Oil Sample Results and Dealer questions.

[Newsa]

I will use 5w-40 for the first time this summer because of the Rotella rebate. But i generally run Amsoil 15w-40.

If the prices were the same, I always opt for the oil with the fewest thickening additives. An oil that has fewer thickening additives is typically a better option for hot weather. IMHO.

15W - 40 flows well enough at my climate's ambient temps.... pretty much year round. One could argue that 5w- 40 will protect better at engine start up even when it is 90+ degrees out because it will flow quicker? *Maybe.

The disadvantage with a wide range viscosity oil like 5w-40 is that the shear forces and higher heat levels of a diesel can cause the thickening agents to decompose. The thickening agents are carbon/nitrogen polymers that when broken into smaller molecules can turn into gum (which can tug at piston rings and the like.)
This can happen with all multiweight oils. But since 5W-40 has more thickening additives than 15W-40, 5w-40 is in my opinion best reserved for when it is needed at lower ambient temps.

The fewer additives you have in your oil to make it thicker, the more protective oil you have per ml *of volume. *The thickening agents aren't slick like the oil is. And the thickening agents will break down faster than the base oil that it is being carried in.

Even if i drove 30,000+ miles per year, i wouldn't run my oil 15,000 miles. Oil analysis will tell you most of the important detials. But will it tell you the characteristics of the particles in your oil? I run 2 filters. The mopar full flow filter and an Amsoil Bypass filter. I hope the gum gets caught in the filter with that extra filtration and the 3 micron insurance of the amsoil.

 

[Freidhof]

I sent a spec sheet back to my service manager on the my choice of oil. He wrote back that it looks like good oil. Think we'll close the chapter on that!

 

[JR]

I will use 5w-40 for the first time this summer because of the Rotella rebate. But i generally run Amsoil 15w-40.

If the prices were the same, I always opt for the oil with the fewest thickening additives. An oil that has fewer thickening additives is typically a better option for hot weather. IMHO.

15W - 40 flows well enough at my climate's ambient temps.... pretty much year round. One could argue that 5w- 40 will protect better at engine start up even when it is 90+ degrees out because it will flow quicker? *Maybe.

The disadvantage with a wide range viscosity oil like 5w-40 is that the shear forces and higher heat levels of a diesel can cause the thickening agents to decompose. The thickening agents are carbon/nitrogen polymers that when broken into smaller molecules can turn into gum (which can tug at piston rings and the like.)

The fewer additives you have in your oil to make it thicker, the more protective oil you have per ml *of volume. *The thickening agents aren't slick like the oil is. And the thickening agents will break down faster than the base oil that it is being carried in.
.

You've got that backwards. *From the Amsoil website:

"Viscosity index refers to the temperature-viscosity relationship of lubricating fluids. Oils with a high viscosity index (VI) are less affected by temperature; those with low VI are affected more. Oils with a VI less than 120 (Groups I & II) are more susceptible to viscosity variance due to temperature. The viscosity index of synthetic base oils is higher than that of conventional petroleum base oils."


https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/articles/conventional-vs-synthetics/


Conventional 15w40 is more than capable of providing adequate protection in all but the most extreme conditions, but to say it is superior in any way to synthetic is simply wrong.*

 

[Newsa]

You've got that backwards. *From the Amsoil website:

"Viscosity index refers to the temperature-viscosity relationship of lubricating fluids. Oils with a high viscosity index (VI) are less affected by temperature; those with low VI are affected more. Oils with a VI less than 120 (Groups I & II) are more susceptible to viscosity variance due to temperature. The viscosity index of synthetic base oils is higher than that of conventional petroleum base oils."


https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/articles/conventional-vs-synthetics/


Conventional 15w40 is more than capable of providing adequate protection in all but the most extreme conditions, but to say it is superior in any way to synthetic is simply wrong.*

I was comparing 5w 40 synthetic to 15w 40 synthetic. * I didn't *mention the word synthetic or the word conventional. *But since i mentioned amsoil who specializes in synthetics (although they do offer a blend), and rotella. *In my mind i was comparing 2 grades of synthetic. *But i should have specified. * I believe most things are accurate on these companies products and websites. *But i also realize the facts might also be embellished by a bit of marketing hype?

I have used exclusively full synthetic for at least 18years. * So i gave up on conventional long ago.
I have always believed synthetic is better

 

[JR]

My mistake, I assumed you were speaking of conventional on the 15w40 end. Amsoil is the only manufacturer that makes a full synthetic 15w40, all others are either a blend or conventional oil.*

 

[Newsa]

A 5w40 does not have the same viscosity as a 15w40......

I would also like to point out the truth in this statement and correct my above post. * I used the terms "thickener"/"thickening agents".

Viscosity improvers will never make the multi weight oil thicker than it's base oil. *So comparing a 5w 40 at room temp vs the same oil at 200 degrees,...... *the hot oil will not be thicker (more viscous) than the same oil when it was cold.

Likewise, the hot 15w/40 will thin out when hot. *But it will never be more viscous than the same oil when it is cold.

 

[Newsa]

Amsoil is the only manufacturer that makes a full synthetic 15w40, all others are either a blend or conventional oil.*

That i didn't know.


On another note, Valvoline needs to come up with a $15 rebate ($5/gallon) for their 5w/40. I like that better than Rotella, but am too cheap.

 

[JR]

There may be other boutique oil companies like Amsoil *that also does full synthetic 15w40 (perhaps Redline or Royal Purple?) But as to the major oil companies, nobody makes a full synthetic 15w40. If you want full synthetic you must go to 5w40.*

 

[BLNRAY]

If i could figure out how to post pictures icould show the top end of my engine,valve cover,rocker box removed to do injectors a couple weeks ago,no soot deposits,clean as a new engine it has spent its entire 415,000 mile life on Mobil 1 5w-40,and 10,000 mile oil changes.have worked on diesels since 77 and can tell you the soot and other deposits in a conventional oil,30w,40w or 15w-40 grow with age.So my vote is for synthetic,in every thing i own.

 

[Newsa]

If i could figure out how to post pictures icould show the top end of my engine,valve cover,rocker box removed to do injectors a couple weeks ago,no soot deposits,clean as a new engine it has spent its entire 415,000 mile life on Mobil 1 5w-40,and 10,000 mile oil changes.have worked on diesels since 77 and can tell you the soot and other deposits in a conventional oil,30w,40w or 15w-40 grow with age.So my vote is for synthetic,in every thing i own.

Cummins? *How much/how often do you tow?
My conventional wisdom would be to go with 15/40 synthetic if towimg heavy and in mountains.
However, your experience with Mobil 1 synthetic is interesting.

 

[BLNRAY]

Cummins? *How much/how often do you tow?
My conventional wisdom would be to go with 15/40 synthetic if towimg heavy and in mountains.
However, your experience with Mobil 1 synthetic is interesting.

dont tow much anymore i was in the rv,boat,pretty much anything you could tow with a pick-up job for several years towing all over the lower 48.weight? some light some i should have left alone,but if the money was right.....

 

[JR]

This is not *relevant to the 4th gen section *but here is my recent UOA with 5w40 with nearly 18k miles. I change my oil once a year, which is generally around 15k miles but we bought a camper last year and put some good miles on the ol girl last summer.* Wear metals were very low and TBN was just shy of 7. * Could easily put many more miles on according to *the report but I don't like stretching much beyond a year.*

http://schaeffer.rmrdevelopment.com/reports-printreport.asp?batchno=25776&sampno=626399

 

[Cummins2014]

That i didn't know.


On another note, Valvoline needs to come up with a $15 rebate ($5/gallon) for their 5w/40. I like that better than Rotella, but am too cheap.

If I may ask, what makes you like Valvoline better than Rotella. Just curious, I have run plain old 15-40 Rotella now for nearly 18 years in my diesel trucks, without issue.

I need to ask, when you get a report from Blackstone , and its not good ,then what. I assume more frequent oil changes ? Into a shop to have looked at ?, just curious what follows after a report thats NOT good.

 

[Newsa]

If I may ask, what makes you like Valvoline better than Rotella. Just curious, I have run plain old 15-40 Rotella now for nearly 18 years in my diesel trucks, without issue.

It is mostly personal preference. My father who was a test engineer (now retired) at Caterpillar Tractor always believed that Valvoline lubes were always the best. I think it comes from his experience with testing machines.

It was understood at Cat Proving Grounds in East Peoria, Illinois that Valvoline had top of the industry quality control. So everyone used Valvoline.

He used Valvoline for the 45 years that I helped him change oil in our vehicles. He always used conventional oil, and followed manufacturer oil change intervals.

Now, I believe all companies have improved their quality control procedures, so now it probably doesn't matter what brand you use. It is believed that Caterpillar lubricants are rebranded Valvoline lubes. But that is surely
privileged info that would be difficult to verify.

He wouldn't ever tell anyone a whole lot about what happened at work because he was bound (and he respected his employer) by a confidentiality agreement that prevented him from divulging any Caterpillar secrets, or pre-patent engineering designs.

I will be using Shell Rotella this summer because I got a great price on it. I was just rusing about getting some Valvoline at the same price. Full synthetics from both of these companies are top of the line.

 

[Cummins2014]

It is mostly personal preference. My father who was a test engineer (now retired) at Caterpillar Tractor always believed that Valvoline lubes were always the best. I think it comes from his experience with testing machines.

It was understood at Cat Proving Grounds in East Peoria, Illinois that Valvoline had top of the industry quality control. So everyone used Valvoline.

He used Valvoline for the 45 years that I helped him change oil in our vehicles. He always used conventional oil, and followed manufacturer oil change intervals.

Now, I believe all companies have improved their quality control procedures, so now it probably doesn't matter what brand you use. It is believed that Caterpillar lubricants are rebranded Valvoline lubes. But that is surely
privileged info that would be difficult to verify.

He wouldn't ever tell anyone a whole lot about what happened at work because he was bound (and he respected his employer) by a confidentiality agreement that prevented him from divulging any Caterpillar secrets, or pre-patent engineering designs.

I will be using Shell Rotella this summer because I got a great price on it. I was just rusing about getting some Valvoline at the same price. Full synthetics from both of these companies are top of the line.

Thanks, was just curious. I probably was pretty close to 30 years when dealing with just gasoline vehicles that I would use nothing but Valvoline, or Pennzoil, but these days I would probably use any major brand, not convinced the expensive snake oil synthetics are all that great. I guess if I was looking to get 500K out of a diesel I might use the expensive stuff. But to have a modern day vehicle last 100k its not a issue.

 

[DJAustin]

I'm looking at my latest Blackstone report for my 14. Also have high Potassium ( 69 universal average is 8) and Sodium (20 universal average is 6) which could indicate anti-freeze. Iron is up from 70 to 93 (universal average is 24) and Aluminum is up from 4 to 12. (Universal average is 3). As my truck was in the shop anyway, I showed the report to the service adviser. He had never seen one before and wanted to know why I do an analysis. I didn't go into with him. Sample taken at 26,000 miles at which time I changed the oil. 13,800 on the sample. Blackstone recommend re-sampling when the new oil has 10,000 on it. Anyone else seeing high Potassium and Sodium? Coolant level has remained full but I don't imagine it would take much to contaminate the oil. Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme Synthetic 5w-40.

 

[AH64ID]

Honest question, above freezing towing heavy what one will protect my engine the best?

Comparing just the two Valvoline oils the 15w-40 conventional has slightly better hot oil characteristics at 100°C. Both of them meet the Cummins minimum requirements.

The 5w-40 is much thinner at 40°C, as one would expect.

The 15w-40 also has better 150° sheer characteristics.

Amsoil synthetic 15w-40 has the pour point of a 5w-40 synthetic with the same high temp sheer rating and a very similar high temp viscosity.

At operating temperatures the high temperature sheer is, IMHO, more important that minor differences in viscosity and the Premium Blue Extreme isn't as good as the 15w-40 which is surprising considering that it's a synthetic oil.

Lots of things to look at but I think a full synthetic 15w-40 is probably the best answer and can, generally, operate in the same temps as a 5w-40 synthetic.

The 15w-40 I run has a pour point of -38°C and the 5w-40 premium blue extreme has a pour point of -39°C, both of which are far better suited than the conventional 15w-40's...some of which have pour points in the -20's.

The OE Amsoil Diesel 15w-40 actually, aside from TBN, has some very impressive specs. The lower TBN just means it won't be good for extended intervals but it's more than adequate for OEM intervals.

 

[Newsa]

Comparing just the two Valvoline oils the 15w-40 conventional has slightly better hot oil characteristics at 100°C. Both of them meet the Cummins minimum requirements.

The 5w-40 is much thinner at 40°C, as one would expect.

The 15w-40 also has better 150° sheer characteristics.

Amsoil synthetic 15w-40 has the pour point of a 5w-40 synthetic with the same high temp sheer rating and a very similar high temp viscosity.

At operating temperatures the high temperature sheer is, IMHO, more important that minor differences in viscosity and the Premium Blue Extreme isn't as good as the 15w-40 which is surprising considering that it's a synthetic oil.

Lots of things to look at but I think a full synthetic 15w-40 is probably the best answer and can, generally, operate in the same temps as a 5w-40 synthetic.

The 15w-40 I run has a pour point of -38°C and the 5w-40 premium blue extreme has a pour point of -39°C, both of which are far better suited than the conventional 15w-40's...some of which have pour points in the -20's.

The OE Amsoil Diesel 15w-40 actually, aside from TBN, has some very impressive specs. The lower TBN just means it won't be good for extended intervals but it's more than adequate for OEM intervals.

I have learned alot from this discussion and from the UOA's posted recently. *The cheaper amsoil 15w- 40 full synthetic is the best oil available for my application.

I find the metal presence in the oil analyses concerning. *I was wondering if it is just because Cummins tightened their tolerances. *i don't know that Cummins tightened their tolerances. Everything seems to suggest that the parts are retained from previous versions of the Cummins with same tolerances. Time will tell if the 2013+ is still a 500,000 to 800,000 mile engine.

 

[JR]

Blackstone's universal averages are mainly for reference and IMO should not be directly compared. *Too many variables involved.*

I've owned a couple of high mileage Ford 4.6 engines. One of them has had iron readings ranging from high 40's to low 60's it's entire life. Schaeffers has never flagged it and considers it normal wear . 220k miles and counting. *

Establishing a trend will go a long ways into determining what is "average" or normal for your engine.*

 

[Freidhof]

Just got my latest oil sample back, potassium has almost doubled (35 to 62), Aluminum rose from 10 to 16, and still showing a trace of water. I had thought on the last oil sample at 22500, that I may have not had the engine as warm as I should have and could have been condensation. I made sure that everything was hot, so should have any condensate boiled out. Pulled a new sample with about 2000 miles on the oil, and then back to the dealer to see what they say.