Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) NV-5600 cooler and filter

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary:

Your tests are not long enough for proper evaluation. If I were to post temperatures after 50 miles they would be equal or less to your numbers. The transmission temperatures just rise steadily over time and effort. The transmission is a heat sink, and not like the engine that either cools or does not cool (a 50 mile test is appropriate). So on this latest 7 hour tow, after 1. 5-2 hours I am doing fine at approximately 200 degrees (ambient was 90+ degrees) The next hour the temp gradually increased from 200 to 225, increasing to 235+ at hills.

You are undoubtedly correct - longer and better testing will follow, altho' the best temp sensing device I currently have for this application is a laser based unit - but it has seemed pretty accurate in the past. A remaining area of question is, how accurate or reliable is Reading transmission case temps as compared to an actual immersed sensor/gauge? It would seem that measuring only the case temp would to some degree lag the actual lube temps - and perhaps not be tottaly accurate overall...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK - just returned from a nearly 1000 mile RV trip - and got to check transmission case temps under a variety of situations, and LONG operating times and distance.



WORSE case scenario seen, was a 90 degree temp rise towing at the 14,000 GCW level, up a long 7% grade - outside ambient temp was 78 degrees, and the transmission case indicated 168 degrees as measured with a digital infra-red temperature gun - that same maximum spread was verified in several other measurements.



Dunno how that compares with a "before" reading, since I'd not measured it before - and for the record, I'm using the regular DC specified transmission lube, and about 6 1/2 quarts of lube with my setup, as pictured at the beginning of this thread.



All in all, I'm quite satisfied with my results...

 

[PAckley]

Gary:



Again, we may be evaluating differently. I found that I could charge up a 10% grade with little effect on temps, but the cumulative temperature rise made a difference. It would make a difference if it was the first hour or the sixth hour. I never saw a 90 degree rise up a long hill, but I would see the continuous rise as a function of time, and the inability of the transmission to dissapate heat. The fast coolers are not enough radiator. Perhaps there is some merit that the right side actually takes heat from the exhaust, although I would doubt this would be the case while moving. My next change would be to use a different fluid. I did not use an infrared gauge, as I use the Edge temperature reading from the PTO. I think I will try to infrared to determine if the temp sensor I am using is registering a higher temp, although it should be more accurate than an IR gauge.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

My next change would be to use a different fluid. I did not use an infrared gauge, as I use the Edge temperature reading from the PTO. I think I will try to infrared to determine if the temp sensor I am using is registering a higher temp, although it should be more accurate than an IR gauge.

I've had poor results trying substitute lubes in my own personal transmission - invariably, they caused loss of synchronizer performance, with resulting gear grinding during gear changes. They may well lube better, and run cooler - but the gear grinding was unacceptable - these trannies each seem to have a personality of their own, and what works well in one often fails miserably in another.



I'll be very interested in seeing how temp readings may, or may not, vary between your 2 sampling points and methods - I suspect there will be a difference, especially a lag in lube temp changes due to the time it takes for the transmission case to "catch up" to actual lube temperature as conditions change.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

This post is WAYyyyyyy after the fact, for what is now an old thread - but not covered in any later posting by me, was that using the case temperature testing point, my setup never displayed the steady upward climb in temp in excess of 200 degrees as Phil commented upon in his own setup, either towing or empty - and remained at essentially 50-60 degrees above outside ambient temperatures. Ran the temp probe as seen in the photo at beginning of this thread, until I figured I had well established all the info I was looking for, so removed the test probe for other tests elsewhere.



As to Grizzly - sorry this is so late, but the recommended max temp for the 5600 (or most any equivalent transmission!) will be as reasonably low as you can get it - and will be specifically dictated by the data sheet of whatever particular brand/type lube you are running - for my part, I prefer a max of 200 degrees or less under the worse case scenario - and all my own testing in widely varying scenarios showed FAR less than that - long driving miles and grades, fully loaded and towing included!

 

[TMorgan1]

Gary,
I mentioned this the other day somewhere else on TDR but I never got a response that I thought was helpful. Why couldn't you install on each plate on the side of the transmission a bung for a line to circulate the transmission fluid in one side of the transmission and out the other. Seems like to me using a low pressure low flow pump to a small transmission cooler would cool the fluid adequately to solve this problem. I have had my fluid going away for a time now and when it does the shifting becomes harder and the only fix is to change fluid again. For me, I get about 10,000 miles out of the Amsoil and then it is due to be replaced again. I tow a heavy 5th wheel and I think that if the temps were controlled the fluid would last longer. I have tried other fluids and the Amsoil works best for me.....
Comments about the cooler would be appreciated.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Gary let his membership lapse last year. . .

 

[Wyomingcowboy]

What happened to Gary K7GLD? I really miss that guy's posts.

 

[Bob4x4]

Gary,

I mentioned this the other day somewhere else on TDR but I never got a response that I thought was helpful. Why couldn't you install on each plate on the side of the transmission a bung for a line to circulate the transmission fluid in one side of the transmission and out the other. Seems like to me using a low pressure low flow pump to a small transmission cooler would cool the fluid adequately to solve this problem. I have had my fluid going away for a time now and when it does the shifting becomes harder and the only fix is to change fluid again. For me, I get about 10,000 miles out of the Amsoil and then it is due to be replaced again. I tow a heavy 5th wheel and I think that if the temps were controlled the fluid would last longer. I have tried other fluids and the Amsoil works best for me.....

Comments about the cooler would be appreciated.

Similiar set ups have been used in Road racing,but you better be sure your sump stays full. That may take a large tank to be safe

 

[WDixon27]

i was thinking about a junkyard power steering pump running off the driveshaft to run it though a cooler, shouldn't need a sump/reservoir as everything it takes out of the transmission goes right back in

 

[TMorgan1]

Thats my thought about the reservior. Low pressure low volume something that would circulate the fluid slowly. The slower it goes through the cooler to a point the cooler the fluid would get? Another concern I was wondering about it mounting the cooler higher than the transmission. Would the transmission fluid drain back and overfill the transmission when the pump was turned off. These are concerns of many I have before I attempt this. I appreciate your input and different ideas about this. Lets keep these ideas coming... ... .

 

[WDixon27]

when you think about how fast a engine drive a pwst pump vs how slow a driveshaft spins flow shouldn't be that bad considering theres going to be no real back pressure, the pump deals more in pressure then volume in most cars and it may not be ideal but will be cheap and effective. drain back should be prevented by vacuum, with no place for air to get in fluid should stay in the upper portion if the input to the transmission is below the fluid level. id run a screened fitting on the intake like on a dry pump system, probably not necessary but a spin on filter could be plumbed in to the output side, could catch trash if the pump grenaided but could also blow up if it clogged as it is a high pressure pump

 

[Bob4x4]

1

P515582 this is the # for the Viper diff cooling pkg should be able to do what you want.

 

[Bob4x4]

Here is another that could work C5 Transmission Oil Cooler Kit 12480080 - Crate Engine Depot

 

[TMorgan1]

I had also thought about a spin on filter of some sort but had wondered about back pressure of the filter. To me, this whole idea doesn't seem complicated but the unknown of doing something that is normally not done to a manual transmission that keeps me questioning what I have in mind to do. An experiment on a very expensive transmission makes you want to do your homework. Thanks for all of your input... .

 

[WDixon27]

if you think about it most manual trannys go its whole life with nothing but a magnet and some don't get that, a filter is not really needed but a nice screen to trap pump vane bits if it blows up would be nice. a bypass filtration system may be the trick for clean without back pressure, but..... you'd need some back pressure to make that work so... .....

 

[JeffBob]

To my horror, I've witnessed 255 degree transmission temps in my Dodge 3500 Cummins dually towing my 13,000 lb toy hauler from Atlanta to Mid-Ohio Raceway. I installed gauges and a pair of the Fast Coolers and used the Amsoil gear oil. Through the entire ten-hour tow, the trans temp gauge just kept marching higher, right past the 250 max temp reading on the gauge! I though it was a bad gauge sending unit, so at about 255 degrees, I pulled off the highway and shot the transmission case with my IR heat gun and got a reading of 225 degrees off the PTO plate; so 255 oil bath seemed possible. Figure, at the gear faces, your hitting the 300 degree max of the Amsoil.

Now, when you stop to eat, it quickly cools 60 degrees or more, but then resumes it's Northward climb.

Upon returning from Mid-Ohio, I ordered up a large cooler, steel-braided lines and AN fittings, a filter mount, and a Tilton trans/diff oil pump. It took a bit of cash (about $700 in parts as I recall) and a lot of labor, but I now have a powered oil circulation cooling system with a 185 degree start and 150 degree shut-off ... which doesn't quite work, so I added an over-ride switch.

Now, on long tows and/or in hot weather,I can keep the transmission from getting any hotter than I like. But once over 205, the power cooler simply stays on. The bad news? (Other than the expense ... ) is worrying about the pump head leaking or an oil line getting snagged by road debris (like a semi re-tread -- that would do it), causing sudden catastrophic loss of oil in the trans and the trans.

Also, I switched from the Amsoil -- which never shifted well at any temp -- to the Redline which I MUCH prefer; it now shifts much better. Redline is the best at getting the synchros to mesh properly, just ask my BMW or my Porsche about it.

 

[EMAC2]

JeffBob, got any pictures of your set-up?

 

[JeffBob]

You know, I do recall shooting some, so let me dig around for those to post them. Otherwise I'll shoot some more. I basically tapped each of the fast coolers (driver's side cool line in, passenger side hot line out) and ran lines down the passenger side frame, mounting the Tilton oil pump, then the oil filter housing and then the large fan-driven cooler back in the dually fender-well, right where the truck bed meets the cab. I think I used AN-8 hoses and fittings. Most all of it sourced from Summit Racing.

 

[AABEN]

Nothing earthshaking - just a pictorial showing one half a NV-5600 with a Fast Cooler, and the other half with a filter installed. The Fast Coolers and transmission lube filters are available thru Genos thru this board.



The purpose of the coolers are to both provide added transmission lube cooling and also add lube capacity for better overall transmission operation and lifespan - looks like this installed:



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The added PC-type heatsink was done as an experiment to see if it added any significant cooling effect to what the Fast Cooler already is supposed to provide - I have NO illusions as to any vast benefit, just figured it was worth a try. As can be seen, I also have mounted a heat sensor to monitor the case temps in down-the-road situations - perhaps not the same as an actual temp sensor bathed my the lube, but all I have at the moment. The addition of these 2 items, plus a little overfilling allowed 6 quarts in the transmission.



The other side - the filter side also has an added heatsink - and the filter obviously deflects a percentage of operational lube flow into a cavity, then thru a small filter, then back out to the main transmission case.



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Reports from users indicate the filters really catch lots of crud, and I also added a powerful magnet inside the filter cavity of mine for some added benefit in attracting and retaining damaging ferrous materials. At 50K miles, and several lube changes, this was the first time I'd had the side covers off and attempted to clean out the transmission sump and magnet - both were very filthy, and certainly needed cleaning!



A couple of 50 mile runs over a pair of local 5000 foot mountain passes while towing my 12 foot fishing boat and gear delivered a nominal 50 degree temp rise - ambient outside temps were 75 degrees, the transmission monitor registered +- 50 degrees higher - I'm very curious what other users with a setup like mine - or just the coolers alone, typically see in terms of temperature rise in varying situations?



My digital temp monitor tops out at 156 degrees, so I'm pretty certain a hot summer day towing our 5th wheel will put it well off scale - but I also have an infra-red handheld temp monitor to use at higher temperatures...



Any comments?

That would be a very good set up if you were running in the desert or in mountains with a heavy load. I have temp gauge For my rear end For I do a lot of high speed driving pulling my trailer on the enterstates 70-75 this helps when it starts to clime I back down