Oil Analyist Not Good

[DavidD]

Just got back my winter oil analysis. I had never used the 5-30wt. before so this winter I tried it. I believe it went in in oct. and i just changed it 2 weeks ago and went back to amsoil 15-40HDD. The report shows at 9,800mi on oil with one filter change at 4,000.

Iron 24, alum. 3,copper 3, lead 2, tin 1, insolubles . 5%,fuel . 5%, vis @210-69, The truck has 112,000 mi on it now. I tought this was a pretty good analysis as its real close to my other #'s from 3years ago when I first went to amsoil. My shell at 3,000mi should almost identical #'s iron was 21 instead of 24. I am impressed with the series 3000 but I think i will stick with the 15-40 for the 100 degree summer, My humble and uneducated opinoin, Dave

 

[Don M]

A little more on the weight and smell of oils and why Cummins wants the heavier stuff for the warmer climates.



Hydraulic pressure is created from the oil flowing between two surfaces of say the rod bearings and the crankshaft.

Under perfect conditions the wear is almost nothing, but as the forces increase from a heavy foot or from a bombed engine with more power the increased pressure is squeezing even harder on the hydrodynamic wedge of oil. As the pressure or squeezing increases we get into what is called boundary lubrication where the oil is under so much pressure the wedge is almost non-existant or not enough to protect the parts from metal to metal scuffing. This is where the additives in the oil make the difference. They are the last line of defense to wear. The reason gear oil stinks so bad is the wear additives like zinc and phos have the odor. They are used in many oils today. Including engine oils.

Hence the stinkies from Rotella and other oils.

Expanding on the squeezing effect, the lighter weight oils will squeeze out easier than the thinner ones will. This is the reason you see nascar guys using 20/50 and other heavier weight oils in the big race. This is also why pwknapp above has over 400K on his original engine in his truck. The thicker oil of 15/40 is protecting his parts better at the high pressures created by the heavy loads he pulls. Check the zinc levels in dseabaugh's report and the zinc levels it contains. Zinc stinks and it also works as a very good boundary lubricant when the wedge is squeezed out.



Thinner oils rely on the add-pack more for wear reduction because the wedge is lost quicker.



Don~

 

[Dan Watson]

Good discussion! First let me introduce myself, I am the owner of AdvancedLubeTech and I run the banner ad on this site for Amsoil products. I like that up front so no one thinks I am trying to keep that a secret.



The use of ail analysis is an excellent way to monitor the engine for wear, predict failure and check the condition of the oil. Your sample should have given you several indicators of the condition of the oil. These include the viscosity, TBN, fuel dilution, oxidation, nitration, soot, glycol and water. These along with the spectrographic results will easily tell you if the oil is in good shape or has been exhausted.



The analysis of the wear metals can give you an idea of where the wear is coming from. As others have said in this thread, the main sourse for the copper you are seeing is from the oil cooler and this means the one that comes standard in the radiator as well as additional add on varieties.



The only other real source of copper is from the main crank or connector rod bearings. I'm sure this is not the case because the lead that coats the copper to form the babbit of the bearings would have to wear through to expose the copper and you have not reported any high lead content.



The high iron can be from several sources and but usually is from the cylinder walls. In my experience, fuel is the most common cause of high iron. When the fuel injectors begin to spray raw fuel not atomized as desired into a cylinder it will reduce the viscosity of the oil at the ring cylinder wall interface and cause the wear of iron. You will not see any fuel dilution in the oil because it is vaporized by the temp of the oil and never shows up on the analysis. There may be an abnormal increase in nitration levels of the oil but not enough to really stand out. The partially burned fuel contributes to the nitration levels but this may only be and is likely only happening in one cylinder.



The quick fix if the problem persist, and it may not, is to go to a grade higher viscosity and this will maintain a higher viscosity on the cylinder wall reducing the iron wear. The other fixes are to use a good grade diesel additive and clean up the injectors for optimum performance.



The copper is an illusive problem that will come and go in Cummins over the life of the engine. It is really of little concern unless it is coupled with increases in lead.



If you can give me the rest of the sample results I can look for some more clues and see if there are other possibilities.



It was mentioned that the Amsoil 5W-30 has been known to shear out or toast out! This is a statement without merit; show me some credible evidence of this. I have never seen this in hundreds of customers and their oil samples. Please don't make unsubstantiated remarks that question the quality of the Amsoil 5W-30. It is obviously, a right to choose the oil of your choice but don't knock a product with rumor or unsubstantiated information.



I hope this info is helpful and if I can answer any specific questions on oil analysis please ask here or email me direct or click on my banner ad for Amsoil and check out the section on my website for how to interpret oil analysis.



Dan Watson

www.AdvancedLubeTech.com

 

[Cliffman]

Good Feedback

Dan, Thanks for your interest in this thread. I can use all the help I can get Here's a link to the analyist sheet. The quality of the pic has a lot to be desired but I think you'll be able to make out most of it and what you cant read just let me know and I'll post it here.



Thanks

 

[Dan Watson]

I don't see the link!



Dan Watson

 

[Cliffman]

Doooop

Here ya go Dan



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=1118&width=4

 

[Dan Watson]

Cliffman



I got the sample report and it is hard to read but I only have a couple of questions. I need the following info:



Sample 3/10/02

miles on component

miles on the oil

Viscosity at 100*C

NOX



Sample 1/13/02

miles on component

miles on the oil

Viscosity at 100*C

OXD

NOX



Sample ?/21/01

miles on component

miles on the oil

Viscosity at 100*C

NOX



Sample ?/21/01

miles on component

miles on oil

Viscosity at 100*C

OXD

NOX



Sample 4/??/01

Component miles

miles on oil





I need these numbers and I just can't read them.



Thanks Dan

 

[Cliffman]

Here ya go Dan...





Sample 3/10/02

miles on component: 67846/m

miles on the oil : 12457

Viscosity at 100*C : 10. 9

NOX : 17. 1



Sample 1/13/02

miles on component : 60270/m

miles on the oil : Unkown, No more than 15000

Viscosity at 100*C : 11. 1

OXD : 21. 1

NOX : 11. 4



Sample 5/21/01

miles on component : 35411/m

miles on the oil : 16664

Viscosity at 100*C : 11. 8

NOX : 12. 9



Sample 5/21/01

miles on component : 35411/m

miles on oil : Unknown

Viscosity at 100*C : 11. 4

OXD :5. 6

NOX :11. 4



Sample 4/08/01

Component miles : 29776/m

miles on oil : unknown/m

 

[Dan Watson]

Cliffman,



I think I can shed some light on this but first I need to make a point about oil sampling.



First, it is important to understand the necessity to sample at regualr frequencies and to know the service interval for the oil. The quick check of the physical properties of the oil is only one of the evaluations you can make when looking at the analysis. This tells you if the oil is suitable for continued use but there is so much more available.



How do you know if the engine, trans or whatever the component is doing as well as you would like or is there some indication of a looming problem. This is where trend analysis is used. Trend analysis is the comparison of the results to see if there is a trend of worse results in some area and then trying to determine why. Now what makes regular intervals or at least knowing the exact duration the oil has been in service so important is that you expect more wear for longer intervals of service and less for shorter intervals of service. Also, you would expect the indicators for the oil such as OXD (oxidation) and NOX (nitration) to also vary with the service interval. This is very hard to do if you don't know the miles or hours the oil has been in service. It is really not necessary to have the exact service interval for every sample but it is really better to keep it in the ball park.



One method of comparison is to reduce all wear numbers to ppm per mile. This is useful but I prefer either ppm per 100 miles or ppm per 1000 miles. This is done by dividing the ppm of the element such as iron by the miles of service interval and multiplying by 100 or 1000 to get the comparable results in per 100 miles or per 1000 miles.



Now back to your sample. For the two samples that we know the miles of service:



5/21/01 16,666 miles and 3/10/02 12,457 miles



Iron is 6. 36 / 1000 miles and 16. 69 / 1000 miles respectively.



Copper is . 54 / 1000miles and 62. 86 / 1000 miles respectively



The levels of copper are clearly from a source of contamination not wear. The ability to get this amount of copper in the oil from wear would require a significant removal of lead from the bearing babbit to get down to the copper that lies underneath the lead. This has happened in other Cummins and appears to be from the oil cooler in the radiator. Now remember, it doesn't take much to create these levels because ppm stands for parts per million. So for example, this level of 783 ppm in you oil would make 783 lbs of copper if you had a million pounds of oil at this concentration.



The iron levels are less clear but related. This large level of copper really acts like a rubbing compound for the cylinder walls. See the copper that produced this is not in submicron particles. It came as something in much larger peices and your filter is only able to remove down to maybe 15 microns but this would be a very short lived action because the larger particles would probably combine with soot and then be removed by the dispersant and the filtration. The larger action of the copper in these submicron levels is to act as a catalyst to promote greater Oxidation of the oil. This is clearly evident in your sample and should have shown some indication in the viscosity going up. But the viscosity didn't go up and the soot levels did go up. I believe you have some slow reduction in the efficiency of your fuel injectors. This is usually when they are not spraying a 360 degree patter and getting the fuel fully atomized. It is possible that one injector is putting some raw fuel in the cylinder and this is the source of the higher iron levels. By the way, these iron levels are not really very elevated it is really the problem of not knowing why the increase.



Recommendations: Go ahead and change the oil and filter. The only way to get the copper out short of a bypass filter is to change the oil. Make sure you have a good air filter and you are not creating a starved air situation. Use a fuel injector cleaner such as Amsoil diesel concentrate or some equivalent. Sample at 5,000 miles to see what is going on and then again at 10,000 on the same oil if it is Amsoil.



Remember, the sample points should be approx the same for ease of comparison. You really don't have to sample every 5,000 miles to be safe but in this case the early sample at 5,000 miles is to check on the previous conditions and see if they are persistient.



I hope this helps.

Dan Watson

AdvancedLubeTech

(see my banner ad this site)

 

[amsoilman]

Dan,

Good job!!!





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Cliffman]

Do'en it right!

Dan, I didn't realize that the intervals were so important . I will now be more consistent in my filter intervals and change intervals and also keeping track of my mileage between filter changes Thanks for taking the time to make such a complete analysis of my oil problem. I already changed the oil last week and took a sample just prior.



What is your opinion of the oil weight issue? 5-30 or 15-40. I'm not too concerned about fuel mileage and I live in San Jose, Ca.

 

[stick]

I don't know, i didn't read this whole thread, but my high copper chase turned out to be the turbo bearings. I changed the cooler after many suggestions to do that, and it didn't help. So the next step was the turbo, and after that the copper went down!

Stick

 

[Little Bill]

Dan Watson and others,



What is the relationship between NOx and oil acidity ? If water is present, then some acidic compounds should be formed and they would attack copper. I would expect oil acidity to be variable and dependant on (1) NOx content and (2) short runs versus long hauls where water and nitrated acids would be volatilized and driven off via crankcase vent.