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Alan,

Since you began posting here you have always expressed your preference for GM V8 engines. You have defended GM big block gas hogs powering motorhomes claiming they are powerful, delivered good fuel economy, and are comparable to a Cummins TD.

You have also repeatedly praised or defended Isuzu V8 diesels. That's fine with me. If you like them buy one. Its your money, your choice. But you have never convinced me and probably no one else that they compare favorably with a Cummins.

Anyone who views a Furd or Nobama Motors V8 diesel as an equal choice obviously does not understand or chooses to ignore the fundamental superiority of an inline six cylinder turbo diesel engine. They are not and will never be an equivalent choice. If you use a truck mostly for transportation, want quick acceleration, like to trade trucks for a new one every two or three years, and don't mind paying the premium price, by all means buy a Furd or GM.

I am not impressed by bs artists in RV parks making outrageous claims about their choice of tow vehicle or trailer. We see it here. Everyone wants to believe that he made good choices and spent his money wisely and lying about his vehicles to someone sufficiently gullible to believe his nonsense helps him. There are members here who pretend their Keystone trailers are high quality units. You know that is a false belief.

Likewise, I am not impressed by people who make wild claims on websites about their trucks. Simply claiming his Isuzu diesel has 300k miles on the odometer is proof of nothing. As I wrote in my previous post, show me a man who has put 300k to 400k miles on his Furd or GM in commercial towing like hotshot haulers and RV transporters and still has a reliable truck that continues to do the work that I can verify and I might concede that those trucks have improved. I have pulled trailers with other transporters who drove GMs and Furds. I KNOW what those trucks can do and it is not much compared to a Dodge-Cummins.

If someone says "I bought my Keystone trailer or my Furd truck because it is my preference", I have no argument. They have simply expressed their choice. When they claim their Furd is superior or equal to a Cummins powered Ram truck I will always dispute their claim. That person is simply wrong and engaged in willful deceit or wishful thinking. It simply ain't true!

Furd and GM trucks cost more to buy, thousands of dollars more last time I looked, cost more to operate, cost more to maintain and repair, have shorter service lives, and lesser resale value with higher mileage. A V8 engine is a compromise for those who mistake quick acceleration for the mark of a serious truck motor.

When the commercial OTR trucking fleets of America, Canada, Europe, Central and South America, and other industrialized regions change their truck power plants from inline six cylinders to V8s get back to me. I'll consider a V8 diesel when they do.
 
HB... I am ready to buy. . I will easily trade/sell My 05 for New. . Cummins/Ram . . All My friends include Franklin,Jackson,Hamilton My friends awaite. . Something that gets my attention otherwise My friends I will keep. :)
 
You raise some good points, but I think your argument has gone a little off-topic. No one is arguing that the inline engine is a better execution than the V8. The problem is that Ram, which until recently overshadowed the Ford and Chevy/GMC, has now fallen behind, and in more than one performance parameter. There is no good reason the Cummins cannot deliver the performance and FE that the others do- they're all basically the same size engine. They all have 6-speed transmissions and similar or identical axle ratios. Perhaps Cummins has a trick up their sleeve where they can use DEF for NOX control and get rid of the EGR all together. That would be a game changer, but they (and Ram) might have a hard time selling it as they have always promoted the idea of not having to purchase an additional fluid. Of course, the'yre not telling you about the extra fuel burned or the premature disposal of 3 gallons of oil due to fuel dilution. It would be like you all of a sudden working on your "Chairman's" re-election campaign- how would you explain that away?



AFAIK, V type engine are much more common in Europe and Austraila than they are here in OTR trucks.
 
The Ram has not fallen behind at all in that matters in a working truck. As I frequently state, I don't give a damn about acceleration tests. What matters to me is initial purchase price, operating costs, comfort and convenience, ability to perform the duty it was purchased for with relative ease, long service life, and eventual resale value.

I'm not influenced by Consumer Reports or other magazine comparison testing. Their test parameters are irrelevant to me.

I wasn't "lucky" as AClayton wrongly stated above. I studied the brochures and made an informed choice. I chose a truck planned and designed for commercial duty and it does what I ask of it very well and troublefree.

At a gross weight of 25,000 lbs. I can hold the accelerator flat against the floor on steep grades and the pyro gauge will never climb above 1300*.

I had one CEL light about two years ago that cleared itself. I spoke with a Cummins engineer about it and was informed it was the result of a sensor programmed to monitor for a parameter that was set too tight. A later reflash included that adjustment in the menu of upgrades.

I haven't entered any acceleration contests with a Furd or GM but will cheerfully concede that those trucks can accelerate quicker.

If some of you like Furds or GMs you should buy them. Perhaps you should retain your TDR membership though because you will probably be back.
 
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I am also getting ready to buy a new truck to pull a fifth wheel RV trailer. I have been researching the Chevy,Ford and Ram pickups. I have found some articles regarding the reliability of the Ford, and Chevy diesel. "Ford's road to the Scorpion has been long and winding. The 6. 7-liter PSD is the third all-new heavy duty diesel engine in 7 years and the fourth since production of the 7. 3-liter Power Stroke ended in 2002. "
First Look: Ford's All-New 6. 7-Liter V-8 Power Stroke Diesel Engine - PickupTrucks.com News

"To put high mileage on a Duramax you need lots of motel discount cards, restaurant discounts, bags with clean clothes
for days, good shoes, bottled water and c-rations, AAA towing gold level with RV, extra cell phone batteries, lots of free
time and most important... . BRING TONS OF MONEY - CASH OR PLASTIC.

Generation 3 Injector Cost? [Archive] - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

I am going to buy the 2013 Ram with the new DEF emissions system. I can't afford to do this twice.
 
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I would do the same although I would suggest you at least consider a Ram cab and chassis.

A C&C requires an aftermarket bed and many consider them ugly but they have stiffer suspension, tough Aisin six speed automatics, less emissions control crap, and have been trouble free. The only negative is the C&C uses a detuned version of the 6. 7 rated at 305hp and 610 torque. The C&Cs make excellent tow vehicles and can tow past the dealerships without worrying about CELs or sooting issues.
 
I would do the same although I would suggest you at least consider a Ram cab and chassis.



A C&C requires an aftermarket bed and many consider them ugly but they have stiffer suspension, tough Aisin six speed automatics, less emissions control crap, and have been trouble free. The only negative is the C&C uses a detuned version of the 6. 7 rated at 305hp and 610 torque. The C&Cs make excellent tow vehicles and can tow past the dealerships without worrying about CELs or sooting issues.



Good point... I even thought about buying the C&C and install the bed Conversion... If I had to buy New. . I already have 2 towing trucks. . I would still purchase the Ram on the Platform of work/tow only until warranty ended and then I mod heck out of it to My standards, I would Not buy for DD use.



Many are on the fence Just like Me when crunching the #s, I may only put 7K yearly on My DD truck. Gas was clearly the winner for DD use.
 
Good point... I even thought about buying the C&C and install the bed Conversion... If I had to buy New. . I already have 2 towing trucks. . I would still purchase the Ram on the Platform of work/tow only until warranty ended and then I mod heck out of it to My standards, I would Not buy for DD use.

Many are on the fence Just like Me when crunching the #s, I may only put 7K yearly on My DD truck. Gas was clearly the winner for DD use.

I have no argument with anyone who chooses a gas engine truck for daily driver service. What I feel strongly about is choosing a Furd or GM for frequent towing and long service.

I believe the Ram 3500 C&C makes an excellent platform for lighter weight tows and a 4500 or 5500 would be even better for loads up to the weight of medium duty and box trucks.
 
Not sure about anyone else, but if I can get a 3/4 4x4 that will do everything I need using a gasser, this 06 model will be gone... I've almost had enough of this dang thing.

It appears as though I fix one thing, something else breaks on the Dodge parts. . and with only 50K on the clock... crap shouldnt be a breakin!!!.

FWIW, my new Ford 6. 7L has been back at the shop, when I picked it up, the service manager admitted that Ford is having engine and transmission issues... DUH!!!>. ben telling them that for 2 friggin years
 
Hbarlow.
I am with ya. When I bought this 09, I saw that there was a lot on it I had do upgrades on my old 2001. . I even had to do the disc brake conversion. So this truck with a great auto, a variable turbo/brake. . disc brakes, higher HP, . . Now just Today, I added the Pacbrake airbags to help level the truck when hauling my 5th wheel. Going to get an Aero 60 gal. tank. . no drilling of the frame. . some sweet truck I have
 
The eng is detuned for "lower cost of operation" according to Dodge.

That is true and perhaps also to make them less vulnerable to the temptation of frequent hard acceleration and abuse by employee drivers.

The C&C pulls steep grades heavily loaded as well as the previous Rams I owned but the ECM programming limits EGT to around 1300* and the truck doesn't accelerate as hard or screech the tires during full throttle shifts like a Ram pickup when unloaded. Of course it is heavier with an aftermarket steel bed rather than a thin, stamped steel pickup bed.

The best features are the stiffer suspension that doesn't sag under the kingpin weight of a heavy fiver and doesn't require air bags or Timbrens and it doesn't have soot problems or CELs. I think the Aisin six speed automatic is tougher than the 68RFE also. The C&C was designed and built to serve as a commercial truck.
 
The Ram has not fallen behind at all in that matters in a working truck. As I frequently state, I don't give a damn about acceleration tests. What matters to me is initial purchase price, operating costs, comfort and convenience, ability to perform the duty it was purchased for with relative ease, long service life, and eventual resale value.



I'm not influenced by Consumer Reports or other magazine comparison testing. Their test parameters are irrelevant to me.



I wasn't "lucky" as AClayton wrongly stated above. I studied the brochures and made an informed choice. I chose a truck planned and designed for commercial duty and it does what I ask of it very well and troublefree.



At a gross weight of 25,000 lbs. I can hold the accelerator flat against the floor on steep grades and the pyro gauge will never climb above 1300*.



I had one CEL light about two years ago that cleared itself. I spoke with a Cummins engineer about it and was informed it was the result of a sensor programmed to monitor for a parameter that was set too tight. A later reflash included that adjustment in the menu of upgrades.



I haven't entered any acceleration contests with a Furd or GM but will cheerfully concede that those trucks can accelerate quicker.



If some of you like Furds or GMs you should buy them. Perhaps you should retain your TDR membership though because you will probably be back.



Harvey, you always like to use the term 'defend'. I am not really defending the other diesels or even the big-block gas hog. I am merely 'comparing' them to Cummins and Dodge. You make the claim that you thoroughly researched the entire field of trucks and drew your conclusions and wisely chose your C&C 3500. You didn't even look at Ford or Chevy as a viable option! Basically, all I was doing was saying that Ford and Chevy have upped the ante and now Ram is behind. All three trucks have their problems with the emissions hardware that our Govt. has forced down our throats.



I am aware that winning a drag race doesn't make it a work truck, but it does indicate raw horsepower. I am aware that magazines articles are written to sell copies! But how many times do you need to read that Ram and Cummins are behind in nearly every single category? Wait... ... . don't answer that! I can already here your textbook 'smug' reply to that question. Fuel economy of the Cummins while loaded has always been the standard refutable reply to the other diesels. Even that has been taken away from us! Standard exhaust brake?? Are you starting to understand my point?? Ram needs to get OUR attention again... ... . they are behind, AGAIN!



Maybe that WOULD be a great magazine write-up... ..... put 150k miles on all three trucks and add up all the expenses including fuel used, trips to the dealer and minor or major mechanical breakdowns. Pin all three trucks together and do the same test as they did before. I am a Cummins fan and I want to see the results of this test!! The 6. 0 and 6. 4 and maybe even the Duramax would not have tested well in the past against our trucks..... I would like to see how they would stack up now.



And last but not least: Harvey, I am a Cummins fan and I said I would make my truck last until I felt that Ram got it right. Isn't that basically what you did? I am effectively utilizing my time WAITING for the right truck from Ram so that I can go up and replace my truck. Right now a gasser could possibly be an excellent daily driver when compared to a newer emission laden truck. Even by purchasing a C&C, you DID take a gamble by purchasing a truck in the 08' model year when you consider that the emissions 'crap' was not fully tested and confirmed trouble-free. You single-handedly performed the biggest 'NO-NO' that all perspective buyers should know better than to do... ..... you gambled and purchased a new model year truck that was not thoroughly tested. In your case, it may have worked for you and of course, we are happy for you. We are all Cummins enthusiasts here and it is always good to here positive remarks from our owners.
 
Harvey, you always like to use the term 'defend'. I am not really defending the other diesels or even the big-block gas hog. I am merely 'comparing' them to Cummins and Dodge.


Defend GMs or criticize Dodge-Cummins as inferior to them . . . what's the difference?

You make the claim that you thoroughly researched the entire field of trucks and drew your conclusions and wisely chose your C&C 3500. You didn't even look at Ford or Chevy as a viable option! .

No I didn't. Perhaps you misunderstood my comment. I paid no attention to the GM or Furd. I had just spent three years transporting and was very familiar with those inferior brands. I had no interest whatsoever in either. I reviewed Dodge Ram pickup and Dodge Ram cab and chassis brochures and inspected and test drove each.

Basically, all I was doing was saying that Ford and Chevy have upped the ante and now Ram is behind.

Yes, I know. But I strongly disagree with your conclusion.

All three trucks have their problems with the emissions hardware that our Govt. has forced down our throats.

I am aware that winning a drag race doesn't make it a work truck, but it does indicate raw horsepower. I am aware that magazines articles are written to sell copies! But how many times do you need to read that Ram and Cummins are behind in nearly every single category?

Raw horsepower means squat to me and to working trucks. Horsepower is about acceleration. Low rpm torque defines towing and grade climbing ability and also provides improved fuel economy and long service life. Perhaps that misunderstanding is the reason you don't value the superiority of the Cummins inline six.

Wait... ... . don't answer that! I can already here your textbook 'smug' reply to that question. Fuel economy of the Cummins while loaded has always been the standard refutable reply to the other diesels.

Even that has been taken away from us!

Standard exhaust brake??

What is the meaning of that statement? Dodge dealers were offering a MOPAR packaged-dealer installed Jacobs exhaust brake in the late '90s for manual transmissions. Dodge has offered them as optional equipment ordered with the truck for manual and automatics beginning with MY2006. When the ISB6. 7 replaced the 5. 9 all Cummins engines now have a powerful exhaust brake. If Furd and GM now offer one it is still not comparable with the Cummins.

Are you starting to understand my point?? Ram needs to get OUR attention again... ... . they are behind, AGAIN! . .

Yes, I still understand your point and will once again state emphatically that you are mistaken. Dodge-Cummins trucks are not behind in any criteria that matters to truck users. They may be behind at the local hangout where the boys brag about whose truck is faster stoplight to stoplight or in a quarter mile but that is of no interest to me.

Maybe that WOULD be a great magazine write-up... ..... put 150k miles on all three trucks and add up all the expenses including fuel used, trips to the dealer and minor or major mechanical breakdowns. Pin all three trucks together and do the same test as they did before. I am a Cummins fan and I want to see the results of this test!! The 6. 0 and 6. 4 and maybe even the Duramax would not have tested well in the past against our trucks..... I would like to see how they would stack up now.

And last but not least: Harvey, I am a Cummins fan and I said I would make my truck last until I felt that Ram got it right. Isn't that basically what you did? I am effectively utilizing my time WAITING for the right truck from Ram so that I can go up and replace my truck. Right now a gasser could possibly be an excellent daily driver when compared to a newer emission laden truck.

Even by purchasing a C&C, you DID take a gamble by purchasing a truck in the 08' model year when you consider that the emissions 'crap' was not fully tested and confirmed trouble-free. You single-handedly performed the biggest 'NO-NO' that all perspective buyers should know better than to do... ..... you gambled and purchased a new model year truck that was not thoroughly tested.

Not true. The 2007. 5 ISB6. 7 cab and chassis had been in service almost a year and in use by people like TDR member EB by the time I ordered mine. It was engineered and tested by Cummins. I have observed Cummins engineering and testing and spoken with one of the engineers about their testing. They take an ordinary Dodge-Cummins, add instrumentation and trailer to create maximum gross combined weight, and run them around the clock for 100,000 miles on the highways and roads of Indiana before they are offered for sale to the public. I trust them and was proven right in my confidence. The fact is, the pickups have also been generally trouble free also except for the ones used as commuter cars.

In your case, it may have worked for you and of course, we are happy for you. We are all Cummins enthusiasts here and it is always good to here positive remarks from our owners.

I understand that you also like the Dodge-Cummins but you place an inappropriate amount of weight or value on silly magazine testing using test criteria of little value to most of us who own and use (or have used in my case now) the Dodge platform and Cummins engine for what they were designed to do - haul and tow heavy loads every day in commercial service.

What I have said and will say again is I don't give a hoot what a magazine test concludes. Their test results are irrelevant to me. If I were going back to Wakarusa, IN tomorrow to start hauling trailers for Horizon Transport again I would want my Dodge with 115k miles not a new GM or Furd. If I decide to hook up my fifthwheel and wander around the US this coming summer I want to do it with my Dodge-Cummins which is tested, proven, and known to be reliable and durable. I would not trade it title for title for a new Furd or GM.

I was talking yesterday to a friend who was formerly a Dodge dealer mechanic and is now a Volvo heavy equipment mechanic. He owns my old '01 Ram now but his personal preference is Furds. He has a GM4500 company work truck with about 160k miles. He says the basic engine and Allison transmission are holding up well but everything else on the truck from engine accessories to the cab, dash, switches, etc. are junk and falling apart.

Wingate just wrote in a post yesterday that his company Furd F-550 and all others according to the dealer service manager who provides warranty service are experiencing engine and transmission problems - expensive ones!

Keep your magazines, I don't read them.
 
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Harvey,

It is absolutely pointless to try and make you admit that you can be a little obtuse at times. We all understand that here on these forums! My point is the same: Ford and Chevy have upped the ante and the Ram is behind. I can copy and paste each and every article I come in contact with and you would smugly ignore it and make the same 'chest pounding' conclusion that 'Cummins is better no matter what'. You will attempt to once again state that you have logged several hundred thousand miles on two previously owned trucks and had few failures. But now the all important figure of fuel economy comes into play. I'm not going to sit you down and bore you with all the math and do it for you but the advantage is clear over the long haul, that Ram is behind in fuel economy. Ford's new diesel is far from 100% proven and you have to be naive to think that one of Wingates' posts about his work truck woes is any kind of a credible example of a poorly designed truck. If I am to remember that post correctly, they were very early model year trucks. The 1st Cummins 6. 7's had their problematic issues as well... ... ... . does that mean they are junk to?


You have to understand that I am not advocating for the other brands. I am waiting for Ram to meet my expectations so I can go out and spend my money wisely. My opinion is that Ram is behind and I feel that it is my responsibility as a Cummins enthusiast to wait until my needs are met... ... ... doesn't mean that I am considering another brand. Think about it: Ford and Chevy build better trucks and now Ram will have no choice but to build a better truck to outdo them all again!

Testers in magazines do what they are paid to do, but it is really hard to deny the test material and editors in our own trusted TDR magazine. The facts are right there for all of us to read and comprehend right there in our own TDR magazine..... people who know the Cummins the best!!! I would like to think that it was done professionally and by credible Ram and Cummins enthusiasts. You still choose to ignore the facts! That is your opinion and I am not much different than you Harvey, the difference is that I can accept that Ram may be a little behind right now. And contrary to what you may think, whether you want to admit it or not, fuel economy is VERY important to 'hotshotters'. If you don't like a particular brand of truck or diesel... ... fine, but I think it would be wise to make an educated opinion based on facts..... not 6year old conversations with 6. 0 owners of the past.

Alan
 
Both CAT and Cummins have TQ Labs here In MN Cummins (Fridley) and Cat Global Road Brooklyn Park, I was Under contract to Cat in 2009/10. . My own eye's seen the future I will wait until high Tech Motors are In production (The Heck with blue tech). You will have the DFs but all the EGR DPFs will be gone. I agree with Alan I will wait,Just to Give HB something to chew on MY New R/T came home Yesterday... So don't come back with I don't have the Cash and play I can't afford it card.
 
Harvey,

It is absolutely pointless to try and make you admit that you can be a little obtuse at times. We all understand that here on these forums! My point is the same: Ford and Chevy have upped the ante and the Ram is behind. I can copy and paste each and every article I come in contact with and you would smugly ignore it and make the same 'chest pounding' conclusion that 'Cummins is better no matter what'. You will attempt to once again state that you have logged several hundred thousand miles on two previously owned trucks and had few failures. But now the all important figure of fuel economy comes into play. I'm not going to sit you down and bore you with all the math and do it for you but the advantage is clear over the long haul, that Ram is behind in fuel economy. Ford's new diesel is far from 100% proven and you have to be naive to think that one of Wingates' posts about his work truck woes is any kind of a credible example of a poorly designed truck. If I am to remember that post correctly, they were very early model year trucks. The 1st Cummins 6. 7's had their problematic issues as well... ... ... . does that mean they are junk to?


You have to understand that I am not advocating for the other brands. I am waiting for Ram to meet my expectations so I can go out and spend my money wisely. My opinion is that Ram is behind and I feel that it is my responsibility as a Cummins enthusiast to wait until my needs are met... ... ... doesn't mean that I am considering another brand. Think about it: Ford and Chevy build better trucks and now Ram will have no choice but to build a better truck to outdo them all again!

Testers in magazines do what they are paid to do, but it is really hard to deny the test material and editors in our own trusted TDR magazine. The facts are right there for all of us to read and comprehend right there in our own TDR magazine..... people who know the Cummins the best!!! I would like to think that it was done professionally and by credible Ram and Cummins enthusiasts. You still choose to ignore the facts! That is your opinion and I am not much different than you Harvey, the difference is that I can accept that Ram may be a little behind right now. And contrary to what you may think, whether you want to admit it or not, fuel economy is VERY important to 'hotshotters'. If you don't like a particular brand of truck or diesel... ... fine, but I think it would be wise to make an educated opinion based on facts..... not 6year old conversations with 6. 0 owners of the past.

Alan

More meaningless drivel, Alan.

What is it you don't understand about I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of Furds or GMs? Not you, magazine journalists, or anyone else.

They are inferior and I don't want one. You can write thirteen more posts spinning the same irrelevant information any way you wish but V8 diesels will always remain inferior to the Cummins inline six cylinder and I will never be interested in owning one regardless what Furd, GM, or magazines claim about them.
 
And what is it that makes YOU think I am trying to get you to 'like' Furds and Chevy's. You can be so stubborn... ... . like arguing with a woman sometimes!!! What don't you understand about the fact that it is not about in-line six and V-8 or gas or diesel. You don't think I drive the same damn truck you do and know all about the stump-pulling torque? For somebody claiming to be so intelligent, you can be so dense it is not funny!! It is about mileage and the fact that Cummins needs to update their emissions systems to be comparable to the others. That really isn't a dig to Ram so there is no need for you to continuously take up for our beloved Cummins trucks. Geez Bud... ..... you really need to consider medication!

Alan
 
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