New to TDR and want a 1st Gen

[MMoyle]

Hi All,



I am new to TDR and I have been without my diesel for over 2. 5 years now. I've owned 2 diesels in my life - A 1998. 5 24V 4x4 Auto and a 2001 24V 4x4 6sp HO. I really miss my 6sp HO. It was by far the best truck I have ever owned! I sold it because of financial reasons at the time. Now that I am back on track financially, I am looking for a new diesel. Part of me would like to buy a new 04 with a 6sp, but I really love the first Gen look. So I am considering buying a 1st gen. I would love a 250 extended cab with 4x4 and a 5sp that is in good shape. I plan on putting alot of miles on the truck so I want to make it as reliable and fuel efficient as possible. How much money do you think I would spend to get a first gen as reliable and fuel efficient as possible? I am the type to do everything up front before driving it, so if it needed suspension, braking, a/c maintanence, engine, trans, etc work, I would do everything at once. I plan on driving across country with it, trailering a race car, and experiencing all type of weather conditions. So once I am done with everything, I don't want to have to do much to the truck other than drive it. Or do you think I should get a new truck? Thanks!

 

[RGT]

I've got the auto trans, pm if interested, i am currently in Washington DC, will be back in new england the end of this month

 

[MFalkinham]

Hi, and welcome to the TDR!



Whether to buy new or not really depends on three major factors IMHO.....



1. Can you easily afford the new truck payments? If so, I'd buy new since the deals are pretty good right now on the 04. 5's.



2. Can you put up with a somewhat rough ride? The 4x4 1st Gens use leaf springs all around. On the interstate the ride isn't too bad, but on rough roads the ride will be punishing.



3. Do you need to carry more than 3 people total? You can replace the front bench seat with buckets from a 2nd Gen and be comfortable, but even with putting a mini-bench in the rear it is best left for very small kids (see my Reader's Rigs gallery).



Finding a 1st Gen in good condition is an exercise in patience. I bought mine two years ago, paid $8k, and had to drive 10 hours to get it. My biggest concern was for it to be rust free, followed by mechanical condition. You may have to compromise somewhat. I really didn't need or want a dually, but the deal was good so I bought it.



There are some days I think of selling mine and getting a new 3rd Gen. But then I think about that little payment booklet and come to my senses.



Good luck with your search!!



- Mike

 

[Headshot zod]

Originally posted by MFalkinham





Finding a 1st Gen in good condition is an exercise in patience. I bought mine two years ago, paid $8k, and had to drive 10 hours to get it... .....

boy is that the truth, I just finished driving back from Kamsack, SK to NJ last night with my 1st Gen... .....

 

[MMoyle]

Thanks for the quick replies! You guys are great! I don't mind the rough ride quality of the first-gen. Like you said I could put in new seats from a 2nd Gen for more comfort, but the ride quality is not a concern. Reliablity is the biggest concern. I really love the first-gen trucks and I guess with the right amount of money I could get it to where I need it to be. I guess I can start pricing out parts to get a good idea. Suspension, braking, trans (would like to convert to a 5600 6sp), etc would be a good start.

 

[MFalkinham]

I really love the first-gen trucks and I guess with the right amount of money I could get it to where I need it to be.

You summed it up nicely with that post. There isn't too much that can't be fixed by throwing money at it. The ideal situation is to find a "lower-mileage" truck owned by a private party who is being forced to sell. I'd define low-mileage as under 150k miles. Texas seems to have a lot of clean 1st Gens, but they usually have higher miles, and a 4x4 might be tougher to find there. Otherwise, northern plains states that don't use road salt usually have some 4x4 ranch trucks for sale on autotrader. Avoid trucks that have spent their entire lives in the Great Lakes states due to the road salt we use here.



Are you planning on bombing this truck, or keeping it stock? Again, if you can find one that has already been upgraded, that will save you some time and expense. Also you mentioned fuel efficiency being important. Then I'd stay away from the 4. 10 gears unless you will be pulling a heavy trailer or doing mountain towing.



- Mike

 

[MMoyle]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you planning on bombing this truck, or keeping it stock?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mileage and reliability is the key to that question. Whatever I need to do to increase the reliability and mileage, I will. What do you recommend? A stock setup, or slight moddded?

 

[MFalkinham]

The main reason for bombing is to increase HP and torque (and make more smoke). I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but only certain mods will help fuel economy, such as a bigger exhaust, a free-flowing air filter, and synthetic fluids. Bombs such as VE-pump tweaking, POD injectors, turbo upgrades, etc might hurt fuel economy by pushing more fuel through the engine (and encouraging you to use it with a heavier right foot).



The VE-pump is somewhat weak, and tweaking it could shorten it's useful life. My stock truck already has plenty of torque for what I need (7k trailer). If I was doing heavier towing, I'd be looking into some bombs, but with the understanding that I might be shortening the life of certain components like the VE.



Just my 2-cents.



- Mike

 

[MMoyle]

Crazy idea... . What would be involved in installing a 24v motor into a first gen?

 

[MFalkinham]

Crazy idea... . What would be involved in installing a 24v motor into a first gen?

A lot of mods, including computer electronics and sensors. Not for the faint of heart.



A less crazy mod might be to use a 12v engine and transmission from a 2nd gen. That way you'd get their better mechanical injector pump and manual transmission, but still have the 12v reliability. There would still be some sensor, drivetrain and wiring mods I'm guessing, but less computer controls than a 24v. Of course, then it would be easier to just get a 2nd gen and enjoy the smoother ride.



- Mike

 

[bgilbert]

Take a look at BCook1's truck for sale in the classifieds. He's asking what its worth I believe and he's done most of the things already you would have to do to a 1st gen truck to make it reliable, basically all the little 1st gen 'problems'. One can pay $3-4K for a beater thats gonna need that much to get it cross country worthy or pay the premium and be done with it, but be careful, one can pay $10k for a low mileage truck that still will need those 1st gen problems corrected, getrag rebuilt, steering box leaks fixed, soft ride leafs all around, new style seat etc.

 

[Greenleaf]

I was thinking the same thing..... look in the TDR Classifieds. Some 'o the first genners there have had, like, tons 'o work done to them.



I'd drive some distance for a nice one for the right price. Luck would have it, that I didn't have to. Found mine local. With all original rust too.



We don't see much road salt in these here parts



Heck, whenever the ODOT guys see a snow flake, out goes a fleet of dumps to distribute millions of tons 'o the stuff:-{}



Buy one from Ohio and invest in body work what you invest in mods.



-S

 

[BCook1]

Knowing what I know now, I would buy a new truck. If you are dead set on a first gen however, buy mine. You will not be disappointed. I would suggest some fuel system upgrades if mileage is one of your goals, but you should really accept the fact that these 20+ mpg claims in a 4x4 are BS. For those of you who disagree, I will take debunk any claim you have.

 

[cguthrie]

Bcook, i'll have to disagree with you. when i first got mine i got 24 mpg with it but that was when it was stock. When i left vegas pulling a trailer up to Oregon i got about 15 with everything weighing in right under 15,000. i'm not trying to prove you wrong just telling you my experience.



Chris

 

[BCook1]

My mistake. I should have clarified what I meant. Consistent 20+ mpg claims under all driving conditions are BS. Sure one can get over 20 downhill with a tail wind driving like you have an egg under the accelerator but to get over 20 all the time is bull. If it isn't, then something is really wrong with my truck. After two separate professional shops set the pump and tested the injectors, I still only get 16 to 17 empty and 10 towing a 7000 pound trailer. I drive the speed limit on the interstate - 75 mph. And I drive it like a normal vehicle around town. I was hoping to get the 20 mpg numbers empty and mid teens towing and it just won't happen. Not if you want to get where you are going in this lifetime. If someone can prove to me that I am wrong I will believe it. I have never come remotely close to the 600 mile tankful that some would have you believe is a normal and everyday occurrence. If anyone knows why, let me know. Until then, prove it.

 

[MMiller]

Before I messed up my truck with mud tires and the visor I would consistanly get 18-20 mpg. I checked almost every tank. Drove by the odometer and not the fuel gauge. That was mostly 2 lane roads around 55-60 mph. Speed kills. With the 33" mud tires and mods listed below, empty interstate trips I can knock down 16-17 mpg.



One trip to Arizona, drove down from southern IA to Mid Arizona netted 24 mpg on the way down. Would fill up and drive until the tank was almost empty, at 70-75 mph. But that was very little accelerating, and driving with cruse on. Had street tires on it.



As far as the looking for the first gens. Be prepared to spend $10,000 for an excelent one (like BCook's) or buy a $3500 and invest money in making it a good one.



Everybody that has a first gen ether has babied it, and its still looks beautiful, or its a WORK TRUCK, and has been WORKED!



Not trying to mislead or run you off couse, just preparing you!



Good luck



Michael

 

[dpuckett]

Re: MPG claim BS

I beg to differ on the MPG claims. I have had 6 first Gens, in almost every major drivetrain combo, and had only one that failed to get 19-20mpg local, non-hwy driving. It was a 93 W350 Xcab flatebd with 4. 10 and a Getrag. It got 18. I dont hotrod off every stoplight line, but I dont drive like a grandpa, either. I do weekly peak boost checks (mid thirties in the current one), along with putting ricers and the V8 crowd in their proper place. I had a nearly stock 91. 5 that got 22 in town and 24. 5 on the hwy at 65-70mph. 2wd, SRW, r-cab, 5spd. My current one, with 280K on the pump (I am having issues with smoke and idle quality, so I figure it is in its twilight miles), still gets 18-20 around locally here, 25% of it gravel at 20-45mph. Hwy MPGs are about the same due to RPMs at 65-70. So, BCook1, I'd say you have the odd one out. If you want, I can PM you some tips that have helped me in the past.



AFC adjustments can have a profound effect on MPGs, esp cone depth and spring tension. Basically, increase the AVAILABLE power/ torque, and then use it sparingly, and you will increase your MPGs. Takes fuel to make power and torque. Use it and MPGs will suffer. I wont say turning in your full power screw WONT affect yor mileage, but it wont kill it, either. Read the sticky on VE operation. Basically, you only stress the pump when you ask for the extra power. Dont ask for it, and you dont stress the pump internals.



Daniel

 

[dpuckett]

Re: Rest of the truck

Apparently, I have looser standards for the rest of the truck outside the drivetrain and suspension than some of the rest of the membership.



I have almost $5K in mine, including purchase. I have bought new EDM injectors ($650) and had the diff reset with new bearings and spider gears ($550), along with some other odds and ends. I have driven it cross country (CO-MO and back twice) with no problems, except an occasional oil leak. The bed is coming apart at the seams, literally (thank you, MODOT), paint is fading, though it has no rust, and has a few dings and dents. IT gets me where I need to go, will outhaul and out tow any V8 around, starts in the winter, and gets good MPGs. I am happy with it overall.



They are used vehicles, and they aint getting any newer. Get one that is well broken in, like mine was :-laf (200K pulling a 35ft (40?) G-N trailer hauling tractors cross country). I'd pass on the cream puff that hasnt ever pulled a trailer or been off road; you cant be sure it is up to the task, and the owner will want a premium for it. I know mine can do it; has for every owner that has owned it. Plus, the money I save over paying $10K can buy a lot of BOMBs and upgrades.



-DP

 

[bgilbert]

Brennan, move out east here, won't get too far too fast at 75mph, and you will get better fuel mileage, 75mph will give you 16-17 what you're gettting now, drive 65 tops for a tank full and see how much fuel you save. I read over in the 3rd gen forum about guys not getting 18-20mpg and saying they cruise at 70-75+, well ain't gonna happen consistently at that speed. Worn high mileage stock injectors will not give 20+mpg's either. New stockers or upgrade injectors and 'slight' pump tweaks to go along with the upgrade sticks will give better fuel mileage than stockers. After I installed my PODS, turned fuel screw in 3x's and all the other fuel mods, my mpg's have remained the same 18. 5 on the 89, thats saying alot for those injectors and fuel mods, just think if I left the fuel alone, how much my mpgs would be... then again, with the new job, I run mostly highway miles, about 25 per day and top out at 65mph, with the occasional hammer down get out of my way im late for work bonzai run. Control mpg's with right foot...

 

["Mad Max"]

Mileage -vs- power

For my experience, I went up to PDR for dynofest 2003 last September with a totally virgin engine (except for the Intake of course ), and got a nice 20 mpg/highway with just the truck, no trailer, etc. Once there, we installed the POD's, HX-35 and 16cm housing, cranked the pump and timing. My power went from 136 rwhp to 253 rwhp (almost doubled the power y'all), and on the return trip my mileage stayed at the same 20 mpg, hw. The passing power was fantastic - night and day difference from the trip up. It's all about power-on-demand. When you want power, mileage is irrelevant. When you're cruising, mileage should be nearly the same on a BOMB'd rig as a stocker, IMO. It's all about pedal discipline, rpm, and speed. Eash truck has its own sweet spot, and they're all big bricks, so power is needed to move the brick and push all that air, but when power sits nicely in the power curve (2000 rpm-ish) with the minimal pedal to keep it there, that's where the BOMB's can add up to make the cruising effort less work for the truck because it's making more inherent power. Boost of course helps so long as the egt's are accounted for. You get the fuel, boost, and egt's all dialed in, and you'll have a powerhouse that'll get good mileage, and you can pass lesser rigs with plenty to spare and leave 'em in yer smoke.



Around town mileage of course went down a little, but not much. I think I was getting about 16-17 before, and now maybe 15-16. Hard to tell, especially at 7000' altitude. I still have to adjust the pump now that I'm at this altitude to reduce the fuel at low boost - I get too much smoke and not enough 'go' off idle. Just haven't got there yet.



I'm now making more torque than the new 600's, and I totally dig not having the monthly payments. Yeah, it's not new, but I don't need new for what I need this truck for. Of course, over the next year I am restifying the truck (Big Honkin Project from Hell), and I'll be putting lots of $ into it, but I will still be way under the cost of a new one, so for me I'll get to have the old-school style with new-school power and reliability, and I won't worry about bashing a fender or replacing computers, etc etc.



- Sam