Oil Analysis by Blackstone

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I've had 2 oil samples done now since buying my used '98 at 49,000 miles. This has been discussed before, but I don't recall what numbers others had. BLackstone labs completed and returned oil analysis results much faster than expected. Here's my numbers:

1st sample: About 6,000 miles on unknown 15W40 conventional oil, no makeup oil.

2nd sample: 3,100 miles on Delvac1 5W40 Synthetic oil, no makeup oil.

SAMPLE 1 (Universal average in parenthesis)
2 (4) Aluminum
1 (2) Chromium
11 (23) Iron
1 (6) Copper
2 (8) Lead
0 (152) Boron
403 (461) Magnesium
1005 (1070) Phosphorous
1047 (1208) Zinc
67. 7 (68-78) SUS Visc. (below "OK" level)
<0. 5% (<2. 0%) Fuel
0. 5% (1. 0%) Isolubles
420F (>405F) Flashpoint


SAMPLE 2 (Universal Avg. in parenthesis)
2 (4) Aluminum
0 (2) Chromium
9 (23) Iron
1 (6) Copper
2 (8) Lead
173 (152) Boron
463 (461) Magnesium
1125 (1070) Phosphorous
1164 (1208) Zinc
77. 3 (68-78) SUS Viscosity
<0. 5% (<2. 0%) Fuel
0. 3% (1. 0%) Insolubles
420F (>405F) Flashpoint

No trace of Water or Antifreeze. No trace of tin, molybdenum, nickel, manganese, silver, titanium, vanadium, or barium (probably don't have most of these metals in our engines).

I thought it would be fun to compare well-used conventional oil with low-mile synthetic. I think I will wait until I reach 10K and resample it when I change it. The oil on the 2nd sample came out of the filter. At least 30% of my driving on these oil changes have been short-trip, running around town.

The conventional oil dropped below the "OK" range on viscosity, whereas the synthetic was on the high side of "OK". And there was no Boron, whatever that means. Most interesting: the conventional oil and synthetic oil had identical flash points. Where is the supposed synthetic advantage here??
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3rd EDIT JOB: Decided to put numbers on the left so they line up enough to be readable!
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Vaughn MacKenzie

1998 3/4T Quad Cab 4x4, 24-valve, 5-speed w/3. 54 rear, White over Driftwood, Fog Lamps, Air Dam, Agate leather with most options.
245/75/16 Kelley Safari MSRs on M/T Classics, DeeZee running boards, diamond tread bedrail & tailgate protector.
55,560 miles (1/11/00)


[This message has been edited by Vaughn MacKenzie (edited 01-14-2000). ]

 

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Vaughn,
I am going to start using synthetic oil as soon as I get some info from Wayne (amsoilman). How do I get the info on Blackstone so I can start the sampling process?
Thanks for the info, Terry

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Vaughn,
Let me give you my oil analysis results so you can compare them to yours.

Bear in mind, these readings are after 85,000 miles on the oil without a drain!

Oil used:Amsoil 15W-40 Synthetic

Iron: 77
Chromium: 0
Lead: 7
Copper: 13
Tin: 0
Aluminum: 8
Nickel: 0
Silver: 0
Manganeze: 0
Silicon: 14
Boron: 1
Sodium: 3
Magnesium: 662
Calsium: 2429
Barium: 1159
Phosphurous: 900
Zinc: 1142

Fuel %Vol <1
Vis @100 C. 12. 95 cSt(equivelant to 69. 8 SUS)
Water %Vol 0
Solids % Vol 0. 3
Glycol: Neg

Now the important thing for extended drains.

TAN(Total Acid in used Oil) 3. 91
TBN(Total Base Number of new oil)7. 46

The TBN of the Amsoil 15W-40 synthetic oil has a TBN of 12 when new.

The TBN of an oil is very important as this number represents the oils reserve capability to counteract(Nuetralize)acid formation from combustion by products.

TBN values will decrease over the service life of a lubricant as it neutralizes acidic by-products.


Wayne
amsoilman

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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.

 

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Wayne:
Are you saying that you added NO makeup oil in 85,000 miles? That would be truly amazing!

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'00,2500,4x4,QC,LB,6spd,3. 54,4wABS,Camper-Trailer packs,BD Brake,Pullrite 20. 5K 5hitch,Tekonsha EnvoySV,CobraCB,Flame Red/Silver.

 

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RonVB,
No,I don't think I even mentioned anything about adding "make-up" oil, but yes, I did add make-up oil. In 100,000 miles, I did add nearly 3 gallons of make-up oil, which is nearly 1 quart every 8,500 miles. But I did remove 4 ozs. from the engine for oil analysis purposes every 10,000 miles as well, so there you have it.

Best regards,

Wayne
amsoilman

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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.

 

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And I'm assuming you changed both filters on a regular basis. Would that not account for another one or two quarts every 8K-10K miles or so?

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'00,2500,4x4,QC,LB,6spd,3. 54,4wABS,Camper-Trailer packs,BD Brake,Pullrite 20. 5K 5hitch,Tekonsha EnvoySV,CobraCB,Flame Red/Silver.

 

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RonVB,
Other than the original two filters, I only changed then 2 times in 100,000 miles. In the 105,000 miles this oil was used, there were a total of 3 by-pass filter elements, and 3 full-flow filter elements used.

Wayne
amsoilman

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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.

 

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Well now I'm really confused. Your original post said 85,000 miles, now it's 100,000 or is it 105,000?

Well in any case, 12 qts (3 gal) of makeup oil plus 6 qts of filter filling oil plus 1. 25 qt of sampling oil equals 19. 25 qts total and in my book that's just about equal to two complete oil changes during this period, whatever period it was.

Point is, at 85,000 miles, the majority of your oil was not the same oil you started with.

 

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Wayne, I still haven't got the papers you sent. Can you send them please?

SCOTT

 

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RonVB,
Yes, to you could be confusing, but the report I gave, was the one that was done at the 85,000 mile mark. When I sent that information out, I did not have the most recent report nearby.

Yes, the oil was basicly replaced after this many miles, but I never did have to pull the "plug", drain the pan, take the used oil to a recycle center, or get rid of 45 one gallon containers either! And the bottom line, is this. I know what is happening inside my engine, and if I were just draining the oil every several thousand miles, I would no nothing, other than I just replaced my oil.

I would not know if there were contminants such as water, fuel, dirt or Glycol getting in it, until perhaps is was too late!

Wayne

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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.

 

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Voiding my 100K (136K?) engine warranty just to eliminate the need to carry 3 gallons of used oil to the local auto parts store every six months doesn't seem like sound advice to me. And if pulling the plug is such a task, I suggest you try the quick drain setup from Geno's. Works great!

As for "knowing what is happening inside my engine", maybe, but no more then those of us who follow the DC maintenance schedule. Here's why:

Oil analysis will tell you essentially two things, 1) the condition of your oil and 2) the wear trends of your engine (but only after repetative, periodic sampling).

I don't need an oil analysis to determine number (1) if I follow DC's maintenance schedule. They have already determined that API approved oils will protect my engine up to 7500 miles AND have backed it up with their assurance to repair my engine if it does not.

Number (2) will only be useful IF I sample repetitively and on the same regular interval, use the same analysis shop, oil and filter, don't add makeup oil before sampling, AND I cut open my oil filters for inspection and analysis (which I believe not many are doing). This last point is critical, especially for those running bypass filters because a lot of the SIGNIFICANT wear metals will be in the filter not in the oil.

Any coolant or injector leaks of any concern that would show up in an oil analysis will manifest themselves in other more obvious ways long before my next 10K mile oil analysis (And frankly, out of the 1/2 million engines put into service, how many really have these kinds of problems?).

Finally, getting back to Vaughn's original post:

Comparing each others oil analysis is like comparing milage figures. Unless we each sample at the same interval, use the same lab and filters, add the same amount of makeup oil at the same time, etc, our figures relative to each other are really meaningless other then to point our GROSS malfunctions or component failures.

In the aviation business, we follow the procedures in (2) above but in no case do we divert from the manufacturers recommended oil change requirements regardless of the type of oil used. There's just no place to pull over at 10,000 feet.

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'00,2500,4x4,QC,LB,6spd,3. 54,4wABS,Camper-Trailer packs,BD Brake,Pullrite 20. 5K 5hitch,Tekonsha EnvoySV,CobraCB,Flame Red/Silver.

 

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RonVB,
I do appreciate your idea's on the subject of "extended Oil drains". However, I must say this. If an oil is suspected to have caused internal failure of some particular part, the only way to determine this is to do an oil analysis, period! No other method is going to give you an answer! And any reputable engine manufacturer is going to accept the results from that test! These kinds of tests have already proven themselves in court.

True, a single sampling analysis is useful in providing information when critical failure conditions exist. However, trend analysis is a better tool for estimating the useful life or overall condition of an engine or equipment. Comparing the most recent analysis to previous reports on a given engine shows the development of trends. Moitoring these trends enables early detection of internal abnormalties. Tested values falling within acceptable limits may show a patteren of subtle varience, which could signal a developing problem.

Example: I have a friend who uses the Amsoil engine oils and by-pass oil filtration system in a GMC 1 ton Diesel truck. He had the oil in the truck for over 75,000 miles without a change, and had been doing periodic oil analysis. Then out of the blue, he sent in a sample, and was called on the telephone that he had a problem in the engine, as the oil sample showed a high level of silicone(dirt)in it. Their suggestion was to check the induction system of the engine.

This he did, and the problem was a cracked intake hose between the air filter housing and the throttle body housing. This hose is similar to the Dodge/Cummins, as it has a sharp bend in the rubber hose. The crack was found on the inside radius of the rubber hose, where it was not visible without taking the hose completely off!

Now, do you think the the oil analysis in this particular case was not beneficial?

In my 17 years of doing oil analysis on various vehicles, I have seen other oil analysis results that have also saved catastrophic results.

I also was in aviation bussiness, and I know we did oil analysis all the time on the engines in the aircraft. They provided us with a welth of information!

Thanks for the debate,

Wayne
amsoilman

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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.

 

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I wouldn't deviate from the manufacturer's suggested oil change plan no matter what Amsoil or any Amsoil dealer recommends. I think a periodic oil analysis is a good idea, but to change your oil at the recommended time. If you don't change your oil and the analysis comes back several weeks later with bad results, you'll have been running the infected oil that much longer. If you had changed the oil at the recommended time, not only would you not be runnning infected oil, but you would have still kept your warranty if anything was wrong with the components of the engine.

Why is it that Cummins recommends different oil change intervals depending on the usage and conditions of the vehicle, but Amsoil always recommends primary filter change at 10,000 miles? Anytime you see a comparison between Amsoil and conventional, you always see a complete oil change for conventional at the most severe duty conditions (@4,000 miles), but the Amsoil at a constant 10,000 mile filter change. Point is... follow the manufacture's suggested routine and you keep both the warranty and your wallet.

-Michael

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'00 2500 RAM, RegCab, 4x2, Cummins, 6-spd, Driftwood/Agate...

 

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I had my oil analysis done by a local shop that analyzes all the cities vehicles -- buses, trucks, etc. I noticed in the Blackstone analyses that soot isn't mesured? According to my local shop that's a fairly important measurement in a Diesel engine -- nitrates being the most dominant byproduct of gasoline combustion engines and soot being the most dominant byproduct of a diesel engine. I. e. measuring nitrates isn't very important in a diesel engine (of-course, you must still measure TBN and so forth).

Anyways: here's my numbers from a 98. 5 ISB, 44000 miles on odo, PowerMaxed, K&N conical filter, 4" exhaust. 4,000 miles on the PB2000 15w40, 4,000 miles on the stratopore filter.

Wear Metals:
Aluminum 0
Chromium 0
Copper 0
Iron 27
Lead 6
Tin 0
Silicon 0
Potassium 0
Sodium 2

Physical Properties:
Water 0. 1
Oxidation 5. 9
Visc@100 14. 4
Glycol NotDetected
Fuel <0. 1
TBN 12. 8
SAE 45
Soot <0. 1

If the TBN of new Amsoil is 12, this means PB2000 after 4000 miles has a better TBN than new Amsoil.

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Big MAK
98. 5 ISB 5spd 4x4 Quad Cab 3500, 4" Exhaust elbow down, PowerMax1, dang near everything else
https://www.turbodieseltrucks.com



[This message has been edited by Mark Kitchell (edited 01-25-2000). ]

 

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Mark, TBN is a good thing to have but too much is not good. TBN shows the amount of additive that counteracts acids. It also is what leaves deposits on valves (very bad). Since fuel sulphur was lowered the TDR is not as much a factor as it was in the past. This means that you can do better with a slightly lower TBN than you could before the reduction in fuel sulphur. So, your statement that your oil is better than Amsoil is not correct. When doing oil analysis you have to look at the whole picture not just one thing.
Sincerely, Kevin Dinwiddie

 

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Actually, I didn't say my oil was better than Amsoil. I said it had a better TBN than Amsoil. Thanks for filling me in on what that meant though; I'm new to this oil analysis stuff.

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Big MAK
98. 5 ISB 5spd 4x4 Quad Cab 3500, 4" Exhaust elbow down, PowerMax1, dang near everything else
https://www.turbodieseltrucks.com