Oil Analyist Not Good

[Cliffman]

Got my oil analyst back and the copper content was at 783 ppm and my iron was 208 ppm. . Called the oil analyst guys and he suggested that it could be from a copper oil cooler line. Problem is, I'm pretty sure that my truck is not equipped with an oil cooler line I looked all over the truck and I sure can't find any signs of a cooler other than the radiator, intercooler and air conditioner cooler. Does anybody know for sure if my year and model truck has an oil cooler? Check sig for truck description.

 

[Don M]

Can you give the rest of the report or more data?



How many miles on oil?

What type and brand?

Miles on truck?

Did you recently have any work done on the truck that involved any types of sealant or gaskets? Several have copper in them

What is the viscosity data from the report?



Your engine does have an oil cooler built into the side of the engine. Your filter is attached directly in front of it.



I have several theories as to what is hapening but need more info.



Don~

 

[Cliffman]

More Info

Okay Don,



*Mile on oil: 9611

*Amsoil 5-30

*Miles on truck: 65000

*Amsoil filter

*No work done on the truck that involved any types of sealant or gaskets.



*Viscosity data from the report: 10. 9 @ 100-c



Do you know if there is a copper line connecting the cooler?

 

[Don M]

The viscosity of the oil is right in line at 10. 9 cSt.

The range is 9. 3 to 12. 5 cSt for the oil.





No lines connecting the oil cooler,but the cooler is/has copper content.



Some of my thoughts are:

The sample was in a multiple run on the ICP at the lab and simply followed a high copper sample with some cross contamination occurring and the person interpreting your result over looked this. I have heard a lot of labs, due to lower profits,faster turn arounds and high competition the flushing periods between samples is generally reduced these days. This usually isnt a problem but if the previous sample was say a dirty heavy weight transmission oil it will flow slower through the tubing entering the plasma and even if a small particle of dirt enters it will slow the flushing process down just enough to get some cross contamination.



The iron is too high IMO as well. Is it cross-contam or is it high wear rates? I dont know. If you were towing high weights the iron could very well be from this and the fact that the oil was in there for nearly 10K. A recent article in the last TDR showed a truck that towed 5er's with about 15K on the oil and he had about 115ppm of iron using the same oil. From the very limited datum it is a jump to say the oil is at fault though.



Low cost labs are for trend analysis so you look at history and trends not each piece of datum. So far we have high iron and

copper in your sample and high iron in the TDR sample of the same type and brand of oil. Hardly enough to say the oil is not working yet. If you want to continue with this oil I would re-sample again and see what the report shows.



Me, I just drain and refill the oil sooner than recommended and dont have the sampling, analysis reports or high wear rates that can happen with the extended drain intervals. 200k on my truck and going strong.



Don~

 

[Cliffman]

Great Feedback

Thanks Don, that's some good info. Just so you know this is the second sample back to back with high copper and iron. The first sample was copper 162 and iron 88. So I put another 3000 miles on it, resample, changed the filter and added a fresh quart. My normal routine is to get 3 - 3000 mile service intervals and then change the oil.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

So your saying that you had 88 ppm iron and 162 ppm copper at 7,000 miles on the oil, and 208 ppm iron and 783 ppm copper at 10,000 miles? If that's the case then it sounds like wear metals to me and that they are greatly increasing. Your first sample was . 0126 ppm/mile on iron and . 0231 ppm/mile on copper, your second sample was . 04 ppm/mile on iron (a 317% increase) and . 207 ppm/mile on copper (an 896% increase). If it were me I'd pull another sample now and see what the results are to negate the cross contamination concern. From other peoples analysis running Amsoil and your viscosity you shouldn't be anywhere close to wearing out the oil. I would guess that there's wear metals coming from somewhere in the engine. You might take the sample now and then change your oil and resample in 3,000 miles. If you still are getting wear rates in that same ppm/mile range then there's something wrong in the engine. IMO this is the reason to run an analysis program even if you aren't running extended drain intervals. You have the opportunity to catch a problem in the engine way before it becomes a rebuild issue. For what it's worth I didn't have wear iron content anywhere near that running LE 15w40 after 20,000 miles with a lot of towing and drag racing on it.

 

[Cliffman]

Yep!!!!:--)

 

[Don M]

Ok, if we are showing copper and iron rates going up as you move along in miles then the copper and iron may not be from fast and dirty oil testing.

So if 3k ago in miles you were at 88 in iron and now at 200 you went up over 100ppm in iron in a very short time interval.

This is too high IMO for iron unless you were really working the truck. The copper can also be from accellerated bearing wear. There is a copper compenent in them too.



It may be slowly showing us/you that the oil is not quite optimal for this engine. Maybe, not absolute.



Another thing that can be considered is the oil weight is lower than what is called for in that engine for warm climates. Althouigh most guys say the 5/30 is showing lower wear rates than the 15/40 is. Amsoil does state the oil is good for twice the recommended interval so if it is 7500 miles with normal use you should be able to go 15k. With towing considered in the mix the interval decreases though. Many oil professionals are seeing this particular oil shear out or toast out of vis. spec. , but yours shows good here. Oxidation maybe? Perhaps an oil change could help break the chain of your problem.



Don~

 

[Cliffman]

Originally posted by Don M

Perhaps an oil change could help break the chain of your problem.



Don~

Your reading my mind Don. New batch goes in today!!! I'll pull a sample before and then 1500 after. Thanks for all your help. Love this site

 

[JJW_ND]

Interesting timing on the high Cu!



I just had a sample come back with high Copper. My high was 72 ppm. This is with 25K on the 5W30 Amsoil. This is the forth 25K interval I have ran with this oil. Sample every 6K with a Stratapore filter (no bypass) and makeup quart ever 6K. The highest iron I have ever seen was 120 ppm.



I do some hard pulling (hotshot stock trailers) summer and winter and don't think the 30W will fail.



Is it better then 40W oil of the same caliber??????



My last sample (18K on the oil) had copper at 12. This was up from my normal single digit readings I have had for over 150K work of samples.



My Visc100C was 10. 57, TBN was 10. 03 and iron was 47 with this last sample.



What Lab are you using Cliffman?



I use CTC.



Didn't the lab recomend changing the lube with your last sample? Mine did at 72ppm CU. I had changed it already as I go four 6K intervals before draing.



On thing I did just prior to the sample was install a new fuel lift pump. This might explain the last sample but would not explain the sample prior that was double or triple (@ 12ppm) of the previous dozens samples.



I let the oil drain overnight to get every drop out as I have seen carryover with a quick one hour or less drain. I switched to Mobil 5W40 just to see how it compares to the Amsoil. No comlaints with the Amsoil.



Any easy way to check the oil cooler? I have heard this is a somewhat commen problem with 1st gen trucks. Not heard it occuring with 2nd gen. If when my first 6K sample on this oil shows CU above 15ppm I know I got something going on.



jjw

ND

 

[Sled Puller]

Cliffman,

This is what sampling is for!

You are on the right track to finding a problem before it is a major problem.





High copper leachs from the Cummins oil cooler, comes and goes with no apparent reason. But I have never seen it that high.

Mine went from 14 to 300 back to 20's with a lot more miles on the 5W-30.

But the other wear metals were low.



Keep an eye on this thing.



The 5W-30 is an all climate oil.

Gene

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Cliffman,



Tell us what all your other metal counts are (aluminum, tin, lead). If these are high, then I would think there is something wrong with the oil. On my samples my aluminum after 20k on the oil is usually 8-10ppm and lead or tin about 1-2ppm.



I am currently running Amsoil 5W30 and have 19,800 miles on this change (I do 20K change cycles and use 3 Stratapore filters, no bypass, during the interval). I'll change it this weekend and send in a sample and I'll see how it does at 20k.



My last sample on 5W30 was around 28ppm (measure at 10,000 miles on oil). This isn't a bad number but when I ran 15W40 Amsoil on the previous change, I only reached 41ppm Iron after 20,000 miles. At 10,000 miles the numbers on the 15W40 was considerably better than the 5W30 and I don't plan to run the 5W30 again.



This change I'm goin' with Delvac 1 (I copy everything JJW_ND does )



Vaughn

 

[DEZLPWR]

Good choice with Delvac1....

I have used it, and have had great analysis results! (I have not tried the 20,000mi interval though. . )

 

[Cliffman]

Where's the copper comming from

Auhh, just thought of something... What about the VP-44 pump. Could the copper be coming from that. Does anyone know if there's copper parts in the VP-44??

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Even if it did the only way for it to get into the oil would be from blow by at the piston rings and you'd be seeing fuel contamination in the oil as well. The VP44 pump doesn't have any oil flowing through it like the P7100 does - the only fluid running through the VP44 is fuel.



-Steve

 

[Cliffman]

Oil Analyist Sheet

Well, I tried to post a jpg of my oil analyist sheet but the best I could do is a link. Kinda hard to read but I think you can make out the important stuff.



#ad

 

[Don M]

Have a look at your oxidation and see how it is creeping up.

The soot levels are getting up there too.

The Calcium in that 5w/30 is one of the best soot suspension additives that you can get. Magnesium as well , but this product does not use much of the Magnesium.



The calcium is small but holds the soot particles like a prisoner until they reach the filter. There the calcium drops the soot particle off in its holding tank or cell, so to speak in most cases.



Chromium is too high to at 6. 2 is what I always see, sometimes 1 or none. Is that a 50 in the lead catagory? That is high if so.

Aluminum at 21 is too high as well. Piston wear.



Glad your draining the oil and going with some fresh stuff.



As the wear metals are showing to be going up, the oxidation is at 22% and soot is 2. 2% Im struck that Oil Analyzers is saying to continue using the oil.



Don~

 

[Cliffman]

Thanks Don. Sounds like you know your stuff here. The Lead is 20 not 50

 

[JJW_ND]

If that soot is 1. 7 and then 2. 2 that is pretty high.



How do you use this truck to get these numbers?



WOW!





Nice to hear your comments Gene! I hope that is what I see. My Copper has always been done in the single digits since going synthetics.



jjw

ND

 

[amsoilman]

Cliffman,

Your truck does have an oil cooler as was mentioned by "Sledpuller". I have seen some oil analysis reports show high contents of (Cu) copper in the Cummins engines, but like he said, never this high! I really do not think in your case the oil is "breaking down" as you stated the Viscosity was 10. 9 cSt@100c. Can you tell us what the OXD rate was, as well as the TBN and Solids? Usually if there is a bearing problem, such as a rod or main, there will be high levels of (Sn)Tin, (Pb)Lead, (Cr)Chromium and (Al)Aluminum along with (Cu) Copper, as the bearings are alloyed together.

(Fe)Iron on the other hand will have the largest numbers on any oil analysis done on the Cummins engines, but yours is a bit high at 208 in less than 10,000 miles.

You may want to get another sample sent in to verify the readings, just to see if they are in the same ball park.

I presently have over 32,000 on this same oil, and my (Cu)copper reading is 6 ppm with (Fe)Iron at 136 ppm.



Best regards,



Wayne