly opposite, and consider the feeling of confidence of a positive engagement, it gives, to be very satisfying. The performance seems to reflect more closely the nature of the engine in particular, and the truck in general. It seems to more closely fit the noise and vibration of the whole diesel experience which many of us enjoy.

The pedal pressure is higher than I personally would like. but I've also become very used to that and it just isn't an issue any more. In feeling the pedal pressure on Joe's "Sickly", which seems about the same as stock to me, there must be some sort of a linkage change between "Sickly" and My 2001. Someone should check this out because it could be an easy fix for anyone who just can't get used to higher pedal pressures.

Finally, the Sachs isn't the cheapest choice out there, but it surely is heads and shoulders above all the rest in terms of quality and beefiness. I wanted the best, and I paid more for it, but in the final analyses, I really got a pretty good deal because I'm confident it will give many years and miles of trouble free performance. It's the clutch these trucks should have been equipped with in the first place.
 
Joe,
I am wondering if the Sachs unit would fit onto the McLeod flywheel, I really like the roller bearing in the pilot, also the studs as opposed to bolts.
Don

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Ol' WHEEZER
96 2500 4x4 5spd 3. 54 grs, #10 TST plate, AFC spring kit, 16 cm turbo, CUSTOM 4" exhaust, (turbo to tail), K&N RE-0880 filter, TST guages, 370HP injectors, 3800 rpm governor spring kit, Slightly advanced timing(16deg. ) Powershot 2000 propane injection system Mcleod dual disc clutch(street), 305/70r16 Goodyear Wrangler MT tires, Linex Liner and Rockers,
 
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